its all about the surface area. i assume the flask you were using had an opening of between three and five cm? try using a wide shallow pan or a big bowl. and the oil layer doesnt have to be super thick, maybe 5mm. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Logan vilas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol)
> Doesn't castor oil absorb alcohol? If so the heat would cause the alcohol > to > evaporate out of the water, but it would combine with the Castor oil. That > should raise the alcohol boiling point. Maybe once the Castor oil becomes > saturated with alcohol then any remaining alcohol would appear on the > surface. Also maybe raising the temp more but keeping it under water's > boiling point would cause it to boil out of the castor oil, but keep the > water below the castor. > > Logan Vilas > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street > Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:23 AM > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) > > Hi Tom > > Well I put a couple of bottles of my hooch in a flask and dumped enough > castor oil on top to form a layer about 2cm thick. Heated to 60 degrees C > and started to nod off while waiting for something to happen. So I went > to > bed and left the hot plate on overnight......well in the morning......I > crept downstairs....full of anticipation, like a child on Chritmas morning > and......there was this collosal.....huge.......disappointment. There was > nothing interesting. Even though I had crossed my heart and hoped to die. > So > I reduced the oil layer to about 2mm to try again. It is stormy here > today > and the temperature controller I am using is digital and uses pulse > control > for power modulation with a solid state relay. I didn't feel comfortable > leaving the experiment running while I went to work in case of a surge on > the electrical which could result in the loss of the relay and the hot > plate > then running full blast so I shut it down. I'll try again over the > weekend > if I can. It looks like the diffusion rate of alcohol through the castor > oil is depressingly slow. It may still work though but may require a lot > of > time. If so it might be a candidate for some type of solar heated affair > that you just let sit for days. Dunno. It's no majik bullet at least. > Maybe seives is still the best bet. Haven't tried corn grits yet > either.... > > Joe > > Thomas Kelly wrote: > > > Joe, > What's the word? > I've had my fingers, eyes,and heart (?) crossed for days now > ..... on the edge of my seat, "waiting a shivers" for the results of the > castor oil screen/ pinot noir experiment. My fingers and eyes are holding > up > but my heart is starting to cramp up. > Encouraging? Discouraging? Inconclusive? > > If I recall correctly, any response with the term bat guano in > it means > "Sorry, I don't want to talk about it." > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Street <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:09 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was Making Methanol) > > Hi Tom; > > Yes you got the idea I am thinking about. I worked a bit on > the setup last night. I've got some old pinot noir I made a few years > back > ( which is a difficult grape at the best of times) which is a bout a 0000 > on > the dryness scale. I'll take a bottle or two and put it in a flask and > pour > in some castor oil which will float on the surface. Since the flask > narrows at the top it won't take too much castor oil to form the barrier > layer. I'll heat to just below the boiling point and see what happens. > Perhaps the alcohol molecules will drag some water with them as you said. > The only way to know is to find out. In the very least I'll have some > high > potency ethanol for making herbal tinctures. If I'm lucky I'll have dry > ethanol!! Fingers crossed, eyes crossed, heart crossed, hoping to find > out..... > > Tirah > Joe > > Thomas Kelly wrote: > > > Hi Joe, > I didn't follow you when you wrote: > "I am really curious about the castor oil trick. I > wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is already > over > 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. If there > was > a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you could do > something like normal distillation through the oil layer evaporating pure > alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually removing it from the > water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course the goal is to > move to ethyl eventually as well." > > I thought the idea was to dissolve the > distilled alcohol in castor oil, then remove the water that does not > dissolve and then proceed to distill the alcohol from the castor oil. > > This would require alcohol to be highly soluble > in castor oil (or a lot of castor oil). The more soluble, I think, the > more > energy to distill the alcohol out. > > What you are saying, if I have it right, > reminds me of a selectively permeable membrane. A fairly small volume of > castor oil floating on a large volume of hydrated alcohol would, in a > sense, > act to select which molecules get to pass from the bottom layer (liquid) > to > the top layer (vapor). > Even at low temps (35 - 40C?), the alcohol would > vaporize from the castor oil. As it was removed (vacuum?) from the still > its > partial pressure would remain low -------> a continuous stream from the > liquid through the castor oil to the vapor layer and out. > Would the repulsive force (hydrophobic > interaction) between water and castor oil be sufficient to prevent water > vapor from "pushing" through the oil layer into the vapor layer? > Would the interactions between the alcohol and > water allow water to travel with the alcohol through the oil? (Cotransport > systems like this occur in living cells). > > Maybe I have it all wrong. > You do have me thinking. The last time that > happened .. "harmonic mixing" ... I almost buzzed a finger on the table > saw. Today I do some grunt work ..... nothing dangerous. > > Best to you .... don't hesitate to correct > me if I have it all wrong. > > > Tom > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Street > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 4:36 PM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Ethyl Esters (was > Making Methanol) > > Well Tom; > Seives will definitely do but there are the > nagging problems we discussed. You could make a trap by welding or > modifying a suitable pressure vessel. I was thinking of using a scrapped > fire extinguisher. Put a fitting on the other end end and screens in the > bottom to keep the seive pellets inside. Wrap the whole thing with heater > tape and fiberglass insulation. That would be sweet but if you ever had a > boilover it would mean oil contaminating the seives......a risk I guess. > I am really curious about the castor oil > trick. I wonder how to do it? I think the methanol I have recovered is > already over 90% pure and I think the castor oil would sink to the bottom. > If there was a high percentage of water the oil would float on top and you > could do something like normal distillation through the oil layer > evaporating pure alcohol off the top of the oil layer and gradually > removing > it from the water below. I haven't done any experiments yet. Of course > the > goal is to move to ethyl eventually as well. > > soon > Joe > > Thomas Kelly wrote: > > > Joe, > I got a bit discouraged re: the > distillation of ethanol. > I have plans for making a > reflux still out of a beer keg. I think it will distill to 92 - 95% > purity. > A friend gave me a beer keg ..... problem: It's full of beer !!! Got to > get a tap and empty it. > > I think your idea of a trap, > containing zeolite, between the still and the condenser is a good one. > Vacuum would allow for regeneration of the zeolite at temps low enough to > be > energy efficient and would not damage the zeolite. > > How do we heat the trap? > > I'm at the beginning, middle, > end of about a dozen projects .... some have stalled due to loss of > interest .... I've got to rally. > > "Time to get back to it! We > should work together. I really want to get off the meth....;)" > > Ditto > Maybe this little methanol > price "crisis" will serve as a wake-up call ... > > Good to hear from you > Hope you're on the mend > > Tom > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Joe Street > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > biofuel@sustainablelists.org > Sent: Friday, November 24, > 2006 11:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] > Making Methanol > > Hi Tom; > > I couldn't agree more. I > have always planned to attempt ethyl esters. That's one of the reasons I > went for vacuum as I understand the limits for water are much tighter with > ethyl esters production. Don't forget about the castor oil method for > drying alcohol. I got some castor oil to experiment with but due to an > injury I have been laid up for a while and haven't done much. Time to get > back to it! We should work together. I really want to get off the > meth....;) > > Joe > > Thomas Kelly wrote: > > > Kurt, > Thanks for the > info. > Doesn't sound > like something I'll be doing at home. > People get into > producing their own BD for a variety of reasons > including the > feeling that someone's (petroleum industry) got you in a vise > and can simply > squeeze you at a whim. My concern is that methanol supply > could be the > Achille's heal of BD production. It's still the main link > between BD and > fossil fuels, and what compromises BD's carbon neutrality. I > wish I could make > it/get it from a renewable/carbon neutral source. > Jim's reminder > re: ethyl esters may get me back to looking at ethanol > production. > > Thanks again, > > Tom > > ----- Original > Message ----- > From: "Kurt Nolte" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > <biofuel@sustainablelists.org> <mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org> > Sent: Thursday, > November 23, 2006 9:38 PM > Subject: Re: > [Biofuel] Making Methanol > > > > > It's > possible, using the same process as rendering methanol from natural > gas, but as > I recall some of their catalysts are pretty nasty. Takes a > good bit of > steam, too, at least during certain portions of the process. > > -Kurt > > Thomas Kelly > wrote: > > > > It appears to be difficult to make methanol from wood. > > > Is it possible/reasonable to make methanol from methane gas? > > Methane gas generated from manure would make the methanol > > produced from it renewable and carbon neutral. > > Tom > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > _______________________________________________ > > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel > mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at > Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the > combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey > to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined > Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to > Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel > and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and > Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz > list archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list > archives (50,000 messages): > > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > ________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives > (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > ________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 > messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.431 / Virus Database: 268.15.2/560 - 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