Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
Hi Jim; Ok I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a time to 90 ml of pure methanol. This was done at 23 degrees C which is the current temperature in my work area. The hydrometers are calibrated for 15 degrees so this is more practical for my purposes. As far as Bob's comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol will do to the specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has a pretty high boiling point and my recovered methanol looks water clear so there is not much glycerin in there I think. I am going to assume it is negligible. Primarily I am doing this just to determine roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will err on the conservative side with this. It looks like my recovered methanol has less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of methanol should have less than 100 grams of water in it. If zeolite can adsorb 10% of it's weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of methanol should be sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically recover less than 3 litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a molecular seive which holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite. BTW I know it was mentioned before and is in the archives but for convenience the type of seives to use for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe upstream of the condenser. I'll get a trap with a built in heater so I can use my vacuum system to regenerate the seives. I'll then see how much water comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap. I'll be interested to see if the numbers match up. Cheers Joe JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
Joe Street wrote: Hi Jim; Ok I made up a graph by adding water one ml at a time to 90 ml of pure methanol. This was done at 23 degrees C which is the current temperature in my work area. The hydrometers are calibrated for 15 degrees so this is more practical for my purposes. As far as Bob's comment on what glycerin in the recovered methanol will do to the specific gravity, I cannot guess but glycerin has a pretty high boiling point and my recovered methanol looks water clear so there is not much glycerin in there I think. I am going to assume it is negligible. Primarily I am doing this just to determine roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the methanol. I will err on the conservative side with this. It looks like my recovered methanol has less than 10 % water (worst case) so a litre of methanol should have less than 100 grams of water in it. If zeolite can adsorb 10% of it's weight in water then 1Kg of zeolite per litre of methanol should be sufficient. Here is the chart. Since I typically recover less than 3 litres of methanol at a time I'll look for a molecular seive which holds at least 3 Kg of zeolite. BTW I know it was mentioned before and is in the archives but for convenience the type of seives to use for this is 3A. Best place for this is in the pipe upstream of the condenser. I'll get a trap with a built in heater so I can use my vacuum system to regenerate the seives. I'll then see how much water comes out of the zeolite and collects in the trap. I'll be interested to see if the numbers match up. So will I keep me posted Joe. Jim Cheers Joe Graph of methanol_water specific gravity. JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:19 PM, JJJN wrote: Would you have some baseline readings? and can you tell 85% from 95% with one of these? They typically read off in percentage by volume of alcohol, as well as proof and Baumé (whatever that is :-)). You can easily tell 98% from 99%. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
For liquids heavier than water: 0 °Bé = distance the hydrometer sinks in pure water 15 °Bé = distance the hydrometer sinks in a solution that is 15% sodium chloride (salt, NaCl) by mass. To convert from °Bé to specific gravity at 60 degrees Fahrenheit: specific gravity = 145/(145 - °Bé) For liquids lighter than water: 0 °Bé = distance the hydrometer sinks in a solution that is 10% sodium chloride (salt, NaCl) by mass 10 °Bé = distance the hydrometer sinks in pure water. To convert from °Bé to specific gravity at 60 degrees Fahrenheit: specific gravity = 140/(130 + °Bé) (whew) Ken Provost wrote: On Sep 4, 2006, at 7:19 PM, JJJN wrote: Would you have some baseline readings? and can you tell 85% from 95% with one of these? They typically read off in percentage by volume of alcohol, as well as proof and Baumé (whatever that is :-)). You can easily tell 98% from 99%. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
Hi Jim; Yes I got a couple of hydrometers 0.79 to 0.90 range and rather than try to find calibration tables for temperature etc I decided the thing to do is take some fresh pure methanol and measure it's SG at room temperature (about 20 degrees C in my place) and then add some measured amounts of room temperature water and record the SG values. I haven't done it yet but will make a post when I do. I am interested in determining how much water is in my recovered methanol, so I can gauge roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the stuff. I expect to be somewhere in the range of 10% water or so hence the hydrometer range I bought works for the lower end water content. I measued some recovered methanol I got from glycerin and it was 0.813 at RT and I measured another bunch that I cut off earlier in the process and it measured 0.798. I'll give the more meaningful numbers soon. Joe JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
a confounding variable in determining water in methanol (recovered from the glycerin cocktail) depending on the distillation set up besides water and methanol you will also get glycerin- depending on the temperature and number of theoretical plates in your still. How a small amount of glycerin will impact the density of the possibly ternary mixture, I don't know- Joe Street wrote: Hi Jim; Yes I got a couple of hydrometers 0.79 to 0.90 range and rather than try to find calibration tables for temperature etc I decided the thing to do is take some fresh pure methanol and measure it's SG at room temperature (about 20 degrees C in my place) and then add some measured amounts of room temperature water and record the SG values. I haven't done it yet but will make a post when I do. I am interested in determining how much water is in my recovered methanol, so I can gauge roughly how much zeolite I need to dry the stuff. I expect to be somewhere in the range of 10% water or so hence the hydrometer range I bought works for the lower end water content. I measued some recovered methanol I got from glycerin and it was 0.813 at RT and I measured another bunch that I cut off earlier in the process and it measured 0.798. I'll give the more meaningful numbers soon. Joe JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? Joe were you working on something like this? Jim ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
On Sep 3, 2006, at 9:48 PM, JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? The hydrometers you can get at a homebrew shop (or on the web) work fine for methanol -- the densities of methanol and ethanol are practically the same. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Testing H2O in Methanol
Would you have some baseline readings? and can you tell 85% from 95% with one of these? Jim Ken Provost wrote: On Sep 3, 2006, at 9:48 PM, JJJN wrote: Does any one know of a good test to determine the amount of water in methanol? The hydrometers you can get at a homebrew shop (or on the web) work fine for methanol -- the densities of methanol and ethanol are practically the same. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
