Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[dwoodard]

I would say Bergey
http://www.bergey.com

and African Windpower.

Bear in mind that I have no personal experience, and I am speaking merely
from reading comments on the internet. There may be one or two other
small-volume NA makes, and some rather expensive Europeans on whose
records I haven't seen comment. I'm not including the small turbines for
yachts, some of which which I gather are pretty good for their intended
use.

If you want to read through the archives at
http://yahoogroups.com/group/awea-wind-home
(paying special attention to the posts of Hugh Piggott and Michael Klemen)

and maybe back issues of Home Power magazien, you'll know as much as I do.

Paul Gipe may have some test results on his site
http://www.wind-works.org

The small wind turbine industry seems to be a magnet for promoters and
scam artists. Caveat emptor. Act like you're from Missouri.

For people wanting to build their own, Hugh Piggott's site
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
and his books offer a good starting point.

You can dig out the URL of Michael Klemen's website with test results,
from the awea-wind-home archives.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada



On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Jerry T Van Horn wrote:

> The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market, which
> > have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
> > small (I would say 2). 
> Doug, which 2?
> Jerry, Wi.
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Hakan Falk]

Doug,

The Danes have done a good job with wind, but it was not
as well planned as many now want to describe it.

The Danish wind industry grow out of a crisis and the heavy
design was natural. It was built as alternative job creation for
a ship building industry in a downward spiral.

Hakan


At 11:49 PM 1/19/2005, you wrote:

Greg, I'm not exactly sure what you're driving at here.

It is not the case that small wind turbines generally use lower windspeeds
than large ones. In any case there is relatively little energy in the
lower windspeeds. Remember that power in the wind varies as the cube of
the windspeed, as well as with air dendity. And windspeed is very
sensitive to location as well as height above ground (and obstacles).

The design of a wind turbine for a particular windspeed depends mostly on
the local wind regime, not the size of the turbine.

If we have a grid then we are going to need multiple wind turbines on just
about any grid, so there is no argument for few turbines. Multiple
turbines in different locations even a few hundred metres apart are very
helpful in smoothing out wind power delivered.

For increasing the availability of wind power, we need turbines
distributed over a few hundred miles/kilometers. This effect is useful
but we still need storage or alternative sources of electricity.
There is a good graph on page 674 of the second (2000) edition of Bent
Sorensen's "Renewable Energy" (Academic Press). It's also in the first
edition at a different page number.

Storage for small turbines usually employs lead-acid batteries at present.
Other battery types are possible including "flow batteries" with fuel cell
type membrane technology and cycle efficiencies of 70-85%. Where variable
stream flows are tolerable, hydro power can be integrated with wind.
Compressed air storage with gas turbines is promising where natural gas is
available; perhaps ultimately with hydrogen.

Catalytic production of hydrogen with solar heat looks promising (see
http://www.shec-labs.com  ). This suggests that electrolytic production of
hydrogen from wind power may be useful for storage if we are going to have
hydrogen produced by solar power.

In most places in North America, most of the wind energy comes in winter,
so integration of solar and wind energy is obvious. For stationary
applications storage of hydrogen in caverns under moderate pressure may
not be too expensive, especially when waste heat of combined cycle gas
turbines and fuel cells can be used for heating water, and in winter,
buildings.

I don't think the notion of the high-tech energy-independent household is
practical, at least where wind energy is concerned, and in areas with grid
access. For a long time to come, transmission will be cheaper than
storage. In unusually favoured ares wind turbines may be widespread, but
in general wind energy like retail sales is a matter of
"location, location, location". Solar energy is a different matter.

Bear in mind that a nuclear-family household with investment apportioned
rationally between efficiency and supply would need wind electric
generating rated capacity of 3-10 kilowatts. However I don't think
that nuclear-family households will be the way of the future.

You might think in terms of the "traditional" Danish pattern of
individual local investors or cooperatives putting up one or a few
*efficiently sized* turbines to supply themselves and their neighbours;
with "storage" in the grid supplied by other wind turbines elsewhere,
thermal power, and power exchanged with the Norwegian hydro system.

This is made possible by Danish law which requires that wind electricity
of the requisite quality must be paid for by the grid companies at a price
which includes the avoided health and environmental costs of burning
fossil fuels (coal in the Danish case).

It seems that the greatest efficiency in the use of materials comes at a
moderate size of turbine. It may be that as the price of energy and
mineral resources goes up the most economical size of wind turbine will
drop, but I don't expect that to happen for some time. Wooden blades for
example can be used on quite large turbines.

Early in the development of industrial wind turbines there was a notable
divergence between American designers influenced by aerospace practice who
emphasized light weight too much and reliability not enough, and Danish
designers employed by farm equipment manufacturers who entered the
wind turbine business, who were not afraid of weight but aimed at
durability, reliability and low cost. The Danes turned out to be
right. I think we may assume that low life cycle cost reflects overall
resource consumption better than turbine and generator (nacelle) weight.

The design of wind turbines including small ones is *very* demanding.
The wind is a very difficult environment for a rotating machine on a light
mounting. The economics of small wind turbines need mass production to
spread the cost of engineering over a long production run,

RE: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Ken Gotberg]

Hi Peggy

Ethanol is a high value fuel to make for the farm.  Anaerobic digestion
to methane would be a better choice with higher yield.  

>From lignocellulose feed stock to ethanol the maximum yield is ~40%
with actual yields being lower than this depending on the pretreatment
(half of the mass is lost as carbon dioxide).  Lets say $30 per ton
corn stover ($60 per ton is more normal) and $0.10 for cellulases
($0.50 now) for a total cost of:

Best case scenario ($30/0.4)/(334 gallons per metric ton) + $010 =
$0.32

More likely scenario ($60/0.25)/(334gallons per metric ton) + $0.50 =
$0.95

This leaves out the cost of pretreatment method and waste disposable,
again a function of pretreatment (acid, base, steam explosion, ammonia,
etc).

I’m taking the approach of cheap (<$10 per metric ton) rice straw
feedstock available where I live and living fungus.  Everything can be
done in water tanks with an overall yield of ~10%.

Our cost ($10/0.10)/(334 gallons per metric ton) = $0.30 complete.

Best regards,

Ken

--- Peggy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Todd: Sure would like to see the economics of politics get ratcheted
> down a 
> half-dozen notches to something that resembles living within a
> country's
> 
> means.
> 
> Hello Todd,
> 
> Just a note about a few demonstrations that are being activated...
> There is now a push with the Department of Agriculture to eliminate
> subsidies (and that's another issue).  However, they are reviewing
> proposals to highlight farmers who are living within their means and
> offering smaller production facilities.  A few examples are as
> follows:
> Small dairies can produce their own distiller's grain and use the
> fuel
> ethanol that is produced in the process as fuel for running
> irrigation
> pumps or producing biodiesel and the systems also generate
> electricity
> for farm use while producing the fuel ethanol.  One Arkansas farmer
> plans to demonstrate this as an exemplary model starting this spring.
> Also, a crop rotation program between corn and sugar beet can provide
> feedstock for small fuel ethanol facilities across Montana and
> eliminate
> the need for subsidies.  The best part is that farmers can have the
> option to either sell to the sugar producers or produce fuel
> ethanol--whichever offers the best market value.  Another subsidy
> elimination demonstration project is being planned for sugar cane
> growers in South Texas.  Changes in traditional agricultural
> practices
> within the past few decades are planned.  Awareness and attention to
> the
> successes can make a huge difference right now.  Hopefully, this kind
> of
> self-sufficient activity will snowball into general acceptance and
> the
> producer retains his individuality in the process.  It's a very
> exciting
> time to be active in these pursuits.  
> 
> 
> Best wishes,
> Peggy
> 
> ___
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 


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RE: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Peggy]

For all your wisdom, your sense of humor is best.  Thanks for another
smile.

Peggy


There are exceptions to many rules Bob.

I think that if I'm still alive to see the day of sane energy and ag 
policies and don't need someone to kick start my lungs to blow up those 
balloons, I'd rather have as many celebrants as care to show up, not
have to 
screen and halt them at the door for latex allergies..., or peanut 
allergies..., or dairy allergies..., or chocolate allergies..., or
aversion 
to GMO foods..., or ...

Whatever..

I'm not holding my breath.

Todd Swearingen

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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[dwoodard]

Greg, I'm not exactly sure what you're driving at here.

It is not the case that small wind turbines generally use lower windspeeds
than large ones. In any case there is relatively little energy in the
lower windspeeds. Remember that power in the wind varies as the cube of
the windspeed, as well as with air dendity. And windspeed is very
sensitive to location as well as height above ground (and obstacles).

The design of a wind turbine for a particular windspeed depends mostly on
the local wind regime, not the size of the turbine.

If we have a grid then we are going to need multiple wind turbines on just
about any grid, so there is no argument for few turbines. Multiple
turbines in different locations even a few hundred metres apart are very
helpful in smoothing out wind power delivered.

For increasing the availability of wind power, we need turbines
distributed over a few hundred miles/kilometers. This effect is useful
but we still need storage or alternative sources of electricity.
There is a good graph on page 674 of the second (2000) edition of Bent
Sorensen's "Renewable Energy" (Academic Press). It's also in the first
edition at a different page number.

Storage for small turbines usually employs lead-acid batteries at present.
Other battery types are possible including "flow batteries" with fuel cell
type membrane technology and cycle efficiencies of 70-85%. Where variable
stream flows are tolerable, hydro power can be integrated with wind.
Compressed air storage with gas turbines is promising where natural gas is
available; perhaps ultimately with hydrogen.

Catalytic production of hydrogen with solar heat looks promising (see
http://www.shec-labs.com  ). This suggests that electrolytic production of
hydrogen from wind power may be useful for storage if we are going to have
hydrogen produced by solar power.

In most places in North America, most of the wind energy comes in winter,
so integration of solar and wind energy is obvious. For stationary
applications storage of hydrogen in caverns under moderate pressure may
not be too expensive, especially when waste heat of combined cycle gas
turbines and fuel cells can be used for heating water, and in winter,
buildings.

I don't think the notion of the high-tech energy-independent household is
practical, at least where wind energy is concerned, and in areas with grid
access. For a long time to come, transmission will be cheaper than
storage. In unusually favoured ares wind turbines may be widespread, but
in general wind energy like retail sales is a matter of
"location, location, location". Solar energy is a different matter.

Bear in mind that a nuclear-family household with investment apportioned
rationally between efficiency and supply would need wind electric
generating rated capacity of 3-10 kilowatts. However I don't think
that nuclear-family households will be the way of the future.

You might think in terms of the "traditional" Danish pattern of
individual local investors or cooperatives putting up one or a few
*efficiently sized* turbines to supply themselves and their neighbours;
with "storage" in the grid supplied by other wind turbines elsewhere,
thermal power, and power exchanged with the Norwegian hydro system.

This is made possible by Danish law which requires that wind electricity
of the requisite quality must be paid for by the grid companies at a price
which includes the avoided health and environmental costs of burning
fossil fuels (coal in the Danish case).

It seems that the greatest efficiency in the use of materials comes at a
moderate size of turbine. It may be that as the price of energy and
mineral resources goes up the most economical size of wind turbine will
drop, but I don't expect that to happen for some time. Wooden blades for
example can be used on quite large turbines.

Early in the development of industrial wind turbines there was a notable
divergence between American designers influenced by aerospace practice who
emphasized light weight too much and reliability not enough, and Danish
designers employed by farm equipment manufacturers who entered the
wind turbine business, who were not afraid of weight but aimed at
durability, reliability and low cost. The Danes turned out to be
right. I think we may assume that low life cycle cost reflects overall
resource consumption better than turbine and generator (nacelle) weight.

The design of wind turbines including small ones is *very* demanding.
The wind is a very difficult environment for a rotating machine on a light
mounting. The economics of small wind turbines need mass production to
spread the cost of engineering over a long production run, as well as to
lower production costs. One of the keys to the rise of the Danish industry
was the early devlopment of a cooperative association of Danish wind turbine
operators, who published statistics on the operating results; electricity
production, reliability, cost, for the various makes and models; backed
up by the Danish g

Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Jerry T Van Horn]

The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market, which
> have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
> small (I would say 2). 
Doug, which 2?
Jerry, Wi.
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

I think that if I'm still alive to see the day of sane energy and ag 
policies and don't need someone to kick start my lungs to blow up those 
balloons, I'd rather have as many celebrants as care to show up, not have to 
screen and halt them at the door for latex allergies..., or peanut 
allergies..., or dairy allergies..., or chocolate allergies..., or aversion 
to GMO foods..., or ...


Whatever..

I'm not holding my breath.

Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



ou don't like latex?

Appal Energy wrote:

Would those be petroleum or bio-based party balloons for the 
celebration?



Oleo-chemical..., should the day ever come.

- Original Message - From: "Lyle Estill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

Would those be petroleum or bio-based party balloons for the 
celebration?


On Jan 19, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Appal Energy wrote:


Hello Peggy,


It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.



Not to be the token, crusty, old, curmudgeon. But I don't think I'll be 
getting overly exited and start passing out party balloons until fossil 
and nuclear fuel subsidies are also reduced/eliminated,


Lyle Estill
V.P. Stuff
Piedmont Biofuels
www.biofuels.coop
919-542-2900



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--
--
Bob 
/ozarker.org/bob --

-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness 
  
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[balaji]

Hello Tomas and all,

- Original Message -
From: "Tomas Juknevicius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> Hi,
> rough cost estimate would be 1$ for one watt of the turbine's rated
> power output.
> Current state of the art turbines are up to 5MW power, their price
> reaches, accordingly,
> 5,000,000$.
> Mainstream turbines are a little bit smaller - in the 0.5 - 2.5 MW
> range.

Energy captured by a windmill varies with air density, the square of its
diameter, and the
cube of wind velocity. So, even a small increase in windspeed yields very
significant gains in wind energy, e.g. the energy in the wind @ 6m/s is 27
times the energy in the wind at the usual cut-in speed of 2 ms/s.

"Surface roughness" on the land such as trees, man made structures and
grasses act as windbreaks, cause turbulence and dissipate the energy in the
wind leading to lower outputs at  lower altitudes. Steady state winds with
more or less laminar flows are still available at the same location but at
greater heights above ground (50 - 200 M) over the turbulent zone. Higher
windspeeds also blow during monsoons when the mean windspeeds increase.
Though the state of the art guarantees >95% machine availability, resource
availability allowing for seasonal and diurnal quiescence is typically
20-25%. Plant Load Factor (PLF) goes for a six as a consequence. Compared to
diesel generators and thermal plants, which typically operate at 70-80% PLF,
windmills operate at around 20% PLF. You therefore need to invest about US $
4 Million on a windmill compared to US $ 1 Million on a thermal power plant
to generate the same number of units. Windmills are therefore gentle giants
that use only a quarter of their capacity.

As the wind mills grow bigger (~120 M diameter), the hub height rises
(~110M), the mean windspeed is higher leading to higher electricity
output (~ 4.2 MW), even in low windspeed  regimes. This is the reason why
wind mills are becoming bigger and bigger to take advantage of the faster
windspeeds.

The problem with land based is therefore turbulence caused by "surface
roughness". There is also the small problem of land based crane capacity
which sets an upper limit on the maximum nacelle weight.

RE Power of Germany, Siemens nee Bonus of Germany Denmark, GE Power nee
Enron nee Tacke are all in the single multi MW windmill game. In India (~
2400 MW) , Tamilnadu is at the forefront with over 1500 MW installed. Suzlon
recently commissioned a 2 MW system in TN.

> Turbines, which are seated in the sea have a premium above this

OTOH, the wind regime offshore or nearshore is much better owing to very low
surface roughness. Remember all those windmills on the beaches.

In my earlier avatar as an offshore fabricator, I remember having to hold on
to the handrails for dear life out of fear of being blown right across the
upper deck/helipad. The wind regime at 25 M height out at sea is typically
what you would find at 100 - 200 M on land. This is the reason why, despite
the horrendous costs of installing offshore windmills (designing for
corrosion, wind, wave, seismic loads and their temporal variations and
synergies) and maintaining them in one of the most hostile outposts known to
engineering, besides evacuating the generated power to
the land based grid with sub sea cabling including losses, offshore
windfarms provide more bang for the buck with their better resource
availability. PLF and smaller windmill sizes for the same output.

Back in the early nineties, our group at Madras/Chennai had envisioned an
integrated offshore platform comprising a windmill above the sea,
wave energy device such as a Wells Turbine/Duck at the wind wave interface
and an ocean current energy device submerged undersea. We hope to be able to
install such a device in the next 5 years.

Regards

balaji









> Tomas Juknevicius
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Tomas Juknevicius]

Appal Energy wrote:

> > What does one of these massive wind turbines cost?
>
> Six to seven figures and better.
>

Hi,
rough cost estimate would be 1$ for one watt of the turbine's rated
power output.
Current state of the art turbines are up to 5MW power, their price
reaches, accordingly,
5,000,000$.
Mainstream turbines are a little bit smaller - in the 0.5 - 2.5 MW
range.

Turbines, which are seated in the sea have a premium above this

--
Tomas Juknevicius


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[bob allen]

Appal Energy wrote:

Would those be petroleum or bio-based party balloons for the 
celebration?



Oleo-chemical..., should the day ever come.

- Original Message - From: "Lyle Estill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

Would those be petroleum or bio-based party balloons for the 
celebration?


On Jan 19, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Appal Energy wrote:


Hello Peggy,


It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.



Not to be the token, crusty, old, curmudgeon. But I don't think I'll 
be getting overly exited and start passing out party balloons until 
fossil and nuclear fuel subsidies are also reduced/eliminated,


Lyle Estill
V.P. Stuff
Piedmont Biofuels
www.biofuels.coop
919-542-2900



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--
--
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--

-
The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises
in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral
justification for selfishness  JKG 



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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

Six to seven figures and better.

- Original Message - 
From: "Jeremy Farmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



What does one of these massive wind turbines cost?



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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

celebration?


Oleo-chemical..., should the day ever come.

- Original Message - 
From: "Lyle Estill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines 



Would those be petroleum or bio-based party balloons for the 
celebration?


On Jan 19, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Appal Energy wrote:


Hello Peggy,


It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.


Not to be the token, crusty, old, curmudgeon. But I don't think I'll 
be getting overly exited and start passing out party balloons until 
fossil and nuclear fuel subsidies are also reduced/eliminated,

Lyle Estill
V.P. Stuff
Piedmont Biofuels
www.biofuels.coop
919-542-2900


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Lyle Estill]

celebration?

On Jan 19, 2005, at 8:54 AM, Appal Energy wrote:


Hello Peggy,


It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.


Not to be the token, crusty, old, curmudgeon. But I don't think I'll 
be getting overly exited and start passing out party balloons until 
fossil and nuclear fuel subsidies are also reduced/eliminated,

Lyle Estill
V.P. Stuff
Piedmont Biofuels
www.biofuels.coop
919-542-2900

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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.


Not to be the token, crusty, old, curmudgeon. But I don't think I'll be 
getting overly exited and start passing out party balloons until fossil and 
nuclear fuel subsidies are also reduced/eliminated, sugar is out of the 
Everglades, Florida Bay has returned to its natural state and hemp is 
reintroduced as a food, fiber and fuel crop.


Something tells me that I won't live to see that day, as it's going to take 
a healthy dose of common sense in all three houses - the Senate, the House 
of Representatives and the White House.


Damage control seems to be more the order of the day, keeping constituents 
from rioting in the streets, but certainly not a sustainable market across 
the board.


Todd Swearingen

- Original Message - 
From: "Peggy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 11:27 PM
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



Todd: Sure would like to see the economics of politics get ratcheted
down a
half-dozen notches to something that resembles living within a country's

means.

Hello Todd,

Just a note about a few demonstrations that are being activated...
There is now a push with the Department of Agriculture to eliminate
subsidies (and that's another issue).  However, they are reviewing
proposals to highlight farmers who are living within their means and
offering smaller production facilities.  A few examples are as follows:
Small dairies can produce their own distiller's grain and use the fuel
ethanol that is produced in the process as fuel for running irrigation
pumps or producing biodiesel and the systems also generate electricity
for farm use while producing the fuel ethanol.  One Arkansas farmer
plans to demonstrate this as an exemplary model starting this spring.
Also, a crop rotation program between corn and sugar beet can provide
feedstock for small fuel ethanol facilities across Montana and eliminate
the need for subsidies.  The best part is that farmers can have the
option to either sell to the sugar producers or produce fuel
ethanol--whichever offers the best market value.  Another subsidy
elimination demonstration project is being planned for sugar cane
growers in South Texas.  Changes in traditional agricultural practices
within the past few decades are planned.  Awareness and attention to the
successes can make a huge difference right now.  Hopefully, this kind of
self-sufficient activity will snowball into general acceptance and the
producer retains his individuality in the process.  It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.


Best wishes,
Peggy

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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Jeremy Farmer]

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



You forget that in order to produce power we must have relative motion
between the rotor and the air. A kiting rotor will give this.

An aircraft, all other things being equal, doesn't "know" whether it's in
the jet stream or in still air. We produce forward motion of the aircraft
*through the air* by an *input* of power, or by gliding - a loss of height
through the air - which may be no loss, or a gain, relative to the ground
if the air is moving up, when the aircraft is said to be "soaring".

I read years ago that there is a region at the edge of the jetstream where
the air is moving up; power could be generated by an aircraft flying here.
Whether enough power to be worthwhile I don't know. and I rather doubt
it.

One would then have the problem of storing the energy captured and moving
it to where it could be useful.

Rather than trying to think of capyring energy where it is heavily
concentrated but very hard to capture I think we would be better off
to work on capturing it where it is cheapest on balance. Wind turbines on
towers are a pretty good compromise for areas with stronger winds.

There are many areas where wind power is the cheapest, or competitive,
especially  when we account for the external costs of other energy 
sources.


Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Party of Citizens wrote:


While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
follow its change in course as well.

POC


[snip]
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[dwoodard]

You forget that in order to produce power we must have relative motion
between the rotor and the air. A kiting rotor will give this.

An aircraft, all other things being equal, doesn't "know" whether it's in
the jet stream or in still air. We produce forward motion of the aircraft
*through the air* by an *input* of power, or by gliding - a loss of height
through the air - which may be no loss, or a gain, relative to the ground
if the air is moving up, when the aircraft is said to be "soaring".

I read years ago that there is a region at the edge of the jetstream where
the air is moving up; power could be generated by an aircraft flying here.
Whether enough power to be worthwhile I don't know. and I rather doubt
it.

One would then have the problem of storing the energy captured and moving
it to where it could be useful.

Rather than trying to think of capyring energy where it is heavily
concentrated but very hard to capture I think we would be better off
to work on capturing it where it is cheapest on balance. Wind turbines on
towers are a pretty good compromise for areas with stronger winds.

There are many areas where wind power is the cheapest, or competitive,
especially  when we account for the external costs of other energy sources.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Party of Citizens wrote:

> While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
> tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
> which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
> turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
> follow its change in course as well.
>
> POC

[snip]
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

An electrically powered machine, that produces more electricity than it
uses, is a perpetual motion machine, even if it flies.

Solar powered aircraft fly, only through the use of the best conducting
wire, the strongest rare earth permanent magnets and solar cells with the
highest power to weight ratio, not to mention an extremely aerodynamic
shape, a extremely small payload capability, and safety margins that are
non-existent ( not to mention more than a few prayers ).All it takes is
one thing to go wrong, and it falls out of the sky.I know they are
around I just don't think they are going to amount to anything other that
aerial reconnaissance or temporary communications relay platforms for an
very long time.

It doesn't matter how many solar cells you put on a aircraft, it not going
to be aerodynamic fit enough, to fly into the middle of the jet stream, with
a couple of wind turbines on it.

Once ' room temperature supper conductor wire ', becomes an everyday item,
then there is a chance, but, only a chance.I'm not going to hold my
breath.Every time I see someone promoting something like Helios as the
next step, I have to wonder, what is the ecological cost of such an item?
What is the ecological cost of making " More than 62,000 bifacial solar
cells " ,  when all it takes is a single bad electrical connection, a bit of
radio interference ( static ), to turn it in to expensive ( but useless )
rubble ?

If you want innovation, as far as long distance and endurance is concerned,
look the company that has set the standard for long endurance flights -
Scaled Composites, and the next record breaking aircraft GlobalFlyer.

1 man.Solo.Around the world.Non-stop.

Greg H.



- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 18:01
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> Solar glider/airplanes do :)
> -- 
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
> http://infoarchive.net/
> http://nnytech.net/
>


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RE: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Peggy]

Todd: Sure would like to see the economics of politics get ratcheted
down a 
half-dozen notches to something that resembles living within a country's

means.

Hello Todd,

Just a note about a few demonstrations that are being activated...
There is now a push with the Department of Agriculture to eliminate
subsidies (and that's another issue).  However, they are reviewing
proposals to highlight farmers who are living within their means and
offering smaller production facilities.  A few examples are as follows:
Small dairies can produce their own distiller's grain and use the fuel
ethanol that is produced in the process as fuel for running irrigation
pumps or producing biodiesel and the systems also generate electricity
for farm use while producing the fuel ethanol.  One Arkansas farmer
plans to demonstrate this as an exemplary model starting this spring.
Also, a crop rotation program between corn and sugar beet can provide
feedstock for small fuel ethanol facilities across Montana and eliminate
the need for subsidies.  The best part is that farmers can have the
option to either sell to the sugar producers or produce fuel
ethanol--whichever offers the best market value.  Another subsidy
elimination demonstration project is being planned for sugar cane
growers in South Texas.  Changes in traditional agricultural practices
within the past few decades are planned.  Awareness and attention to the
successes can make a huge difference right now.  Hopefully, this kind of
self-sufficient activity will snowball into general acceptance and the
producer retains his individuality in the process.  It's a very exciting
time to be active in these pursuits.  


Best wishes,
Peggy

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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Martin Klingensmith]

--
--
Martin Klingensmith
http://infoarchive.net/
http://nnytech.net/

Greg Harbican wrote:

Don't want to rain on your parade, but, perpetual motion machines don't
exist.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Party of Citizens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 13:32
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines




While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
follow its change in course as well.

POC



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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

http://www.photonics.com/spectra/tech/XQ/ASP/techid.1219/QX/read.htm

The next stage was to configure it with a battery pack to keep it aloft 
after sunset.


One stated use is to make such planes orbiting communications platforms that 
can be serviced regularly.


Something tells me that it won't all be "legit" / commercial business 
though.


- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



Don't want to rain on your parade, but, perpetual motion machines don't
exist.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Party of Citizens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 13:32
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
follow its change in course as well.

POC





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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

lean.

Actually, in all fairness, there are a few dairies in the beltway area. 
Problem is it's the government teat (to be read "taxpayer's wallet") that's 
being milked.


Sure would like to see the economics of politics get ratcheted down a 
half-dozen notches to something that resembles living within a country's 
means.


Gonna' be pure hell paying back those credit cards for the next 150 years.

Legislated slavery. Thought we were supposed to have gotten beyond that 
seven or eight wars back.



- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 6:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



Feed lots have a lot of manure to, but, no grass.

So like feedlots, politicians must be fed, good feed, only to turn it into
manure.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 14:24
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



> NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.

Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be 
a

lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there.

But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found.





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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

I know the plane exist, but, an electric aircraft with electrical wind
generators, that generates more power than it consumes, is.

And your right about it falling out of the sky, it can barely get out of
it's own way when conditions are optimum which they never for long.Did
you see pictures of the last attempt?Let's just say, it now an
industrial size jigsaw puzzle, with many tiny pieces.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 16:58
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

It's not a perpetual motion machine (the solar plane).  It consumes solar
power, converting it to mechanical enegry.  Once the sun goes out the plan
stops flying (along with a great deal other things stopping).





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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

It's been a while, last time I was up that direction, it wasn't much, I take
it, that it has grown?

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 16:53
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines




I have driven past the large wind farm just south of cheyenne, WY and its
quite a sight!



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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

That's a typo, right? Was supposed to be "routing the country?"

- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.


Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be 
a

lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there.

But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found.


Actually, there are a lot of anaerobic digesters walking around DC.
Unfortunately, they are not being used for what they are best at.
Instead, they are running the country.  At least that's what they call it.

Brian
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[DHAJOGLO]

>
>Don't want to rain on your parade, but, perpetual motion machines don't
>exist.
>

It's not a perpetual motion machine (the solar plane).  It consumes solar 
power, converting it to mechanical enegry.  Once the sun goes out the plan 
stops flying (along with a great deal other things stopping).

>Greg H.
>
We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
>> which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
>> turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
>> follow its change in course as well.
>>



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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[DHAJOGLO]

>
>NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.It is said that the
>reason that it's grassland, is that the wind blows all the snow and rain to
>Kansas.
>
>Greg H.


This is simply not true... its because Kansas sucks and Utah blows... get your 
facts straight  :P

I have driven past the large wind farm just south of cheyenne, WY and its quite 
a sight!


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

Don't want to rain on your parade, but, perpetual motion machines don't
exist.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Party of Citizens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 13:32
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
> tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
> which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
> turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
> follow its change in course as well.
>
> POC
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

Feed lots have a lot of manure to, but, no grass.

So like feedlots, politicians must be fed, good feed, only to turn it into
manure.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 14:24
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> > NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.
>
> Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be a
> lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there.
>
> But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found.
>
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[btmd]

>> NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.
>
> Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be a
> lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there.
>
> But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found.

Actually, there are a lot of anaerobic digesters walking around DC. 
Unfortunately, they are not being used for what they are best at. 
Instead, they are running the country.  At least that's what they call it.

Brian
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Appal Energy]

Well, the same can be said of Washington D.C.. Or at least there must be a 
lot of grassland nearby to propigate the amount of manure there.


But still, no wind turbines or anaerobic digesters to be found.


- Original Message - 
From: "Greg Harbican" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.It is said that 
the
reason that it's grassland, is that the wind blows all the snow and rain 
to

Kansas.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kirk McLoren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 09:19
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines



It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient
than a personal local machine. The losses of
distribution have to be offset and the costs as well
if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind
resources and space it should be given consideration.
Kirk




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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Martin K]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kirk, in terms of capital cost per rated kilowatt of capacity, small wind
turbines in the 1-10 kilowatt range tend to be about three times as
expensive as large industrial turbines. The capital cost curve gets pretty
flat around 600 kilowatts of rated capacity. Larger turbines save
especially on labour costs or maintenance.

The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market, which
have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
small (I would say 2). Unlike the situation in say Denmark, there is no
easy way for a prospective buyer to access this kind of information
Even the best samll wind turbines need regular attention.

I would say that *for people with reliable grid access*, a small wind
turbine needs to be justified on some other grounds than current
economics. Expected electricity prices and reliability of supply in the
future (given a declining supply of fossil fuels and especially of North
American natural gas) might be one such ground, for people in rural areas
with suitable wind energy resources. Investments in conservation and
efficiency in the use of electricity will generally be more profitable
than investments in alternative supply for most people, until their
electricity use is very frugal.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


Can you justify it based on it's "coolness" factor, or the fact that it 
sits under your control, not a giant maniacal monopolistic conglomerate?


I think it would be great for every rural home to have wind power where 
possible. Even more interesting would be if rural areas could have a net 
electricity production to power village areas where wind isn't practical.


I don't know if the electrical grid could be entirely free of nuclear 
and non-renewable sources. The wind doesn't give warning when it will 
stop blowing, the sun goes down every night, and rivers slow in the summer.


Some fuel can come from agricultural sources, but I highly doubt enough 
of it could.


Conservation seems to be the 'best bet', but doesn't it stand to reason 
that this is about as hard as getting some people out of their giant 
vehicles?


Here is a good overview of energy consumed in the US from 1635 to 2000:


The charts are quite alarming, it doesn't look very sustainable at all.


--
Martin K
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Party of Citizens]

While all these serious scientists are at work, the imagineering too
tyempting to pass up. We now have a solar-powered non-piloted airplane
which can stay aloft indefinitely. Imagine aircraft like this with wind
turbines built it and rugged enough to stay aloft in the jet stream and
follow its change in course as well.

POC


> I don't want to cause an argument, but, is that a flat cost in money or
> over
> all cost ( environmental cost to produce the materials to make it, the
> economic and environmental cost to put the materials together and build
> the
> turbine ).
>
> It just seams to me that smaller turbines while in the long run may cost
> more to maintain for a given kilowatt,  might be of lower over all cost
> because they are more adaptable in materials used in building them, take
> advantage of lower winds speeds, how much they affect the environment and
> similar factors?
>
> Is it better economically to have:
>
> 1 300 kw turbine that uses 78 % of the available wind, with a 98%
> mechanical
> availability?
> 2 150 kw turbines that uses 80 % of the available winds ( because they can
> use slower winds speeds ), each with 98% mechanical availability ( if one
> is
> down for repairs then you still have 1/2 of your power generation
> potential )?
> 3 100 kw turbines that uses 82 % of available winds, again, each with 98%
> mechanical availability ( if one is down for repairs then you still have
> 2/3
> of your maximum generation potential )?
> or
> 4 75 kw turbines that uses 84% of available winds, again with a 98%
> mechanical availability ( if one is down, then you still have 3/4 of you
> maximum generation potential )?
>
> Personally, I would think that as far as cost's are concerned, it would be
> better to have 4 smaller turbines, than 1 large turbine that 2% of the
> time
> is not bringing in any revenue.Granted long term cost is going to be
> higher, but, you get that back, in reliability, and the ability to bring
> in
> revenue when the wind is blowing.
>
> Maybe I am just looking at things differently.
>
> Greg H.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:01
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
>
>
>> Kirk, in terms of capital cost per rated kilowatt of capacity, small
>> wind
>> turbines in the 1-10 kilowatt range tend to be about three times as
>> expensive as large industrial turbines. The capital cost curve gets
>> pretty
>> flat around 600 kilowatts of rated capacity. Larger turbines save
>> especially on labour costs or maintenance.
>>
>> The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market,
>> which
>> have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
>> small (I would say 2). Unlike the situation in say Denmark, there is no
>> easy way for a prospective buyer to access this kind of information
>> Even the best samll wind turbines need regular attention.
>>
>> I would say that *for people with reliable grid access*, a small wind
>> turbine needs to be justified on some other grounds than current
>> economics. Expected electricity prices and reliability of supply in the
>> future (given a declining supply of fossil fuels and especially of North
>> American natural gas) might be one such ground, for people in rural
>> areas
>> with suitable wind energy resources. Investments in conservation and
>> efficiency in the use of electricity will generally be more profitable
>> than investments in alternative supply for most people, until their
>> electricity use is very frugal.
>>
>> Doug Woodard
>> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

I don't want to cause an argument, but, is that a flat cost in money or over
all cost ( environmental cost to produce the materials to make it, the
economic and environmental cost to put the materials together and build the
turbine ).

It just seams to me that smaller turbines while in the long run may cost
more to maintain for a given kilowatt,  might be of lower over all cost
because they are more adaptable in materials used in building them, take
advantage of lower winds speeds, how much they affect the environment and
similar factors?

Is it better economically to have:

1 300 kw turbine that uses 78 % of the available wind, with a 98% mechanical
availability?
2 150 kw turbines that uses 80 % of the available winds ( because they can
use slower winds speeds ), each with 98% mechanical availability ( if one is
down for repairs then you still have 1/2 of your power generation
potential )?
3 100 kw turbines that uses 82 % of available winds, again, each with 98%
mechanical availability ( if one is down for repairs then you still have 2/3
of your maximum generation potential )?
or
4 75 kw turbines that uses 84% of available winds, again with a 98%
mechanical availability ( if one is down, then you still have 3/4 of you
maximum generation potential )?

Personally, I would think that as far as cost's are concerned, it would be
better to have 4 smaller turbines, than 1 large turbine that 2% of the time
is not bringing in any revenue.Granted long term cost is going to be
higher, but, you get that back, in reliability, and the ability to bring in
revenue when the wind is blowing.

Maybe I am just looking at things differently.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 12:01
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> Kirk, in terms of capital cost per rated kilowatt of capacity, small wind
> turbines in the 1-10 kilowatt range tend to be about three times as
> expensive as large industrial turbines. The capital cost curve gets pretty
> flat around 600 kilowatts of rated capacity. Larger turbines save
> especially on labour costs or maintenance.
>
> The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market, which
> have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
> small (I would say 2). Unlike the situation in say Denmark, there is no
> easy way for a prospective buyer to access this kind of information
> Even the best samll wind turbines need regular attention.
>
> I would say that *for people with reliable grid access*, a small wind
> turbine needs to be justified on some other grounds than current
> economics. Expected electricity prices and reliability of supply in the
> future (given a declining supply of fossil fuels and especially of North
> American natural gas) might be one such ground, for people in rural areas
> with suitable wind energy resources. Investments in conservation and
> efficiency in the use of electricity will generally be more profitable
> than investments in alternative supply for most people, until their
> electricity use is very frugal.
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[dwoodard]

Kirk, in terms of capital cost per rated kilowatt of capacity, small wind
turbines in the 1-10 kilowatt range tend to be about three times as
expensive as large industrial turbines. The capital cost curve gets pretty
flat around 600 kilowatts of rated capacity. Larger turbines save
especially on labour costs or maintenance.

The number of makes of small turbines selling into the U.S. market, which
have a good track record for reliability and low maintenance costs, is
small (I would say 2). Unlike the situation in say Denmark, there is no
easy way for a prospective buyer to access this kind of information
Even the best samll wind turbines need regular attention.

I would say that *for people with reliable grid access*, a small wind
turbine needs to be justified on some other grounds than current
economics. Expected electricity prices and reliability of supply in the
future (given a declining supply of fossil fuels and especially of North
American natural gas) might be one such ground, for people in rural areas
with suitable wind energy resources. Investments in conservation and
efficiency in the use of electricity will generally be more profitable
than investments in alternative supply for most people, until their
electricity use is very frugal.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada



On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Kirk McLoren wrote:

> It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient
> than a personal local machine. The losses of
> distribution have to be offset and the costs as well
> if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind
> resources and space it should be given consideration.
> Kirk

[snip]
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

I have no idea.

My personal opinion?I think that trying to tap the jet stream is not
feasible, due to the fact that the jet stream is to un-predictable.The
cost of building any one device, able to tap 300+ mph winds, are going to be
astronomical, and since the jet stream moves about ( even on a daily
basis ) - higher or lower altitude, direction, or even split up into a
couple of smaller streams - there is no guarantee, that any device, that is
stationary, will be able recover power, for any number of days out of the
year.

Build cost recovery time could range from 15 to 300 years depending on how
picky the jet stream is, and you have to ask yourself,  " How long will the
device last, in winds of 300+ mph ".

Yes, allot of energy is available to be recovered, but, to recover it in a
consistent way, remains elusive.

You also have to ask your self, " What will happen if we mess with one of
the biggest weather makers in the world? ".Tapping local winds is one
thing - it subtly changes local weather, tapping a global wind in another.

Again that is just my personal opinion.

Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: "Party of Citizens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:14
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> What are the future prospects for tapping the jet stream winds and using
> them as a source of power?
>
> POC
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Party of Citizens]

What are the future prospects for tapping the jet stream winds and using
them as a source of power?

POC

> NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.It is said that
> the
> reason that it's grassland, is that the wind blows all the snow and rain
> to
> Kansas.
>
> Greg H.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Kirk McLoren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 09:19
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines
>
>
>> It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient
>> than a personal local machine. The losses of
>> distribution have to be offset and the costs as well
>> if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind
>> resources and space it should be given consideration.
>> Kirk
>>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Greg Harbican]

NE Colorado has a lot of wind and allot of grassland.It is said that the
reason that it's grassland, is that the wind blows all the snow and rain to
Kansas.

Greg H.

- Original Message - 
From: "Kirk McLoren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 09:19
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines


> It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient
> than a personal local machine. The losses of
> distribution have to be offset and the costs as well
> if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind
> resources and space it should be given consideration.
> Kirk
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Wind Turbines

[Kirk McLoren]

It takes a very efficient machine to be more efficient
than a personal local machine. The losses of
distribution have to be offset and the costs as well
if one is to be fair. If one has reasonable wind
resources and space it should be given consideration.
Kirk



--- Greg  Harbican <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wind Turbines 
> AP
> 
> Colorado is one of two states in the running for a
> plant that would build the nation's largest wind
> turbines.
> 
> Clipper Windpower of California is expected to
> decide by the end of the month whether to build the
> turbines in Colorado or Nevada. The manufacturing
> plant would initially employ 75 people. The
> workforce could grow to as many as 550 employees.
> 
> Clipper plans to unveil its new turbine during the
> American Wind Energy Association's annual conference
> in May in Denver. The turbine would measure 435 feet
> -- more than a hundred feet taller than the Daniels
> and Fisher tower on downtown Denver's 16th Street
> mall.
> 
> The new turbine will generate about two-thirds more
> power than existing ones. Industry analysts say that
> could improve the economics of wind power when
> compared to natural gas and coal.
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