subject:"Re\: \[Biofuel\] testimonials as proof"

every thing was hunky dory until you tried to align me with Bush- them's 
fighten' words ;-)


the obvious difference between me an a number of others on this list is 
simply what we are willing to accept as credible evidence.  Generally, I 
look for studies, published in peer reviewed journals of double blind 
placebo controlled experiments and/or well controlled prospective 
epidemiological studies.

   That is a very high standard to meet, but if met I can be relatively 
sure that I am not fooling myself (see the tag line below)


Joe Street wrote:
 Hi Bob;
 
 Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured 
 humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I 
 thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation stuff 
 goes on.  I know this because my daughter has partial seizures in that 
 very area and she experiences pain every time she has a seizure. If 
 accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie deactivation) 
 in that area does that not mean effectively - anaesthesia? That was how 
 I understood the paper but perhaps I have it all wrong. Anyways I felt 
 it WAS the serious support for my argument that you asked for. The other 
 comment re the herb cure was just added as an offhand remark, again with 
 humour, not intended to change the subject or run from anything, as I 
 said I felt I had a strong reference as it was.
 
 Cheers
 Joe
 
 bob allen wrote:
 Joe Street wrote:
   
 Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob!  I like the way you 
 cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected 
 the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the 
 sham group .here

 However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA 
 over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and 
 deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex.
 

 I edited at this point as the following does not describe the 
 aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites.

Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, 
 but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that 
 acupuncture works as an anesthetic.



   
 BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make 
 more money writing historical fiction for bushco
 

 please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary

No I haven't had
   
 surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic.  But I do have a testimonial about 
 how a chinese herbalist
 


 You're changing the subject Joe.  I have yet to see you respond to my 
 calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for 
 anesthesia in major surgery.  Come on, where the support for your claim.



 cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6
   
 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective.  But I know 
 you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better 
 on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that 
 time. LMAO. OK OK.  lets just drop the subject I guess.  We each have 
 our own viewpoints and leave it at that.
 

 we already quite herbs but now you bring them back.  The subject is 
 proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery.  A pretty simple premise

   
 Joe

 bob allen wrote:
 
 Joe Street wrote:
   
   
 Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
 
 
 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
 is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
 method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
 with needles.

 Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
 have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
 findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
 pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

 Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
 Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
 minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
 analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
 distributed pain neuromatrix...


 what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
 treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



 You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
 you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
 know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
 have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
 trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
 consistent with the scientific method.




   
   
 I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
 point was that if surgery

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

so Kirk if this is evidence of efficacy, (reality) is mine also?

  http://grouper.com/video/MediaDetails.aspx?id=422258


If my video is not reality, but yours is, what criteria do you use to 
separate the two




Kirk McLoren wrote:
 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366q=acupuncture 
 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-799443241400641366q=acupuncture
  
 Open heart surgery with only acupuncture as anesthetic.
  
 Kirk
 
 */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
 Joe Street wrote:
   Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
  
  
 
 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
 
 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major
 surgery
 is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract
 describes a
 method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
 with needles.
 
 Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human
 brain
 have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
 findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
 pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...
 
 Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
 Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
 minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
 analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
 distributed pain neuromatrix...
 
 
 what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
 treatment. This is a far cry from your claim.
 
 
 
 You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have
 you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you
 know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far
 have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not
 trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
 consistent with the scientific method.
 
 
 
 
  
   I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue,
 but my
   point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic
 it's got
   to be better.
   I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a
 lotnone of
   them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
   procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
  
   Joe
  
   bob allen wrote:
   Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?
 sure
   there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but
 that is
   not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are
   done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally
 doubt it
   but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just
 because you
   or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found,
  
   http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34
  
   you show me what you have.
  
  
   Joe Street wrote:
  
   Hey Bob;
  
   Ever been under general anaesthesia?
  
  
   yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb
  
  
   Remember how you felt when you
  
   came around?
  
  
   groggy
  
  
   Did you puke?
   no
  
   Like the worst hangover you ever had?
  
   not at all
   Now
  
   you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't
 gonna be
   easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink
 of death
   for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I
 really have
   to go get references for this?
  
  
   you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little
 scientific
   evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation
 of how
   it works.
  
  
   It's a waste of time for something so
  
   obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the
 recovery room
   last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL
  
  
   this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of
 acupuncture as
   a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference
 or two
   to support your claim?
  
  
  
   Joe
  
   bob allen wrote:
  
   Joe Street wrote:
  
  
   Hi Bob;
  
   snip
  
   explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without
   anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the
 body with
   anaesthetic.
  
  
   ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim
 non-testimonial
   please.

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the 
placebo effect?

D. Mindock wrote:
 I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back 
 in the OR
 with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as 
 they worked
 on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One 
 was where
 I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while 
 doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
 with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. 
 The doc gave me pain
 pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. 
 After a couple
 days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I 
 saw the size
 of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first 
 needle in the knee
 I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. 
 He stuck some
 more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles 
 out. I walked out
 of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain 
 came back, as he said
 it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches 
 and pain pills
 which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did 
 give
 permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends 
 on the skill of the
 practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely 
 placed on meridians
 and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending 
 on the problem.
 These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized 
 electronic equipment. They really exist.
 How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned 
 perceptual powers.
 Peace, D. Mindock
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 
 
 Joe Street wrote:
 Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
 
 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
 is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
 method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
 with needles.
 
 Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
 have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
 findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
 pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...
 
 Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
 Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
 minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
 analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
 distributed pain neuromatrix...
 
 
 what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
 treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.
 
 
 
 You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
 you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
 know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
 have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
 trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
 consistent with the scientific method.
 
 
 
 
 I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
 point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
 to be better.
 I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
 them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
 procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

 Joe

 bob allen wrote:
 Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure
 there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is
 not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are
 done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it
 but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you
 or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

 http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

 you show me what you have.


 Joe Street wrote:

 Hey Bob;

 Ever been under general anaesthesia?

 yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


   Remember how you felt when you

 came around?

 groggy


   Did you puke?
 no

 Like the worst hangover you ever had?

 not at all
Now

 you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be
 easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death
 for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have
 to go get references for this?

 you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Keith Addison

could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the
placebo effect?

No, speaking from quite extensive experience of it in East Asia. But 
then I suppose that's just a testimonial eh? Actually my experience 
of it was two-sided, both personal and investigating and writing 
about it. It's not just mumbo-jumbo, it has a sound scientific basis 
even though Western (ie allopathic) medicine doesn't see it that way. 
Acupuncture was previously a part of Western medicine, it was used 
quite extensively in both Holland and Italy and probably elsewhere in 
Europe, until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable 
side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't just 
happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect 
either, would they now.

Best

Keith


D. Mindock wrote:
  I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back
  in the OR
  with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as
  they worked
  on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different 
problems. One
  was where
  I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while
  doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
  with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only 
hobble around.
  The doc gave me pain
  pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits.
  After a couple
  days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I
  saw the size
  of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in 
that first
  needle in the knee
  I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee.
  He stuck some
  more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles
  out. I walked out
  of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain
  came back, as he said
  it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches
  and pain pills
  which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did
  give
  permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that 
success depends
  on the skill of the
  practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely
  placed on meridians
  and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are 
targeted depending
  on the problem.
  These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized
  electronic equipment. They really exist.
  How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned
  perceptual powers.
  Peace, D. Mindock
 
  - Original Message -
  From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 
 
  Joe Street wrote:
  Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
 
  
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art 
01145
 
  much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
  is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
  method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
  with needles.
 
  Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
  have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
  findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
  pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain correlation...
 
  Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
  Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
  minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
  analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
  distributed pain neuromatrix...
 
 
  what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
  treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.
 
 
 
  You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
  you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
  know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
  have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
  trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
  consistent with the scientific method.
 
 
 
 
  I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
  point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
  to be better.
  I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
  them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
  procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
 
  Joe
 
  bob allen wrote:
  Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure
  there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is
  not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are
  done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

 have had acupuncture for a several different 
 problems. One
 was where
 I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while
 doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
 with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only 
 hobble around.
 The doc gave me pain
 pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits.
 After a couple
 days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I
 saw the size
 of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in 
 that first
 needle in the knee
 I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee.
 He stuck some
 more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles
 out. I walked out
 of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain
 came back, as he said
 it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches
 and pain pills
 which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did
 give
 permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that 
 success depends
 on the skill of the
 practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely
 placed on meridians
 and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are 
 targeted depending
 on the problem.
 These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized
 electronic equipment. They really exist.
 How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned
 perceptual powers.
 Peace, D. Mindock

 - Original Message -
 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof


 Joe Street wrote:
 Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:


 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art 
 01145
 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
 is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
 method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
 with needles.

 Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
 have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
 findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
 pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain correlation...

 Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
 Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
 minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
 analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
 distributed pain neuromatrix...


 what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
 treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



 You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
 you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
 know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
 have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
 trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
 consistent with the scientific method.




 I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
 point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
 to be better.
 I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
 them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
 procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

 Joe

 bob allen wrote:
 Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure
 there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is
 not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are
 done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it
 but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you
 or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

 http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

 you show me what you have.


 Joe Street wrote:

 Hey Bob;

 Ever been under general anaesthesia?

 yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


   Remember how you felt when you

 came around?

 groggy


   Did you puke?
 no

 Like the worst hangover you ever had?

 not at all
Now

 you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be
 easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death
 for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have
 to go get references for this?

 you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific
 evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how
 it works.


 It's a waste of time for something so

 obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room
 last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL

 this has nothing to do with the claim

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Mike Weaver

No.  It works.

Captain Porcupine

bob allen wrote:

could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful application of the 
placebo effect?

D. Mindock wrote:
  

I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back 
in the OR
with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as 
they worked
on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One 
was where
I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while 
doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. 
The doc gave me pain
pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. 
After a couple
days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I 
saw the size
of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first 
needle in the knee
I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. 
He stuck some
more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles 
out. I walked out
of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain 
came back, as he said
it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches 
and pain pills
which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did 
give
permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends 
on the skill of the
practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely 
placed on meridians
and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending 
on the problem.
These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized 
electronic equipment. They really exist.
How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned 
perceptual powers.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message - 
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof


Joe Street wrote:


Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
  

much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
with needles.

Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
distributed pain neuromatrix...


what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the
treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have
you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you
know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far
have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not
trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence,
consistent with the scientific method.






I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
to be better.
I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

Joe

bob allen wrote:
  

Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure
there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is
not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are
done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it
but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you
or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

you show me what you have.


Joe Street wrote:



Hey Bob;

Ever been under general anaesthesia?

  

yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


  Remember how you felt when you



came around?

  

groggy


  Did you puke?
no

Like the worst hangover you ever had?

not at all
   Now



you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be
easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death
for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have
to go get references for this?

  

you made

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Kirk McLoren

Hospital, found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of possible harmful side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of treatment (Barsky et al. 2002).Since patients' beliefs and fears may be generated by just about anything they
come in contact with, it may well be that many things that are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the color of the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they use to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a patient in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the patient and have profound effects for good or for ill on their Best Keith D. Mindock wrote: I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat on his back in the OR with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as they worked on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different problems. One was where I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees
while doing deep knee bends (don't try this) with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only hobble around. The doc gave me pain pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits. After a couple days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I saw the size of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in that first needle in the knee I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the other knee. He stuck some more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled the needles out. I walked out of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain came back, as he said it might and
so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches and pain pills which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did give permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that success depends on the skill of the practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but are precisely placed on meridians and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are targeted depending on the problem. These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized electronic equipment. They really exist. How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through highly tuned perceptual powers. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message -
From: "bob allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof Joe Street wrote: Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art 01145 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked with needles. "Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary findings suggest that
acupuncture at analgesic points involves the pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain correlation... Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported distributed pain neuromatrix... what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you know anybody personally that has? You made a
specific claim and so far have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, consistent with the scientific method. I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got to be better. I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. Joe bob allen wrote: Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?
sure there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 you show me what you have. Joe Street wrote: Hey Bob; Ever been und

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Mike Weaver

 reveal.]
 * C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may
 actually get sick and die because of their belief (Hex Death: Voodoo
 Magic or Persuasion? Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992):
 244-47).
 * In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that
 researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly
 half
 of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen
 developing
 full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they
 believed
 to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In
 actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized
 saltwater solution.*

 Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston's Brigham and Women's
 Hospital,
 found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient
 expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of possible harmful
 side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of
 treatment (Barsky et al. 2002).

 Since patients' beliefs and fears may be generated by just about
 anything they come in contact with, it may well be that many
 things that
 are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the
 color of
 the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they
 use
 to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a
 patient
 in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the
 patient
 and have profound effects for good or for ill on their


 
  Best
 
  Keith
 
 
  D. Mindock wrote:
  I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat
 on his back
  in the OR
  with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the
 surgical team as
  they worked
  on him. I myself have had acupuncture for a several different
  problems. One
  was where
  I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my
 knees while
  doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
  with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only
  hobble around.
  The doc gave me pain
  pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing
 my armpits.
  After a couple
  days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested
 acupuncture. When I
  saw the size
  of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in
  that first
  needle in the knee
  I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with
 the other knee.
  He stuck some
  more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled
 the needles
  out. I walked out
  of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days
 later the pain
  came back, as he said
  it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better
 than crutches
  and pain pills
  which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain.
 Acupuncture did
  give
  permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that
  success depends
  on the skill of the
  practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but
 are precisely
  placed on meridians
  and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are
  targeted depending
  on the problem.
  These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized
  electronic equipment. They really exist.
  How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through
 highly tuned
  perceptual powers.
  Peace, D. Mindock
 
  - Original Message -
  From: bob allen
  To:
  Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 
 
  Joe Street wrote:
  Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
 
 
 
 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art

  01145
  much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that
 major surgery
  is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract
 describes a
  method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to
 being poked
  with needles.
 
  Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in
 human brain
  have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
  findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
  pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointñbrain
 correlation...
 
  Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
  Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock
 EA or
  minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders.
 Multisubject
  analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the
 reported
  distributed pain neuromatrix...
 
 
  what this says to me is that the placebo

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Andres Secco

Think is because acupuncture does not mean business for doctors and for 
pharma companies.
Is too easy and extremely cheap and amazingly effective.

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

For the same reason your insurance will pay for 300,000.00 heart
transplant but won't pay for 100.00 course on
how to change your life so you won't need the transplant.

I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in
place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly
in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? Kirk McLoren wrote:

 Freud was a principal player in denigrating hypnosis. Freuds teacher,
 Charcot, was a brilliant hypnotist.
 So follow the money. Who profited by removing hypnosis from
 psychiatry? Actually from all medicine.
 Who is the pharma money? What else do they own/control.
 Who profits from mandatory innoculation of newborns when it is
 recognized FACT that newborns cannot form an immune response and rely
 on mothers antibodies. Who pushed for formula babies - and now we see
 mothers milk is best, 10 IQ points etc as a minimum advantage.
 Same folks Bob. Dont place your faith in the manipulations of thieves
 and liars. Their track record is unchanged in generations. And there
 is plain stupidity too. Look at the crap Lister took because the med
 schools taught otherwise.
 I liked the quoteHalf of what we teach is wrong -we just dont know
 which half.
 Superior modalities go begging all the time. Thats why you have to
 direct your own health care.
 Kirk

 */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:

 I am still left with a concern: if acupuncture really can be used in
 place of anesthesia, why isn't its use more widespread, particularly
 in western, or at least (US)for profit medicine? As far as I am
 aware,
 malpractice insurance is the highest for anesthesiologists, for the
 reasons mention here before- sedating a person is a risky
 business. If
 you could achieve the same sedation without drugs and therefore side
 effects, the practice of medicine should be much cheaper, right?
 which
 means more profit right? Why don't we hear of more anesthesiologists
 using this technique? Or how about dentists. A little girl died in
 Chicago, due to negligence I presume, during a dental procedure
 conducted under anesthetic. Ever heard of a root canal done with
 acupuncture alone? Just curious

 Keith Addison wrote:
  could it be that acupuncture is just a very powerful
 application of the
  placebo effect?

  No, speaking from quite extensive experience of it in East Asia.
 But
  then I suppose that's just a testimonial eh? Actually my experience
  of it was two-sided, both personal and investigating and writing
  about it. It's not just mumbo-jumbo, it has a sound scientific
 basis
  even though Western (ie allopathic) medicine doesn't see it that
 way.
  Acupuncture was previously a part of Western medicine, it was used
  quite extensively in both Holland and Italy and probably
 elsewhere in
  Europe, until the onset of Big Pharma (plus unforeseeable
  side-effects). Uh, all those unforeseeable side-effects wouldn't
 just
  happen to be a very powerful application of the placebo effect
  either, would they now.

 actually some may be. The nocebo effect is well known.

 http://skepdic.com/nocebo.html

 * More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches
 when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through
 their
 heads could produce a headache.
 * Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their
 sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about
 past
 experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause
 itchy
 rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having
 severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers
 brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys
 they
 were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with
 chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree.
 Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the
 poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy,
 itchy
 rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual
 poison did
 not react. (Gardiner Morse, The nocebo effect, Hippocrates,
 November
 1999, Hippocrates.com)
 * In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone
 to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women
 with
 similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. Nocebos
 Contribute to a Host

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-04 Thread Keith Addison

)
 * In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone
to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women with
similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. Nocebos
Contribute to a Host of Ills. Journal of the American Medical
Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might argue that
the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk factors
may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies
better than the objective tests could reveal.]
 * C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may
actually get sick and die because of their belief (Hex Death: Voodoo
Magic or Persuasion? Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): 244-47).
 * In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that
researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half
of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing
full-blown attacks. They were ìtreatedî with a substance they believed
to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In
actuality, both the ìirritantî and the ìmedicineî were a nebulized
saltwater solution.*

Arthur Barsky, a psychiatrist at Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital,
found in a recent review of the nocebo literature that patient
expectation of adverse effects of treatment or of  possible harmful
side-effects of a drug, played a significant role in the outcome of
treatment (Barsky et al. 2002).

Since patients' beliefs and fears may be generated by just about
anything they come in contact with, it may well be that many things that
are unattended to by many if not most physicians, such as the color of
the pills they give, the type of uniform they wear, the words they use
to give the patient information, the kind of room they place a patient
in for recovery, etc., may be imbued with rich meaning for the patient
and have profound effects for good or for ill on their


 
  Best
 
  Keith
 
 
  D. Mindock wrote:
  I saw a documentary last year on acupuncture. I saw a guy flat 
on his back
  in the OR
  with his lower abdomen wide open. He was talking to the surgical team as
  they worked
  on him.  I myself have had acupuncture for a several different
  problems. One
  was where
  I burst the bursar sacs (I heard the suckers pop) behinds my knees while
  doing deep knee bends (don't try this)
  with 100 lb barbell on my shoulders. After that, I could only
  hobble around.
  The doc gave me pain
  pills and crutches. Crutches are no picnic. They were killing my armpits.
  After a couple
  days of painful knees and armpits, a friend suggested acupuncture. When I
  saw the size
  of the needles I felt queasy. But when the acupuncturist stick in
  that first
  needle in the knee
  I saw white light and then all the pain was gone. Same with the 
other knee.
  He stuck some
  more needles into the shins. After 15 minutes or so, he pulled 
the needles
  out. I walked out
  of the office pain-free, carrying my crutches. A few days later the pain
  came back, as he said
  it might and so I had two followups. Acupuncture was better than crutches
  and pain pills
  which only made me groggy and did nothing much for pain. Acupuncture did
  give
  permanent relief. I believe in acupuncture but I'm sure that
  success depends
  on the skill of the
  practioner. The needles are not stuck in random locations but 
are precisely
  placed on meridians
  and I think that there are spots on the meridian that are
  targeted depending
  on the problem.
  These meridians of energy flow have been verified with specialized
  electronic equipment. They really exist.
  How did the ancient practioners know of this? I think through 
highly tuned
  perceptual powers.
  Peace, D. Mindock
 
  - Original Message -
  From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 
 
  Joe Street wrote:
  Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
 
 
  http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art
  01145
  much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery
  is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a
  method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked
  with needles.
 
  Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain
  have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary
  findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the
  pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupointÒbrain correlation...
 
  Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point
  Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or
  minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject
  analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported
  distributed pain neuromatrix...
 
 
  what this says to me

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

2006-10-03 Thread Kirk McLoren

The scary warning I am hearing is aspirin weakens blood vessels in the eye rendering you possibly blind if you fall or otherwise subject the eye to trauma.  I am told Ginko does not do that and offers all the blood thinning of aspirin for those taking aspirin for cardio benefit.KirkTerry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi Bob,Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by Northern American Natives for thousands of years. Ayurvedic doctors of India have studied herbs for centuries and so have Chinese herbal practicianers. Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining. It can also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time. I have never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow
 Bark.Terry DyckFrom: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proofDate: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand yearsof testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugshave been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. Youcan get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.http://www.phcog.org/Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the americanindians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive tothe lining of the stomach.Other herbs, which have a
 long history of traditional use, haven'tsurvived scientific scrutiny. glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wortare three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, orconflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured viaplacebo controlled studies.of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonialevidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang(ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits. you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have theinformation.Terry Dyck wrote:  Hi Bob,   Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between a short  term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of  testimonies?
   Terry DyckFrom: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof  Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:"NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover investigation  in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for  an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the producer  was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked,  he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and  testimonials from allegedly satisfied
 users. After the infomercial was  completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom  (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven  "satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen,  M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for  her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a  fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink  mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web  site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard  would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your product  to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006]  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ "
--  Bob Allen   ___  Biofuel mailing list  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel at Journey to Forever:  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000  messages):  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  ___  Biofuel mailing list  Biofuel@sustainablelists.org  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org   Biofuel
 at Journey to Forever:  http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html   Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

D. Mindock wrote:
Bob,
How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins)
killed vs Prescrip drugs?

I don't have any data, do you. In my personal experience 0 for 0. But in
reality that is an unfair question. The fair question would be what is
the therapeutic ratio of any particular agent, be it an herb or a
pharmaceutical.

How many
people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs?

in my personal experience many, and there is overwhelming proof of
efficacy of many, many drugs.

which only take
care of symptoms

I hear this a lot, it is a standard line among certain groups, but
essentially meaningless.

at best and cause
many side-effects, all nasty.

um, you just said yourself that herbs have side effects, remember. so
what is the point

quoteGimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely.
Everything has a risk/benefit ratio.

The so-called science that validates these
drugs is shameful.

again you are confusing fraud with science.

The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been
around a long time. If they weren't
effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long
time ago?

no, the placebo effect is powerful

If they were not effective
do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for herbs used
by indigenous people for
quite a long time?

crimey, D. we have been through this before. I said it my self.

testimonial is unreliable data. period

Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it where it
points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition?

intuition is great for formulating a hypothesis. it sucks as evidence

For science?
Science will never show us the ultimate truth.

your changing the subject here D. I never said anything about nirvana

Any thinking scientist should
use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us

I and I dare say the majority of my colleagues do to. I am not however
gullible.

and be in awe of
Nature.

I enjoy nature, I want to preserve our environment, but to be full of
awe- well that is getting a little religious.

- Original Message -
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

D. Mindock wrote:
Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely. Everything has
a risk/benefit ratio.
I agree, that is what I have been saying all along. The dose makes the
poison... paracelsus

Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but
possible.
actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as schizophrenia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract

But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially
when studies are compromised to give the desired result.
and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be
affected by the income sales? you have to be kidding.

That is not
science.
Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many
times.
bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster
say?

if there is money to be made whether in what you call big pharma or
little herb dealers, caveat emptor. Me, I will avoid testimonials as
evidence of efficacy. Everybody keeps telling me follow the money, fair
enough, but I say to - show me the data

Spikenard comes to mind.
Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E
study that said vit E does
not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still it did
provide a weak protective
effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria.
If they had used d-alpha
type the results would have been better.

show me the data

But no, they used the synthetic
form instead. And if they
had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed.

show me the data
Anyway, we're being softened
to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big Pharma
wants no competition
nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma
behind a number of supplements. They are not dumb, they like everybody
else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements
you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony.

and
will use money and junk science to get rid of it. And disinfo.
We the People (the workers) are getting the royal shaft in health,
finances, and freedom. We used to pursue
these things but now our government's policies is making them
nonavailable.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message -

*From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org
mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Saturday, September 30, 2006 10:32 PM
*Subject:* Re

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

MK DuPree wrote:
Hang in there D. Not sure Bob can ever wrap his microscope

sorry, I don't use them

around what
you're saying, but maybe one day, when he takes one Big Pharma too many
and a side effect becomes a major effect that makes him wonder why
that isolated molecule combined with all those other isolated molecules
somehow could not perform the same synergistic effects as the originals
that evolved through millions of years of Mother Nature's
formulations. Mike DuPree

ah yes the vitalist theory of chemistry- nature is good, synthesis is
bad. nonsense, this is an absolutist position with no meaning. drugs
are good and bad and herbs are good and bad. All I want is proof, hold
the testimonial. and that is all you guys give me.

- Original Message -
From: D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Bob,
How many people have herbs (or supplements, essential oils, vitamins)
killed vs Prescrip drugs? How many
people have had their disease helped with prescrip drugs? which only
take
care of symptoms at best and cause
many side-effects, all nasty. The so-called science that validates these
drugs is shameful.
The reference to the bible was only to indicate that herbs have been
around a long time. If they weren't
effective or helpful, don't you think they would have disappeared a long
time ago? If they were not effective
do you think Big Pharma would be combing the jungles looking for
herbs used
by indigenous people for
quite a long time?
Data is everywhere. We live immersed in data. Some can see it
where it
points and others can't. Why should we abandon our intuition? For
science?
Science will never show us the ultimate truth. Any thinking scientist
should
use all the clues (mysteries) that are around us and in us and be in
awe of
Nature.
Peace, D. Mindock

- Original Message -
From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

D. Mindock wrote:
Gimme herbs anytime. Even ephedra is safe if used wisely.
Everything has
a risk/benefit ratio.

I agree, that is what I have been saying all along. The dose makes the
poison... paracelsus

Even water can be dangerous if you drink too much. Hard to do this but
possible.

actually this is a serious issue in certain diseases such as
schizophrenia

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=PubMedlist_uids=1587518dopt=Abstract

But precrip drugs have a very poor safety record, especially
when studies are compromised to give the desired result.

and you don't think that the promotion of herbs and supplements might be
affected by the income sales? you have to be kidding.

That is not
science.
Essential oils, derived from herbs, are mentioned in the Bible many
times.

bible smible, what does the one true god, the flying spaghetti monster
say?

Spikenard comes to mind.
Some studies are designed to fail from the beginning. E.g., the vit E
study that said vit E does
not protect the heart. They intentionally used the dl type. Still
it did
provide a weak protective
effect if one actually read the results and ignored the media hysteria.
If they had used d-alpha
type the results would have been better.

show me the data

But no, they used the synthetic
form instead. And if they
had used gamma tocopherol the results would have been good indeed.

show me the data
Anyway, we're being softened
to give up our supplements or have them drastically weakened. Big
Pharma
wants no competition

nobody does, and if you look closely you will probably find big pharma
behind a number of supplements. They are not dumb, they like everybody
else is in it, to some degree for the money. With herbs and supplements
you don't need proof, just pay someone to give testimony.

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence?

Terry Dyck wrote:
 Hi Bob,
 
 Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by 
 Northern American Natives for  thousands of years.

so?

   Ayurvedic doctors of
 India have studied herbs for centuries 


and they drink their urine, so what?

and so have Chinese herbal
 practicianers. 


they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what?

  Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.

but not as bad a willow bark salicin
  It can
 also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.  I have 
 never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.

uh, testimonial again.  sorry




 
 Terry Dyck
 
 
 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500

 Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
 of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
 This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs
 have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You
 can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.

 http://www.phcog.org/

 Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,
 obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
 indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
 the lining of the stomach.

 Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
 survived scientific scrutiny.

glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
 are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or
 conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via
 placebo controlled studies.

 of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
 evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang
 (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.

   you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
 information.



 Terry Dyck wrote:
 Hi Bob,

 Good point.  On the other hand is there not a difference between a short
 term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
 testimonies?

 Terry Dyck


 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500


 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:


 NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover 
 investigation
 in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for
 an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the 
 producer
 was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked,
 he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and
 testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was
 completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom
 (including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven
 satisfied customers were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen,
 M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received $5,000 for
 her endorsement. The participants did not know that the product was a
 fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered chocolate drink
 mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on NBC's Web
 site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product, how hard
 would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your 
 product
 to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15, 2006]
 http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/


 --
 Bob Allen

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 messages):
 http

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Kirk McLoren wrote:
 The scary warning I am hearing is aspirin weakens blood vessels in the 
 eye rendering you possibly blind if you fall or otherwise subject the 
 eye to trauma.
 I am told Ginko does not do that

teswtimonial

  and offers all the blood thinning of
 aspirin for those taking aspirin for cardio benefit.
  
 Kirk
 
 */Terry Dyck [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:
 
 Hi Bob,
 
 Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America
 and by
 Northern American Natives for thousands of years. Ayurvedic doctors of
 India have studied herbs for centuries and so have Chinese herbal
 practicianers. Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.
 It can
 also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.
 I have
 never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.
 
 Terry Dyck
 
 
  From: bob allen
  Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
  Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500
  
  Howdy Terry. First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
  of testimonies? because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
  This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most
 drugs
  have been discovered from an examination of traditional
 medicine. You
  can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.
  
  http://www.phcog.org/
  
  Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic
 acid,
  obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
  indians. Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
  the lining of the stomach.
  
  Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
  survived scientific scrutiny.
  
   glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
  are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is
 no, or
  conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when
 measured via
  placebo controlled studies.
  
  of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
  evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma
 huang
  (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.
  
   you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
  information.
  
  
  
  Terry Dyck wrote:
Hi Bob,
   
Good point. On the other hand is there not a difference between
 a short
term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
testimonies?
   
Terry Dyck
   
   
From: bob allen
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500
   
   
you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:
   
   
NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover
  investigation
in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an
 infomercial for
an alleged skin moisturizer called Moisturol. Even though the
  producer
was told that there was no scientific evidence that the
 product worked,
he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical
 endorser and
testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the
 infomercial was
completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most
 of whom
(including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of
 the seven
satisfied customers were actresses who received $50.
 Margaret Olsen,
M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles, received
 $5,000 for
her endorsement. The participants did not know that the
 product was a
fake that had been made from Nestle's Quick (a powdered
 chocolate drink
mix). The text and video of the investigation are posted on
 NBC's Web
site. [From the inside out: If you had a questionable product,
 how hard
would it be to find someone to make an infomercial and sell your
  product
to millions? Dateline decided to find out. Dateline, Sept 15,
 2006]
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14856571/ 
   
   
--
Bob Allen
   
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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof





Hi Bob;

I said it before and I'll say it again. Who's gonna spend the money to
scientifically prove something they cannot control, works? Just for
this reason there isn't much to go on but testimony. However the
corollary, someone with a lot of money, and who stands to lose a lot
would see it as a good investment to publish information which makes
herbs look bad, now that is a good possibility, vis big oil's spending
on anti-global warming research and disinformation campaign. However
much you may be able to shoot me down on this, I'll go ahead and say
it; there is something sorta scientific we can say in this case. We
rely on statistical information so heavily, sure a handful of bought
testimonials are worthless but what about generations worth? What about
a thousand years worth? It's not a double blind study but obviously
something is up and people are on to it. If something is crap and is
hyped up with bought and paid for testimonials, it's not gonna stand
the test of time is it? Another example? Nobody has a scientific
explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without
anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with
anaesthetic. It's been known to work for a long time but nobody can
explain it. Perhaps our science isn't good enough yet. Should we
abandon accupuncture on this principle then? 

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence?

Terry Dyck wrote:
  
  
Hi Bob,

Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by 
Northern American Natives for  thousands of years.

  
  
so?

   Ayurvedic doctors of
  
  
India have studied herbs for centuries 

  
  

and they drink their urine, so what?

and so have Chinese herbal
  
  
practicianers. 

  
  

they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what?

  Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.

but not as bad a willow bark salicin
  It can
  
  
also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.  I have 
never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.

  
  
uh, testimonial again.  sorry




  
  
Terry Dyck




  From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500

Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs
have been "discovered" from an examination of traditional medicine. You
can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.

http://www.phcog.org/

Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,
obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
the lining of the stomach.

Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
survived scientific scrutiny.

   glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or
conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via
placebo controlled studies.

of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang
(ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.

  you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
information.



Terry Dyck wrote:
  
  
Hi Bob,

Good point.  On the other hand is there not a difference between a short
term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
testimonies?

Terry Dyck




  From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500


you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:


"NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover 
  

  
  investigation
  
  

  in which an infomercial producer was asked to create an infomercial for
an alleged skin moisturizer called "Moisturol." Even though the 
  

  
  producer
  
  

  was told that there was no scientific evidence that the product worked,
he agreed to create an infomercial complete with a medical endorser and
testimonials from allegedly satisfied users. After the infomercial was
completed, the investigators confronted the participants, most of whom
(including the doctor) had not even tried the product. Six of the seven
"satisfied customers" were actresses who received $50. Margaret Olsen,
M.D., a dermatologist who practices in Los Angeles,

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Joe Street wrote:
 Hi Bob;
 
 I said it before and I'll say it again. Who's gonna spend the money to 
 scientifically prove something they cannot control,

conversely, why try to provide reproducible data when testimony sells?


  works?  Just for
 this reason there isn't much to go on but testimony.  However the 
 corollary, someone with a lot of money, and who stands to lose a lot 
 would see it as a good investment to publish information which makes 
 herbs look bad, now that is a good possibility, vis big oil's spending 
 on anti-global warming research and disinformation campaign. However 
 much you may be able to shoot me down on this, I'll go ahead and say 
 it;  there is something sorta scientific we can say in this case.  We 
 rely on statistical information so heavily, sure a handful of bought 
 testimonials are worthless but what about generations worth?

and I have said it before, one testimonial is one, a hundred is a 
hundred, its still testimonial.  I do know that lots of traditional 
remedies contain efficacious agents, which have been proven.  I also 
know that some herbs which claim to work are tested, don't.

  What about
 a thousand years worth?  It's not a double blind study but obviously 
 something is up and people are on to it. If something is crap and is 
 hyped up with bought and paid for testimonials, it's not gonna stand the 
 test of time is it? 

   it depends on how gullible the buyer is, doesn't it


  Another example? Nobody has a scientific
 explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
 anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
 anaesthetic. 

ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
please.



  It's been known to work for a long time but nobody can
 explain it. 

IF IT works, I can explain it- placebo effect.


  Perhaps our science isn't good enough yet. Should we
 abandon accupuncture on this principle then?

   sticking needles a specific locations in the body to interrupt Qi, 
which has no scientific reality, is producing a placebo effect if there 
  any effect at all.



 
 Joe
 
 bob allen wrote:
 Guys, can't we get past testimonies for evidence?

 Terry Dyck wrote:
   
 Hi Bob,

 Many herbs have been used in parts of Europe, Asia, South America and by 
 Northern American Natives for  thousands of years.
 

 so?

Ayurvedic doctors of
   
 India have studied herbs for centuries 
 


 and they drink their urine, so what?

 and so have Chinese herbal
   
 practicianers. 
 


 they also use tiger penises and bears gall bladders, so what?

   Aspirin can cause problems with the stomach lining.

 but not as bad a willow bark salicin
   It can
   
 also cause problems with joints if used over a long period of time.  I have 
 never heard of anyone having side effects from taking White Willow Bark.
 

 uh, testimonial again.  sorry




   
 Terry Dyck


 
 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:56:12 -0500

 Howdy Terry.   First, how do you know that an herb has a thousand years
 of testimonies?  because someone said so. That itself is a testimonial.
 This is not to say that no herb has medicinal value- in fact most drugs
 have been discovered from an examination of traditional medicine. You
 can get a degree in Pharmacognosy for example.

 http://www.phcog.org/

 Just one example, Aspirin is a chemical modification of salicylic acid,
 obtained from willow bark and known to be efficacious by the american
 indians.  Aspirin is an improvement however, as it is less corrosive to
 the lining of the stomach.

 Other herbs, which have a long history of traditional use, haven't
 survived scientific scrutiny.

glucosamine and shark cartilage, saw palmetto, and st. john's wort
 are three that come to mind which are sold but for which there is no, or
 conflicting, or little evidence for efficacy, at least when measured via
 placebo controlled studies.

 of course there is no end of nostrums hawked everyday via testimonial
 evidence, some of which have been shown to be dangerous such as ma huang
 (ephedra) or laetrile, a cyanide containing product from apricot pits.

   you just can't make an informed decision if you don't have the
 information.



 Terry Dyck wrote:
   
 Hi Bob,

 Good point.  On the other hand is there not a difference between a short
 term study and a study done on herbs that has a thousand years of
 testimonies?

 Terry Dyck


 
 From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof
 Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:02:42 -0500


 you be the judge as to the value of testimonial evidence:


 NBC's Dateline has broadcast the results of an undercover 
   
 investigation
   
 in which an infomercial producer

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof





Hey Bob;

Ever been under general anaesthesia? Remember how you felt when you
came around? Did you puke? Like the worst hangover you ever had? Now
you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be
easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death
for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really
have to go get references for this? It's a waste of time for something
so obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery
room last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
Hi Bob;
  

snip

  
explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
anaesthetic. 

  
  
ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
please.

  
  
  



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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

you show me what you have.


Joe Street wrote:
 Hey Bob;
 
 Ever been under general anaesthesia? 

yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


  Remember how you felt when you
 came around?

groggy


  Did you puke?
no

Like the worst hangover you ever had?

not at all
   Now
 you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
 easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
 for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
 to go get references for this? 

you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
it works.


It's a waste of time for something so
 obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
 last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL

this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
to support your claim?


 
 Joe
 
 bob allen wrote:
 Joe Street wrote:
   
 Hi Bob;
 snip
 explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
 anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
 anaesthetic. 
 

 ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
 please.

   
   
 
 
 
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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof





Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145

I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my
point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got
to be better.
I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of
them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical
procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

you show me what you have.


Joe Street wrote:
  
  
Hey Bob;

Ever been under general anaesthesia? 

  
  
yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb"


  Remember how you felt when you
  
  
came around?

  
  
groggy


  Did you puke?
no

Like the worst hangover you ever had?

not at all
   Now
  
  
you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
to go get references for this? 

  
  
you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
it works.


It's a waste of time for something so
  
  
obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL

  
  
this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
to support your claim?


  
  
Joe

bob allen wrote:


  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
  
Hi Bob;

  

snip


  
explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
anaesthetic. 


  
  ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
please.

  
  
  



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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof

Joe Street wrote:
 Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:
 
 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145

much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
with needles.

Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
distributed pain neuromatrix...


what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
consistent with the scientific method.




 
 I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
 point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got 
 to be better.
 I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of 
 them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical 
 procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.
 
 Joe
 
 bob allen wrote:
 Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
 there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
 not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
 done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
 but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
 or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

 http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

 you show me what you have.


 Joe Street wrote:
   
 Hey Bob;

 Ever been under general anaesthesia? 
 

 yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


   Remember how you felt when you
   
 came around?
 

 groggy


   Did you puke?
 no

 Like the worst hangover you ever had?

 not at all
Now
   
 you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
 easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
 for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
 to go get references for this? 
 

 you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
 evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
 it works.


 It's a waste of time for something so
   
 obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
 last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL
 

 this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
 a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
 to support your claim?


   
 Joe

 bob allen wrote:
 
 Joe Street wrote:
   
   
 Hi Bob;
 
 snip
 
 explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without 
 anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with 
 anaesthetic. 
 
 
 ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial 
 please.

   
   
   
 

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 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
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 http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

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Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof





Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob!  I like the way
you cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture
affected the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE
than the sham group .here 

"However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA
over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and
deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex."

BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make
more money writing historical fiction for bushco No I haven't had
surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic.  But I do have a testimonial
about how a chinese herbalist cured me of an illness that I suffered
for 6 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective.  But I
know you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get
better on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at
that time. LMAO. OK OK.  lets just drop the subject I guess.  We each
have our own viewpoints and leave it at that.

Joe

bob allen wrote:

  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145

  
  
much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
with needles.

"Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
distributed pain neuromatrix...


what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
consistent with the scientific method.




  
  
I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got 
to be better.
I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of 
them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical 
procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

Joe

bob allen wrote:


  Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

you show me what you have.


Joe Street wrote:
  
  
  
Hey Bob;

Ever been under general anaesthesia? 


  
  yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb"


  Remember how you felt when you
  
  
  
came around?


  
  groggy


  Did you puke?
no

Like the worst hangover you ever had?

not at all
   Now
  
  
  
you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
to go get references for this? 


  
  you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how 
it works.


It's a waste of time for something so
  
  
  
obvious.  I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room 
last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL


  
  this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as 
a general anesthetic for major surgery.  Do you have a reference or two 
to support your claim?


  
  
  
Joe

bob allen wrote:



  Joe Street wrote:
  
  
  
  
Hi Bob;


  

snip



  
explanation for acupuncture but they do major

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof



Joe Street wrote:
 Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob!  I like the way you 
 cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected 
 the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the 
 sham group .here
 
 However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA 
 over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and 
 deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex.

I edited at this point as the following does not describe the 
aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites.

   Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, 
but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that 
acupuncture works as an anesthetic.



 
 BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make 
 more money writing historical fiction for bushco

please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary

   No I haven't had
 surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic.  But I do have a testimonial about 
 how a chinese herbalist


You're changing the subject Joe.  I have yet to see you respond to my 
calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for 
anesthesia in major surgery.  Come on, where the support for your claim.



cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6
 months and western treatments were worse than ineffective.  But I know 
 you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better 
 on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that 
 time. LMAO. OK OK.  lets just drop the subject I guess.  We each have 
 our own viewpoints and leave it at that.

we already quite herbs but now you bring them back.  The subject is 
proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery.  A pretty simple premise

 
 Joe
 
 bob allen wrote:
 Joe Street wrote:
   
 Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this:

 http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/0016/0004/art01145
 

 much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery 
 is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a 
 method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked 
 with needles.

 Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain 
 have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary 
 findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the 
 pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation...

 Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point 
 Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or 
 minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject 
 analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported 
 distributed pain neuromatrix...


 what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the 
 treatment.  This is a far cry from your claim.



 You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn:  have 
 you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia?  Or do you 
 know anybody personally that has?  You made a specific claim and so far 
 have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below.  I am not 
 trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, 
 consistent with the scientific method.




   
 I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my 
 point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got 
 to be better.
 I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lotnone of 
 them are terrorists that I know oflol) that lots of surgical 
 procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China.

 Joe

 bob allen wrote:
 
 Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture?  sure 
 there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is 
 not the discussion here.  You made a claim that major operations are 
 done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic.  I personally doubt it 
 but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you 
 or someone else says so, doesn't make it so.  here a a site I found,

 http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34

 you show me what you have.


 Joe Street wrote:
   
   
 Hey Bob;

 Ever been under general anaesthesia? 
 
 
 yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a game keepers thumb


   Remember how you felt when you
   
   
 came around?
 
 
 groggy


   Did you puke?
 no

 Like the worst hangover you ever had?

 not at all
Now
   
   
 you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a  wound isn't gonna be 
 easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death 
 for a few hours on top of the injury?  Come off it man. Do I really have 
 to go get references for this? 
 
 
 you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific 
 evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the

Re: [Biofuel] testimonials as proof