Proof schmoof. I'm here to tell you it works. I pricked my finger on a spindle and slept for 99 days.
-W Joe Street wrote: > Hi Bob; > > Sorry for the cheap shot I thought you would take it as good natured > humour which is the way it was intended. Well I'm no neurologist but I > thought the sensory motor cortex is where a lot of that sensation > stuff goes on. I know this because my daughter has partial seizures > in that very area and she experiences pain every time she has a > seizure. If accupuncture results in higher activation thresholds ( ie > deactivation) in that area does that not mean effectively - > anaesthesia? That was how I understood the paper but perhaps I have it > all wrong. Anyways I felt it WAS the serious support for my argument > that you asked for. The other comment re the herb cure was just added > as an offhand remark, again with humour, not intended to change the > subject or run from anything, as I said I felt I had a strong > reference as it was. > > Cheers > Joe > > bob allen wrote: > >>Joe Street wrote: >> >> >>>Hey that's a nifty bit of editing you did there Bob! I like the way you >>>cut it off just before the bit that said the actual acupuncture affected >>>the activation level of the sensory cortex significantly MORE than the >>>sham group .....here >>> >>>"However, real EA elicited significantly higher activation than sham EA >>>over the hypothalamus and primary somatosensory–motor cortex and >>>deactivation over the rostral segment of anterior cingulate cortex." >>> >>> >> >>I edited at this point as the following does not describe the >>aforementioned pain- related neuromatrix, but rather other sites. >> >> Translated: we didn't find activity where we think pain is involved, >>but look at what we found, regardless, none of this confirms that >>acupuncture works as an anesthetic. >> >> >> >> >> >>>BTW do you work for the ministry of truth? ROFL. Maybe you could make >>>more money writing historical fiction for bushco.... >>> >>> >> >>please, this is a cheap shot and unnecessary >> >> No I haven't had >> >> >>>surgery with acupuncture anaesthetic. But I do have a testimonial about >>>how a chinese herbalist >>> >>> >> >> >>You're changing the subject Joe. I have yet to see you respond to my >>calling for data to support your claim that acupuncture is used for >>anesthesia in major surgery. Come on, where the support for your claim. >> >> >> >>cured me of an illness that I suffered for 6 >> >> >>>months and western treatments were worse than ineffective. But I know >>>you won't be interested in that. No doubt I was just about to get better >>>on my own and happened to take that herbal tea coincidentally at that >>>time. LMAO. OK OK. lets just drop the subject I guess. We each have >>>our own viewpoints and leave it at that. >>> >>> >> >>we already quite herbs but now you bring them back. The subject is >>proof of the use of acupuncture for major surgery. A pretty simple premise >> >> >> >>>Joe >>> >>>bob allen wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>Ok Bob, maybe you'll like this: >>>>> >>>>>http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ap/ni/2002/00000016/00000004/art01145 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>much better, but a far cry from supporting your claim that major surgery >>>>is done with only acupuncture as an anesthetic. The abstract describes a >>>>method of observing electrical activity in the brain due to being poked >>>>with needles. >>>> >>>>"Recently, neuronal correlates of acupuncture stimulation in human brain >>>>have been investigated by functional neuroimaging. The preliminary >>>>findings suggest that acupuncture at analgesic points involves the >>>>pain-related neuromatrix and may have acupoint–brain correlation... >>>> >>>>Fifteen healthy volunteers received real EA at analgesic point >>>>Gallbladder 34 (Yanglinquan), sham EA, and one of either mock EA or >>>>minimal EA over the left leg in counter-balanced orders. Multisubject >>>>analysis showed that sham EA and real EA both activated the reported >>>>distributed pain neuromatrix... >>>> >>>> >>>>what this says to me is that the placebo worked as well as the >>>>treatment. This is a far cry from your claim. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>You asked me if I have had general anesthesia, so now its my turn: have >>>>you had surgery which utilized acupuncture for anesthesia? Or do you >>>>know anybody personally that has? You made a specific claim and so far >>>>have provided no evidence other than the hearsay given below. I am not >>>>trying to be obtuse here, I am just demanding a high level of evidence, >>>>consistent with the scientific method. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I hope that is scientific enough for you on the efficacy issue, but my >>>>>point was that if surgery can be performed without anaesthetic it's got >>>>>to be better. >>>>>I am told by Chinese students here ( which there are a lot....none of >>>>>them are terrorists that I know of....lol) that lots of surgical >>>>>procedures are done with accupuncture anaesthesia in China. >>>>> >>>>>Joe >>>>> >>>>>bob allen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Howdy Joe, is this your support for the efficacy of acupuncture? sure >>>>>>there are side effects from the use of general anesthesia, but that is >>>>>>not the discussion here. You made a claim that major operations are >>>>>>done using only acupuncture as the anesthetic. I personally doubt it >>>>>>but am open to discussion if you provide some evidence. Just because you >>>>>>or someone else says so, doesn't make it so. here a a site I found, >>>>>> >>>>>>http://www.ebm-first.com/?cat=34 >>>>>> >>>>>>you show me what you have. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Hey Bob; >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ever been under general anaesthesia? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>yes, a couple of years ago for repair of a "game keepers thumb" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Remember how you felt when you >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>came around? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>groggy >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Did you puke? >>>>>>no >>>>>> >>>>>>Like the worst hangover you ever had? >>>>>> >>>>>>not at all >>>>>> Now >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>you're gonna argue with me that recovering from a wound isn't gonna be >>>>>>>easier without having to deal with being poisoned to the brink of death >>>>>>>for a few hours on top of the injury? Come off it man. Do I really have >>>>>>>to go get references for this? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>you made a claim about acupuncture, I have seen very little scientific >>>>>>evidence of it working and I certainly don't buy the explanation of how >>>>>>it works. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>It's a waste of time for something so >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>obvious. I saw lots of people looking sick as hell in the recovery room >>>>>>>last time I was there, but that's anecdotal of course. LOL >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>this has nothing to do with the claim of the efficacy of acupuncture as >>>>>>a general anesthetic for major surgery. Do you have a reference or two >>>>>>to support your claim? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>>bob allen wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Joe Street wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hi Bob; >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>snip >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>explanation for acupuncture but they do major operations without >>>>>>>>>anaesthetic and recoveries are better without poisoning the body with >>>>>>>>>anaesthetic. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>ok I'll bite, show me the data that supports this claim non-testimonial >>>>>>>>please. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>>>messages): >>>>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>>> >>>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>>> >>>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>>messages): >>>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>>> >>>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>>> >>>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>>messages): >>>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>Biofuel mailing list >>>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>>> >>>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>>> >>>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 >>>>messages): >>>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Biofuel mailing list >>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org >>> >>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >>> >>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >Biofuel mailing list >Biofuel@sustainablelists.org >http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): >http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
