Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. Joe Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do "stir washing" of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit "waterized" after third stir wash and this stay at least three days. Maybe more but I have gave the batch for physical analysis. With KOH water goes out more rapidly. In both processes esterification is 92-93%. In monday I'll know how much water has in the batch after third wash and after 95 degrees Celsius for one hour. Will inform about results, but I think the quantity will be in ppm's. At 23:13 17.12.05, you wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16.Dec.05 CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria Phone: +359887000332 FAX: +35997382758 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Hi At 16:48 19.12.2005 'ã.', you wrote: Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? No. I mean 200 ml methil ester washed with 56 ml pure water. After heating for couple of minutes up to 55 deg. C it looks just fine. BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. This is only to test quantity of water inside the BD. Really I noticed well done drying is possible with 55-60 deg C (the same temperature used by me for the main process. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. These pumps are not expensive in the US, but here they are about $500. Oil inside the pump is extremely water sensitive. 15 or 25 micron of vacuum isn't necessary for this job. Better is to use simple vacuum pump for old dentist chair for example. Or few years before (now I don't know) was wide available in eBay vacuum pumps motorized by compressed air. Joe Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do stir washing of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit waterized after third stir wash and this stay at least three days. Maybe more but I have gave the batch for physical analysis. With KOH water goes out more rapidly. In both processes esterification is 92-93%. In monday I'll know how much water has in the batch after third wash and after 95 degrees Celsius for one hour. Will inform about results, but I think the quantity will be in ppm's. At 23:13 17.12.05, you wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16.Dec.05 CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria Phone: +359887000332 FAX: +35997382758 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/207 - Release Date: 19.12.2005 ã. Vaklin Hristov CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
a/c compressors or refrigerator compressors will produce enough vacuum but they are also designed to allow thier crankase oil to circulate through the system. if it is not captured and returned they don't run for very long -- Original message -- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. Joe Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do stir washing of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit waterized after third stir wash and this stay at least three days. Maybe more but I have gave the batch for physical analysis. With KOH water goes out more rapidly. In both processes esterification is 92-93%. In monday I'll know how much water has in the batch after third wash and after 95 degrees Celsius for one hour. Will inform about results, but I think the quantity will be in ppm's. At 23:13 17.12.05, you wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16.Dec.05 CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria Phone: +359887000332 FAX: +35997382758 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ---BeginMessage--- Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. Joe Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do "stir washing" of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit "waterized"
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Again here main problem is water. Compressors for R134a are lubricated with ester oil and the ester oil loses lubricant feature very shortly in high humidity. As Rumen said, the best way is vacuum pump from any diesel engine. At 04:13 20.12.05, you wrote: a/c compressors or refrigerator compressors will produce enough vacuum but they are also designed to allow thier crankase oil to circulate through the system. if it is not captured and returned they don't run for very long -- Original message -- From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. Joe Vaklin Hristov wrote: Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do stir washing of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit waterized after third stir wash and this stay at least three days. Maybe more but I have gave the batch for physical analysis. With KOH water goes out more rapidly. In both processes esterification is 92-93%. In monday I'll know how much water has in the batch after third wash and after 95 degrees Celsius for one hour. Will inform about results, but I think the quantity will be in ppm's. At 23:13 17.12.05, you wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16.Dec.05 CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria Phone: +359887000332 FAX: +35997382758 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ From: Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:49:09 + Content-Type: Multipart/mixed; boundary=NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_25556_1135044792_1 Hi Vakin; Thanks for your input. When you say 200 ml RO do you mean you wash a 1 liter test batch with 200 ml of reverse osmosis water? BTW 95 deg. C is pretty warm it may dry the fuel quicker but there are some notes on J2F that indicate biodiesel can oxidize. It may be accelerated at that temperature unless you use CO2 or N2 blanket to keep air away. Also it takes more energy to heat the fuel that much. Just a thought. Also I heard one can use an automotive air conditioner compressor as a vacuum pump. Don't know what level of vacuum it can produce but it is worth a try if the price is right. Joe Vaklin
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Hello Mike, Joe and all Along the lines of testing or thinking outside the box I've been up to 5 things which may be on interest: 1. Titrating - I've taken to using titrating more as a starting point these days - now I usually make 6 - 8 mini batches and just look to see which gives the best yield. I am putting together a more formal system. 8 small batches of MoX and then into 8 mini Dr Pepper method small bottles. Since this I haven't had any strange results. This is not to say I didn't have a lot of failures - plenty of glop, weird seperations and so on. Most were useful in that I learned what not to do. 2. Been tinkering with Silica beads to absorb any left over water. Work well in practice but haven't scaled it up yet. 3. (This not new) - been heating the final product - I have an odd collection of home-built processors - one has a sealed glass lid so I can watch what goes on. Interesting thing seems to be that even with settled washed BD sometimes I see a little residue at the end of the heating process which seems to be water. Not a constant phenomenon. I would have to do more research before I would say that the heat releases water? Could well be a fluke. When you heat it and cool it some of any water content drops out at the bottom and some evaporates, so use vented containers for cooling. Probably it'll just reabsorb some of what it just lost from the air but maybe it doesn't matter, diesel fuel-water emulsions have good emissions results, any dissolved water in biodiesel might do the same, if it stays dissolved. 4. Will and have been tinkering with using ISA w/ Methanol. I don't think this will prove too useful to anyone except me, as I have 55 gallons of the stuff on hand. Someone did email me curious about whether it improved the cold weather behavior of the BD. He suggested a freezer test. The only real value I see here is if there is any improvement of the final product. It does allegedly have much better cold-weather properties and quite a few people have tried it, but without any success. Maybe a mix might work, it would be interesting to know. Pure isopropanol biodiesel apparently needs an enzyme process, I just posted a patent on it in the BioButanol thread. One list member did try enzymes, but it was the wrong enzyme and they couldn't get hold of the right one. 5. As most listers know, I have been struggling off and on with using BD to power the whole process. I have a 10 gallon stainless reactor which I want to heat with a PetroMax stove. My current workshop it unheated so I have been not at this recently. It's been very cold for this part of the country. The Ballad of the Cold Shed, I know it well... Our workshop's below freezing all the time now. There's a kero space heater there but it's not the equal of the shed's really good ventilation. (Very old shed.) I am sure some of the above has been covered. If anything proves useful or interesting I will write it up and post it. Please do! -Mike Joe Street wrote: Good points there Todd; I would like to add though that it is really informative to those of us on the list with less experience when we read posts such as these and though information may be somewhat anecdotal or even if somewhat scientific if it is less than rigorous it may still be of use if it is taken as such. If we do have time we should investigate these questions. For instance recently I posted a question similar to this asking the membership for a feeling on how much water content can be lived with in oil at the starting point. I know I had at least one cc of water in my last batch of 25 liters which equals at least 40 ppm water content. The batch still washed very easily and passes the water and methanol tests. It's a hard question to give a straight answer to, too many variables and nobody does exactly the same thing. So everyone (including me) says No water, but as you discovered it's not strictly true. It's good advice just the same, especially for novices, no need for variables you can quite easily get rid of. Once you've got all the other factors in your processing stable then it makes sense. The higher the FFA level of the oil the more water it's likely to contain, the more difficult it will be to remove the water, and the less tolerant of water the process will be, and vice versa. So at below what FFA level will the process (whichever process) tolerate how much water? I think KOH is more water-tolerant than NaOH, but I haven't done any tests. There's often some water in our oil, though it's very little, and I take no notice of it, with the same results as you - easy washing and it passes all the tests, including lab tests. But we don't use a standard process so giving a measure probably wouldn't help much even if I had one. I have not reprocessed it but I will have NMR results for it in time. It would be good to know just where the limits are with this. Also how much glycerine will
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Kewl! A form of water injection. Well I think the water will not be good for the injection pump. If only it was machined from stainless steel it would be ok I think. Keeping the fuel and water emulsified would be a bit of a trick, and in cold weather.uh oh. Joe Rumen Slavov wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Hi! Some time before (I mean early '80) many automotive enthusiast add a water injector to their carburetors. Bit better mileage with the same power. Return line for diesel engines has a enough quantity of fuel to do stir washing of your BD. Important is to not get fresh water into the pump! This can be done with some modernization of your fuel tank. BTW my test batches (200 ml RO) with NaOH as catalyst every time looks bit waterized after third stir wash and this stay at least three days. Maybe more but I have gave the batch for physical analysis. With KOH water goes out more rapidly. In both processes esterification is 92-93%. In monday I'll know how much water has in the batch after third wash and after 95 degrees Celsius for one hour. Will inform about results, but I think the quantity will be in ppm's. At 23:13 17.12.05, you wrote: Just an addition: In my early batches I was so curious how the BD will affect the engine I did that test-after the third wash the fuel was something like Fanta orange,with lot of water dispersed within,but I pour it in the tank.My Renault 11 was just fine.Then I heated the BD to dewater it and what I found?The MPG raised and some loss of power appeared(5-8%).The same BD with water was better fuel than without water.The mean problem is that the water does not stays dispersed!I recall in the early `80 there was a Russian invention how to mix gasoline with water by means of piezo-quartz(ultrasonic frequency)submerged in the tank,but all I can remember is only the idea!Nowadays I read somewhere someone was trying to rich the same effect by azeothrop agents. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.1/206 - Release Date: 16.Dec.05 CAR DIAGNOSE Ltd. P.O. Box 79 3320 Kozloduy Bulgaria Phone: +359887000332 FAX: +35997382758 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Teoman, Sounds like suspended water particles in your BD. I get this all the time, especially with more aggressive washing techniques. Leave your BD to stand for a week or so, or warm it up a little, and the water should settle out leaving you with clear BD again. If you have tried re-processing without any more glycerin dropping out, but are still doubtful of the quality, try some of the other JtF recommended quality tests, such as dissolving a sample in pure methanol. If you get a portion that does not dissolve, you may still have unprocessed oil in your batch. Hope this helps. Reg'ds Bob - Original Message - From: Teoman Naskali [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2005 2:28 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts I let some of my BD settle for about 2 months (indoors, 22 degrees celcius) and by the time I got to the washing stage I noticed that it was rather clear with some white sediment at the bottom. And when I washed It I did not observe much soap formation. And the separation was almost immediate like I was mixing vegetable oil and water. Now after two days the water still looks fairly clear. The bd is slightly cloudy. First I worried that I hadnt completed the process and that what I was washing was more vegetable oil rather thatn Bd, but reprocessing it didn't give any glycerine. Is there any error here? Thanks for any advice Teoman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:01 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts ReZn0r, Settling time is simply letting gravity do the separation work for you, rather than enlisting equipment such as centrifuges. The more glycerol/soap that is extracted by settling the less impediment to the subsequent step, whether it be stage two or washing. Todd Swearingen Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Good points there Todd; I would like to add though that it is really informative to those of us on the list with less experience when we read posts such as these and though information may be somewhat anecdotal or even if somewhat scientific if it is less than rigorous it may still be of use if it is taken as such. If we do have time we should investigate these questions. For instance recently I posted a question similar to this asking the membership for a feeling on how much water content can be lived with in oil at the starting point. I know I had at least one cc of water in my last batch of 25 liters which equals at least 40 ppm water content. The batch still washed very easily and passes the water and methanol tests. I have not reprocessed it but I will have NMR results for it in time. It would be good to know just where the limits are with this. Also how much glycerine will poison the wash. I'm sure some people have a better feel for this than others even if it may not be completely scientific. There have been a few brave souls on here who have talked about their failures but not many since I've been here (about a year now I guess). Human nature I guess but if anyone does have some experience that sheds light on some of these questions please share. Personally I am trying to find out how much I can shorten settling times also. I think time can be saved especially in the early washes by reducing settling times for one example but I only learn a little bit with each batch and there are a lot of things I want to investigate. Does it make sense for us to organize some type of 'controlled' testing amongst a group of us who have a stable reliable process? I can only change one variable at a time but if I can get 10 people to do the same, with different variables or differing amounts of the same variable it will reduce the learning curve considerably. Is anyone else interested or willing to put effort into the idea? Joe Appal Energy wrote: Snip ReZn0r, All this is done in microscopic amounts and may not amount to any discernible difference between samples that have settled twelve hours or samples that have settled six. There is really only one way to determine whether or not there is any significant difference between the two end results. That would be to conduct the testing. On a firsthand note, as we don't use two-stage base processing, opting instead for acid/base processing. As a result, we're not exactly in a position to inform you definitively one way or the other. It's also rather doubtful that very many people are in such a position, if only for the reason that it would take some rather controlled experimentation and the majority probably don't have the time or facilities to conduct such testing. On the other hand, it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to conduct some basic/crude testing at your own leisure to see if you can discern any noticeable difference. A fair guess is that you wouldn't notice much, if any. Perhaps what another question might be is Do you really have need of expediting a process? If so, such as in an industrial/commercial environment, testing might hold more validity for you than other bears of average brain. Todd Swearingen ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Along the lines of testing or thinking outside the box I've been up to 5 things which may be on interest: 1. Titrating - I've taken to using titrating more as a starting point these days - now I usually make 6 - 8 mini batches and just look to see which gives the best yield. I am putting together a more formal system. 8 small batches of MoX and then into 8 mini Dr Pepper method small bottles. Since this I haven't had any strange results. This is not to say I didn't have a lot of failures - plenty of glop, weird seperations and so on. Most were useful in that I learned what not to do. 2. Been tinkering with Silica beads to absorb any left over water. Work well in practice but haven't scaled it up yet. 3. (This not new) - been heating the final product - I have an odd collection of home-built processors - one has a sealed glass lid so I can watch what goes on. Interesting thing seems to be that even with settled washed BD sometimes I see a little residue at the end of the heating process which seems to be water. Not a constant phenomenon. I would have to do more research before I would say that the heat releases water? Could well be a fluke. 4. Will and have been tinkering with using ISA w/ Methanol. I don't think this will prove too useful to anyone except me, as I have 55 gallons of the stuff on hand. Someone did email me curious about whether it improved the cold weather behavior of the BD. He suggested a freezer test. The only real value I see here is if there is any improvement of the final product. 5. As most listers know, I have been struggling off and on with using BD to power the whole process. I have a 10 gallon stainless reactor which I want to heat with a PetroMax stove. My current workshop it unheated so I have been not at this recently. It's been very cold for this part of the country. I am sure some of the above has been covered. If anything proves useful or interesting I will write it up and post it. -Mike Joe Street wrote: Good points there Todd; I would like to add though that it is really informative to those of us on the list with less experience when we read posts such as these and though information may be somewhat anecdotal or even if somewhat scientific if it is less than rigorous it may still be of use if it is taken as such. If we do have time we should investigate these questions. For instance recently I posted a question similar to this asking the membership for a feeling on how much water content can be lived with in oil at the starting point. I know I had at least one cc of water in my last batch of 25 liters which equals at least 40 ppm water content. The batch still washed very easily and passes the water and methanol tests. I have not reprocessed it but I will have NMR results for it in time. It would be good to know just where the limits are with this. Also how much glycerine will poison the wash. I'm sure some people have a better feel for this than others even if it may not be completely scientific. There have been a few brave souls on here who have talked about their failures but not many since I've been here (about a year now I guess). Human nature I guess but if anyone does have some experience that sheds light on some of these questions please share. Personally I am trying to find out how much I can shorten settling times also. I think time can be saved especially in the early washes by reducing settling times for one example but I only learn a little bit with each batch and there are a lot of things I want to investigate. Does it make sense for us to organize some type of 'controlled' testing amongst a group of us who have a stable reliable process? I can only change one variable at a time but if I can get 10 people to do the same, with different variables or differing amounts of the same variable it will reduce the learning curve considerably. Is anyone else interested or willing to put effort into the idea? Joe Appal Energy wrote: Snip ReZn0r, All this is done in microscopic amounts and may not amount to any discernible difference between samples that have settled twelve hours or samples that have settled six. There is really only one way to determine whether or not there is any significant difference between the two end results. That would be to conduct the testing. On a firsthand note, as we don't use two-stage base processing, opting instead for acid/base processing. As a result, we're not exactly in a position to inform you definitively one way or the other. It's also rather doubtful that very many people are in such a position, if only for the reason that it would take some rather controlled experimentation and the majority probably don't have the time or facilities to conduct such testing. On the other hand, it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to conduct some basic/crude testing at your own leisure to see if you can discern any noticeable difference.
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
I would concur with you on point number three. Right from my first test batch with 1 liter of new oil I noticed that the BD at the end of washing is cloudy and I heated it with a stainless immersion (rod) heater (in a 2 liter flask) and little drops of water would form at the heater and drop out. Now I do everything in the reactor and after the last wash I heat the whole thing again to 50 degrees C and some liquid water can be drained out. Then I evacuate the reactor until I get to 28 Hg and the BD comes out crystal clear and ready for use. It remains clear upon cooling. What I find in the liquid trap, ahead of my vacuum pump, appears to be water. I haven't tasted it ;-) Pics of my stuff are here: http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Reactor.html Joe Mike Weaver wrote: Along the lines of testing or thinking outside the box I've been up to 5 things which may be on interest: 1. Titrating - I've taken to using titrating more as a starting point these days - now I usually make 6 - 8 mini batches and just look to see which gives the best yield. I am putting together a more formal system. 8 small batches of MoX and then into 8 mini Dr Pepper method small bottles. Since this I haven't had any strange results. This is not to say I didn't have a lot of failures - plenty of glop, weird seperations and so on. Most were useful in that I learned what not to do. 2. Been tinkering with Silica beads to absorb any left over water. Work well in practice but haven't scaled it up yet. 3. (This not new) - been heating the final product - I have an odd collection of home-built processors - one has a sealed glass lid so I can watch what goes on. Interesting thing seems to be that even with settled washed BD sometimes I see a little residue at the end of the heating process which seems to be water. Not a constant phenomenon. I would have to do more research before I would say that the heat releases water? Could well be a fluke. 4. Will and have been tinkering with using ISA w/ Methanol. I don't think this will prove too useful to anyone except me, as I have 55 gallons of the stuff on hand. Someone did email me curious about whether it improved the cold weather behavior of the BD. He suggested a freezer test. The only real value I see here is if there is any improvement of the final product. 5. As most listers know, I have been struggling off and on with using BD to power the whole process. I have a 10 gallon stainless reactor which I want to heat with a PetroMax stove. My current workshop it unheated so I have been not at this recently. It's been very cold for this part of the country. I am sure some of the above has been covered. If anything proves useful or interesting I will write it up and post it. -Mike ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
ReZn0r, Settling time is simply letting gravity do the separation work for you, rather than enlisting equipment such as centrifuges. The more glycerol/soap that is extracted by settling the less impediment to the subsequent step, whether it be stage two or washing. Todd Swearingen Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
Hi Appal, Con fecha miércoles, 14 de diciembre de 2005, 14:00:32, escribiste: Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english AE ReZn0r, AE Settling time is simply letting gravity do the separation work for AE you, rather than enlisting equipment such as centrifuges. The more AE glycerol/soap that is extracted by settling the less impediment to the AE subsequent step, whether it be stage two or washing. AE Todd Swearingen Hi Todd Thx for reply I Agree with this and for sure is very important to let settle before wash, but I want to know if is there any problem in the second stage if we have 5% for example of total glycerine from the first stage inside the mix of the second one... (I think 95% of glycerine settles in less than 1 hour, correct me if I am wrong) AE ___ AE Biofuel mailing list AE Biofuel@sustainablelists.org AE http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org AE Biofuel at Journey to Forever: AE http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html AE Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): AE http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Un Saludo, ReZn0rmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
I've had a question about the two-stage, base-base method as well. My second stage resulted in such a little amount of glycerin it didn't seem worth the extra time or effort. Any comments? I suppose the removal of this last tablespoon of glycerin gets my BD to ASTM standards for free glycerin, but it seems alot of work for a little result, when I'm only using the stuff myself. KF On Wed, 14 Dec 2005, ReZn0r wrote: Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
I let some of my BD settle for about 2 months (indoors, 22 degrees celcius) and by the time I got to the washing stage I noticed that it was rather clear with some white sediment at the bottom. And when I washed It I did not observe much soap formation. And the separation was almost immediate like I was mixing vegetable oil and water. Now after two days the water still looks fairly clear. The bd is slightly cloudy. First I worried that I hadnt completed the process and that what I was washing was more vegetable oil rather thatn Bd, but reprocessing it didn't give any glycerine. Is there any error here? Thanks for any advice Teoman -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Appal Energy Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 3:01 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts ReZn0r, Settling time is simply letting gravity do the separation work for you, rather than enlisting equipment such as centrifuges. The more glycerol/soap that is extracted by settling the less impediment to the subsequent step, whether it be stage two or washing. Todd Swearingen Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.or g Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] two stage proccess... doubts
ReZn0r, All chemical reactions, in one way shape or form, are reactions of equilibrium. And the results of many reactions are less than desired if the chemical balance is only one of stoichiometric balance. Hence the need on many occasions to use excess amounts of one chemical or another in an equation to drive the reaction in the direction desired. Relative to allowing enough time for the glycerol cocktail (glycerin, methanol, excess catalyst and soap) to settle out of the first stage before conducting the second? Without controlled testing to quantify the differences between trials/samples, about all that can be said is that the presence of glycerol will naturally attract some of the methanol (like seeks like), as might whatever fraction of soap is present, possibly preventing an unknown fraction of the methanol from randomly interacting with the unconverted glycerides as it might have normally had the first stage been allowed to settle sufficiently. The same holds true for the catalyst, as some water is generated in a transesterification. This small amount largely settles out with everything else in a base reaction. As the catalyst is hydrophyllic, its first tendency is to gravitate towards water, which in turn will bind up a small portion rather than allowing it to perform its function. All this is done in microscopic amounts and may not amount to any discernible difference between samples that have settled twelve hours or samples that have settled six. There is really only one way to determine whether or not there is any significant difference between the two end results. That would be to conduct the testing. On a firsthand note, as we don't use two-stage base processing, opting instead for acid/base processing. As a result, we're not exactly in a position to inform you definitively one way or the other. It's also rather doubtful that very many people are in such a position, if only for the reason that it would take some rather controlled experimentation and the majority probably don't have the time or facilities to conduct such testing. On the other hand, it shouldn't be too terribly difficult to conduct some basic/crude testing at your own leisure to see if you can discern any noticeable difference. A fair guess is that you wouldn't notice much, if any. Perhaps what another question might be is Do you really have need of expediting a process? If so, such as in an industrial/commercial environment, testing might hold more validity for you than other bears of average brain. Todd Swearingen Hi Appal, Con fecha miércoles, 14 de diciembre de 2005, 14:00:32, escribiste: Hi We are making BD with a homemade reactor (80 liters). We have used de single stage and de two stage (base-base) methods succesfuly, but we still having many doubts :) In the two stages method described in journeytoforever, the mix settle around 12 h between first and second stage before extract the glycerine. It?s necessary to settle so many time? It?s bad if any glycerine is not decanted and is mixed in the second stage? Is there any trick to avoid to wait 12 h between first and second stage? Many thx in advance and sorry for my bad english AE ReZn0r, AE Settling time is simply letting gravity do the separation work for AE you, rather than enlisting equipment such as centrifuges. The more AE glycerol/soap that is extracted by settling the less impediment to the AE subsequent step, whether it be stage two or washing. AE Todd Swearingen Hi Todd Thx for reply I Agree with this and for sure is very important to let settle before wash, but I want to know if is there any problem in the second stage if we have 5% for example of total glycerine from the first stage inside the mix of the second one... (I think 95% of glycerine settles in less than 1 hour, correct me if I am wrong) AE ___ AE Biofuel mailing list AE Biofuel@sustainablelists.org AE http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org AE Biofuel at Journey to Forever: AE http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html AE Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): AE http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
