Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Keith- Thanks for your comments and the very helpful links. I would very much like to carry on this discussion on the agricultural aspects of oil production after I have had a chance to study the links and other information in more detail. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Hello Bruce Ed- Your insights into these issues is helpful to me, and I'm sure, to others. (I am aware of some of your work in this area, as some months ago your partner Craig made me aware of your Master's thesis and I actually read it!) I would love to top Alex's 300,000 km benchmark, but it will take some time at the rate that I drive. Like him, I am not using any WVO, as I want to take a very conservative approach to this, and that may help to extend the life of my engine. However, there is another reason that I don't use WVO (and this may be worthy of another discussion thread.) In my work, I am attempting to develop and espouse a model of worldwide personal transportation sustainability, and also practice what I preach. The limited volume of WVO simply does not lend itself to such a model. I have serious doubts as to whether even Canola, sunflower, camelina sativa or any other annual row crop can be justified in such a worldwide model, as these would compete with food crops if produced on a very large scale, they use considerable energy to produce, and require water, weeding, and pest control. It can be done sustainably, but indeed not via industrialised monocropping. I said this before: If you just swap fuels instead of changing the entire disaster you'll end up with wall-to-wall industrialized monocrops of GMO soy and canola. Big Biofuels may not turn out to be much better than Big Oil. Silly thing about it is that industrialized monocropping of biofuels crops would be (is) just as fossil-fuel-dependent as industrialized monocropping of anything else is. What's the use of finding a cure for cancer if it gives you a heart attack? You can find messages in the list archives from organic farmers in the US raising maize and soy at equal or better yields than the so-called conventional chemicalised farmers next door with their much higher fossil-fuel inputs and higher costs too, and without the externalised costs associated with chemicalised farming practices, such as depleted soil (the farm's capital). I've proposed, and others have agreed, that it's quite possible to raise energy crops without the use of any dedicated land at all or dedicated anything else, as by-products of the ever-changing cropping patterns used on sustainable, integrated farms, and without any fossil-fuel inputs. Don't forget a lot of those food crops aren't really food crops at all. This is worth a look: Food or Fuel? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_food.html#grainexports On How much fuel can we grow? and How much land will it take?, you might find these previous posts of interest: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1395/ http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUELS-BIZ/1801/ When there are hardy perennial oil producing plants like Jatropha that grow for up to 50 years in otherwise unusable soil in semi arid climates with virtually no maintenance requirements, and also can serve to as a natural fence, wind break and source of medicinal compounds, it seems like that is where the focus should be (and I am in the process of importing some seeds, planning a trip to Africa, and otherwise investigating this.) I agree with you, very much, but with the reservation that, for all jatropha's advantages, and those of other similar crops, there's no single best answer to this. Each situation requires a different solution, or at least a fresh appraisal, and local involvement is essential at all levels, including all decisions and choices. There are almost always local energy crops, or weeds, or wild plants, that could be exploited, and past experience with rural development projects shows that such local resources usually perform better than imports such as jatropha or whatever, regardless of yields. If, that is, by performance one means overall community benefit. Which you do mean. I am also approaching the longevity issue from an entirely different angle. I have developed a generator powered by a Kubota diesel engine. The engine was sent to Elsbett in Germany for conversion to SVO and I am very pleased with its performance. The generator can be used for stand alone power generation, but was really developed with the idea of incorporating it into a hybrid electric vehicle. With such a system, one can
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Ed- Some comments: Also, it would be very good to see this undertaken as someone's academic work, and to see more testing done in an updated way via funded research here in Canada and the USA, as well as elsewhere in the world. I see incredible enthusiasm and interest in the entire area of sustainable fuels from students, and someone could perform a huge service for this cause by introducing students at all levels to the possibilities of studying the chemistry, physics, agriculture, biology, social, economic, political and business aspects and implications of sustainable fuels. For long term, large scale use (and I've just been having a very good discussion with Michael Briggs at the University of Vermont about this, do you know him?) then there are all sorts of production models and issues to discuss - a very large topic. I don't know Michael Briggs, but would like to know of his work. Maybe you could encourage him to participate in this forum. (SVO powered generator project) Yes, also very much of interest to me, and mentioned earlier to me - how is that going? Absolutely. Is all of this a commercial project, or will you be doing all this as a non-profit enterprise in future? Either way, congratulations on bringing it along, and keep in touch - we have very similar interests on these topics. I have successfully coupled a three phase induction motor to the SVO powered Kubota, and, with associated circuitry, run this motor as an induction generator (patent applied for). (As you may know, a three phase induction motor is rugged, simple in design (no brushes or slip rings), efficient, very economical, readily available, and is produced in sizes from about 5 HP to hundreds (or even thousands) of HP or KW.) I have developed, but not totally completed, an embedded microcontroller that can monitor and control all engine parameters as well as fuel heating, battery charging, and other variables, and send this data to a virtual instrument panel on a PC which is then internet connectable. I am working on AC applications for stand alone power generation, or grid tied power generation where the customer is on a net metering contract with the utility. For the hybrid EV, the three phase output is rectified and then used to drive a DC motor and/or charge the batteries. I would like to first develop a vehicle around this which could demonstrate the feasibility of economical (100 miles/gal), low emissions, sustainably fueled personal transportation.(If you connect to: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html and then scroll down to Leading the way: Volkswagen 1-liter Concept, you will see that they are using a one cylinder diesel engine in a vehicle that they claim is achieving over 200 mpg (and it isn't even a hybrid!)). I think that such a demonstration vehicle could generate interest which could then take it to the next level, preferably on a for profit basis. I have engineering skills and reasonably good machining and fabrication capabilities at my shop in Alameda, CA, but am not versed in vehicle design or frame and body construction.If I could find someone or some group to merge capabilities, this could move forward. Another interesting application of the generator is for farm equipment. It would seem obviously compelling to offer farmers the choice of using oil that they can produce (or which is produced through a co-op) in machinery that they use to produce the oil producing crops (or other crops for that matter.) Frankly, I don't know how much farm equipment is already diesel powered, and if it would therefore be economically sensible to convert such equipment to diesel electric hybrid, or else to just convert it to run on SVO or to use biodiesel. If it is predominantly gasoline powered, then this could be interesting, and possibly a simpler initial undertaking than the hybrid EV. I have interest in this from someone raising Jatropha in Mexico. (He informs me that mechanical harvesting of Jatropha seeds is very advantageous.) As you know, even one demonstration project of this nature can garner beaucoup publicity and raise awareness and consciousness on a wide scale. Say, will you be able to make it to the SVO event at SolWest? Sounds like a possibility. I will be looking forward to seeing more information on this. Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, May 14, 2004 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 07:13 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Ed- Your insights into these issues is helpful to me, and I'm sure, to others. Thank you. (I am aware of some of your work in this area, as some months ago your partner Craig made me aware of your Master's thesis and I
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
On Friday, May 14, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Ed- Some comments: Also, it would be very good to see this undertaken as someone's academic work, and to see more testing done in an updated way via funded research here in Canada and the USA, as well as elsewhere in the world. I see incredible enthusiasm and interest in the entire area of sustainable fuels from students, and someone could perform a huge service for this cause by introducing students at all levels to the possibilities of studying the chemistry, physics, agriculture, biology, social, economic, political and business aspects and implications of sustainable fuels. I certainly agree with that! (I also do some part-time instructing at a university here, so get to hear from students about this quite a lot - and yes, I think it is time we had more programs focusing on renewable energy and the issues surrounding it. I've started making inquiries about this to see if a program might be started here at one of our provincial universities) For long term, large scale use (and I've just been having a very good discussion with Michael Briggs at the University of Vermont about this, do you know him?) then there are all sorts of production models and issues to discuss - a very large topic. I don't know Michael Briggs, but would like to know of his work. Maybe you could encourage him to participate in this forum. He may be on the list, but I will forward that to him. (SVO powered generator project) Yes, also very much of interest to me, and mentioned earlier to me - how is that going? Absolutely. SNIP ENDSNIP For the hybrid EV, the three phase output is rectified and then used to drive a DC motor and/or charge the batteries. I would like to first develop a vehicle around this which could demonstrate the feasibility of economical (100 miles/gal), low emissions, sustainably fueled personal transportation.(If you connect to: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html and then scroll down to Leading the way: Volkswagen 1-liter Concept, you will see that they are using a one cylinder diesel engine in a vehicle that they claim is achieving over 200 mpg (and it isn't even a hybrid!)). Yes, I have seen that and shown a copy of the article about it at shows - to let people here know just how much can be accomplished with the technologies we already have, if we choose to do so. Another interesting application of the generator is for farm equipment. It would seem obviously compelling to offer farmers the choice of using oil that they can produce (or which is produced through a co-op) in machinery that they use to produce the oil producing crops (or other crops for that matter.) Frankly, I don't know how much farm equipment is already diesel powered, and if it would therefore be economically sensible to convert such equipment to diesel electric hybrid, or else to just convert it to run on SVO or to use biodiesel. The majority of farm and marine applications are diesel. I think there's a lot of scope for greater use of biodiesel, SVO and DEH (diesel electric hybrid) on farms, in mobile equipment and in generators, etc. We just did some work with the people at Gaviotas, via a group from Boulder Biodiesel Co-op. They were down there helping get the biodiesel stuff going, and contacted me about a kit for a tractor. They got it installed just before leaving from their visit there. Wonderful stuff happening in India, too, like the Honge oil projects and the Indian railway projects. And, Dr. Peder Jensen's study of SVO for use in the European Union really highlighted what a good fit it all is for a closed loop system within agriculture. Also, the camelina Sativa project with the peas, that I mentioned, was a good demo of how you can grow an energy crop and a field crop together and get multiple benefits, and for the energy portion in that case it was found that the oil they got equalled the energy used to produce the crop, and no petroleum-based pesticides/carriers, so greater energy independence and sustainability. If it is predominantly gasoline powered, then this could be interesting, and possibly a simpler initial undertaking than the hybrid EV. Mostly diesel already (farmers have to be fuel-efficient!!), so biodiesel and SVO first, and DEH later, maybe. I have interest in this from someone raising Jatropha in Mexico. (He informs me that mechanical harvesting of Jatropha seeds is very advantageous.) As you know, even one demonstration project of this nature can garner beaucoup publicity and raise awareness and consciousness on a wide scale. Sure! Say, will you be able to make it to the SVO event at SolWest? Sounds like a possibility. I will be looking forward to seeing more information on this. Ok, well if you can make it, we'll hope to see you there. Edward Beggs www.biofuels.ca Bruce Colley
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Say, will you be able to make it to the SVO event at SolWest? Sounds like a possibility. I will be looking forward to seeing more information on this. Ok, well if you can make it, we'll hope to see you there. How about Solfest? Are you and other SVO people going to be there? As usual, it is shaping up to be a very good event. (Charris Ford told me a few days ago that he and Daryl Hanna are going to be speaking there, among others - extra incentive!) I would be interested in meeting with you and other SVO/WVO proponents to discuss various big picture topics. Although Biodiesel has received the majority of the publicity and attention up until now, I think that SVO/WVO in the long run has compelling advantages that will (or at least should) cause it to predominate. However, the Biodiesel people have their Biodiesel Board, Joshua Tickell, their celebrities, and other advantages. While Biodiesel is great, and both fuels have an important place, I would like to see the SVO proponents get organized. Maybe what is needed is at least some informal group or maybe even a trade association that can help to get the SVO message out, and educate, publicize, lobby, do research, and serve as an information clearinghouse in order to level the playing field relative to biodiesel. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2004 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? On Friday, May 14, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Ed- Some comments: Also, it would be very good to see this undertaken as someone's academic work, and to see more testing done in an updated way via funded research here in Canada and the USA, as well as elsewhere in the world. I see incredible enthusiasm and interest in the entire area of sustainable fuels from students, and someone could perform a huge service for this cause by introducing students at all levels to the possibilities of studying the chemistry, physics, agriculture, biology, social, economic, political and business aspects and implications of sustainable fuels. I certainly agree with that! (I also do some part-time instructing at a university here, so get to hear from students about this quite a lot - and yes, I think it is time we had more programs focusing on renewable energy and the issues surrounding it. I've started making inquiries about this to see if a program might be started here at one of our provincial universities) For long term, large scale use (and I've just been having a very good discussion with Michael Briggs at the University of Vermont about this, do you know him?) then there are all sorts of production models and issues to discuss - a very large topic. I don't know Michael Briggs, but would like to know of his work. Maybe you could encourage him to participate in this forum. He may be on the list, but I will forward that to him. (SVO powered generator project) Yes, also very much of interest to me, and mentioned earlier to me - how is that going? Absolutely. SNIP ENDSNIP For the hybrid EV, the three phase output is rectified and then used to drive a DC motor and/or charge the batteries. I would like to first develop a vehicle around this which could demonstrate the feasibility of economical (100 miles/gal), low emissions, sustainably fueled personal transportation.(If you connect to: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html and then scroll down to Leading the way: Volkswagen 1-liter Concept, you will see that they are using a one cylinder diesel engine in a vehicle that they claim is achieving over 200 mpg (and it isn't even a hybrid!)). Yes, I have seen that and shown a copy of the article about it at shows - to let people here know just how much can be accomplished with the technologies we already have, if we choose to do so. Another interesting application of the generator is for farm equipment. It would seem obviously compelling to offer farmers the choice of using oil that they can produce (or which is produced through a co-op) in machinery that they use to produce the oil producing crops (or other crops for that matter.) Frankly, I don't know how much farm equipment is already diesel powered, and if it would therefore be economically sensible to convert such equipment to diesel electric hybrid, or else to just convert it to run on SVO or to use biodiesel. The majority of farm and marine applications are diesel. I think there's a lot of scope for greater use of biodiesel, SVO and DEH (diesel electric hybrid) on farms, in mobile equipment and in generators, etc. We just did some work with the people
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Hello Bruce Keith- Thanks for your comments and the very helpful links. You're welcome. I would very much like to carry on this discussion on the agricultural aspects of oil production after I have had a chance to study the links and other information in more detail. Whenever. Always a welcome discussion that doesn't get enough attention, IMO. People are happy enough to pin on the word sustainable every time they say biofuels, and yet there's this lack of focus on how you grow the stuff. Sustainable biofuels cannot be a product of an unsustainable agriculture system, which is what we have now, in the main, and that's not for want of thoroughly viable, proven and practised alternatives that are truly sustainable. Best Keith Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org snip Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Ed- Your insights into these issues is helpful to me, and I'm sure, to others. (I am aware of some of your work in this area, as some months ago your partner Craig made me aware of your Master's thesis and I actually read it!) I would love to top Alex's 300,000 km benchmark, but it will take some time at the rate that I drive. Like him, I am not using any WVO, as I want to take a very conservative approach to this, and that may help to extend the life of my engine. However, there is another reason that I don't use WVO (and this may be worthy of another discussion thread.) In my work, I am attempting to develop and espouse a model of worldwide personal transportation sustainability, and also practice what I preach. The limited volume of WVO simply does not lend itself to such a model. I have serious doubts as to whether even Canola, sunflower, camelina sativa or any other annual row crop can be justified in such a worldwide model, as these would compete with food crops if produced on a very large scale, they use considerable energy to produce, and require water, weeding, and pest control. When there are hardy perennial oil producing plants like Jatropha that grow for up to 50 years in otherwise unusable soil in semi arid climates with virtually no maintenance requirements, and also can serve to as a natural fence, wind break and source of medicinal compounds, it seems like that is where the focus should be (and I am in the process of importing some seeds, planning a trip to Africa, and otherwise investigating this.) I am also approaching the longevity issue from an entirely different angle. I have developed a generator powered by a Kubota diesel engine. The engine was sent to Elsbett in Germany for conversion to SVO and I am very pleased with its performance. The generator can be used for stand alone power generation, but was really developed with the idea of incorporating it into a hybrid electric vehicle. With such a system, one can get into a vehicle and drive away on battery power while using the propulsion battery pack to preheat the oil, or better still, preheat the entire engine, as considerable engine wear and emissions occur when starting a cold engine. The engine is then run at a nearly constant power level that is at or close to optimum levels for fuel economy and emissions. Needless to say, engine longevity in such an engine run in this manner could be very impressive. As experience with gasoline hybrids has proved, high fuel economy is also achieved, and a diesel hybrid could achieve really eye popping fuel economy. Combine this with fuel from perennial oil producing plants that grow on otherwise unusable land and things might really begin to look interesting. Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Ok, thanks again -yes, it's likely that Alex does use only new oil, I believe that is what is recommended for that system, and it would be affordable in Germany especially for him to do so, and they do have it in bulk, for sale, at their location (and SVO is for sale at quite a few other bulk locations and pumps in Germany) ...it's not taxed as fuel, considered to be the same benefits, more or less as biodiesel, whereas petrodiesel is heavily taxed, so of the three new oil (SVO) is the cheapest (and maybe overall, also the least subsidized?!) In Canada and the USA, of course, new oil is still more money than diesel fuel, but actually the gap is closing, so perhaps it's possible for more people to start looking at greater use of new, cold pressed oils (not soy) here, or perhaps at least looking at a blend of new oil (Costco Canola, or Sunflower) and good WVO, as a cost-effective and technically better option than just using WVO. If it's affordable, do it, I would have to say, and especially if your best local option for WVO, after really checking around, is still not so good. Blending with new oil will thin the WVO, and the cold pressed is nice - also the new food grade oil (not cold pressed) maybe has a few advantages, as well. It has after all been degummed, bleached, deodorized, winterized - the Wonder Bread of cooking oils...Not so tasty, but good for a fryer and pretty good stuff for blending with WVO, IMHO, for reduced viscosity, FFA compensation/correction to closer to neutral pH, etc. New cold pressed high oleic sunflower and WVO, 50/50, would be good. Also it would be good to see more happening with Camelina Sativa (false flax, pleasure-of-gold), since it can be grown in the same field at the same time as other crops (peas for example) eliminating the use
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
vehicles developed in the US under the abandoned PNGV program all achieved 80mpg and they were all diesel-electric hybrids. There are some details here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_future.html Do diesels have a future? Combine this with fuel from perennial oil producing plants that grow on otherwise unusable land and things might really begin to look interesting. Indeed things would! Best wishes Keith Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Ok, thanks again -yes, it's likely that Alex does use only new oil, I believe that is what is recommended for that system, and it would be affordable in Germany especially for him to do so, and they do have it in bulk, for sale, at their location (and SVO is for sale at quite a few other bulk locations and pumps in Germany) ...it's not taxed as fuel, considered to be the same benefits, more or less as biodiesel, whereas petrodiesel is heavily taxed, so of the three new oil (SVO) is the cheapest (and maybe overall, also the least subsidized?!) In Canada and the USA, of course, new oil is still more money than diesel fuel, but actually the gap is closing, so perhaps it's possible for more people to start looking at greater use of new, cold pressed oils (not soy) here, or perhaps at least looking at a blend of new oil (Costco Canola, or Sunflower) and good WVO, as a cost-effective and technically better option than just using WVO. If it's affordable, do it, I would have to say, and especially if your best local option for WVO, after really checking around, is still not so good. Blending with new oil will thin the WVO, and the cold pressed is nice - also the new food grade oil (not cold pressed) maybe has a few advantages, as well. It has after all been degummed, bleached, deodorized, winterized - the Wonder Bread of cooking oils...Not so tasty, but good for a fryer and pretty good stuff for blending with WVO, IMHO, for reduced viscosity, FFA compensation/correction to closer to neutral pH, etc. New cold pressed high oleic sunflower and WVO, 50/50, would be good. Also it would be good to see more happening with Camelina Sativa (false flax, pleasure-of-gold), since it can be grown in the same field at the same time as other crops (peas for example) eliminating the use of herbicide via it's shading/weed suppression between rows, and you can get the same yield of peas as always, produce both oil energy crop and field crop, and get a light oil suitable for blending and helpful in cold weather. And BTW, the level of sophistication and engineering that you mentioned is proportionate to the type of conversion: - extended time glow plugs would be single tank, yes. Not needed for two-tank. - injector modifications and rechipping or other modification of the fuel injection computer would be needed in some instances, not in others. What *is* needed for all conversions, we feel, and what we provide with our kits, is a very large filter area, for long filter element life, and cost effectively done, *even when* using WVO that has not been pre-filtered Also, for the WVO, a water separator is a very good idea, of course (integrated into the onboard fuel processor is even better, since it's then compact and easily installed - that's what we provide) - a robust, solid state electric heater with enough output to effectively heat the oil to ~ 70C; - a coolant-heated SVO filter; - larger fuel line for the SVO (we now use 1/2 insulhose on all kits, to provide unrestricted flow in all cases), OPTIONALLY, , an extra inline electric heater, a tank heater (electric pad, 12V or 120V, or coolant operated, like our Hotstk); - full-heated-path SVO line, and so on. The requirements for the optional items vary with the application. How well single tank systems will work depends on the level of conversion done, the options used, the oil used, the climate, and the engine type. We are doing some single tank systems, just looking into doing single tank TDi, especially in California and other places where the climate and the availability of good liquid WVO or flush oil from the large food oil processors will support that application. The warm climate will help you next winter, Bruce, but I think it's going to be important to realize the need for oil that will stay liquid and combust easily with that system. It's not the same at all, trying to start an engine on a nice light new oil, versus some partly hydrogenated WVO...the degree of degradation will be even more important to be aware of. keep us all posted, and let us know when you've topped Alex's numbers! cheers, Edward Beggs http
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank? Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me that they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after 300,000 km (186,000 mi.) with the following results: -No detectible cylinder wear -No injector coking -Overall excellent condition I think that this speaks to the validity of the Elsbett system: Electric preheater, fuel-coolant heat exchanger, modification of injectors, upgrading of glow plugs, and modification of engine computer control settings. If an engine/injector pump doesn't lend itself to viable conversion, then they don't attempt to convert it. If they do, then they engineer and test the system to verify proper operation. So far, I am impressed by my Elsbett Jetta TDI conversion, but it is quite recent and I haven't gone through the winter yet. Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Tom: First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that biodiesel has had, at least not yet. The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it seems, after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along the lines of: 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens. 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures. 3. Write the report: does not work very well or for very long. I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have read there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way things are done now which are thought to improve the results. Notably: - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil, to reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, injection pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest change, which seems to improve results. - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut, high oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results. - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that did not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have today, nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They were of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will give better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have been quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines. - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier starting, operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until it was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more combustible fuel, before shutdown. - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of plant oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating, as was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of the ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement direct injection engine yielded very good results) Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the study is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper context, I'd ask this: - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just that these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO conversions and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles have not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to any conclusion about the effectiveness of the use of, in particular, preheating and two-tank systems, for DI and IDI engines? If there was a high incidence of failures, were the causes examined? What were the failures modes? What would they be attributed to? If examined, were solutions sought? RE: my list - I don't *have* a list - that's the point - we need one at this point in time. And, BTW, dozens of examples would be a decent start, but not enough to really show anything. It'd be a start, though, if we did have a good list of at least that, a few dozen examples of SVO high-milers. That's what
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Ed- It is a single tank system. I believe that he uses only rapeseed oil, and no WVO. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank? Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me that they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after 300,000 km (186,000 mi.) with the following results: -No detectible cylinder wear -No injector coking -Overall excellent condition I think that this speaks to the validity of the Elsbett system: Electric preheater, fuel-coolant heat exchanger, modification of injectors, upgrading of glow plugs, and modification of engine computer control settings. If an engine/injector pump doesn't lend itself to viable conversion, then they don't attempt to convert it. If they do, then they engineer and test the system to verify proper operation. So far, I am impressed by my Elsbett Jetta TDI conversion, but it is quite recent and I haven't gone through the winter yet. Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Tom: First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that biodiesel has had, at least not yet. The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it seems, after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along the lines of: 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens. 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures. 3. Write the report: does not work very well or for very long. I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have read there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way things are done now which are thought to improve the results. Notably: - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil, to reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, injection pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest change, which seems to improve results. - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut, high oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results. - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that did not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have today, nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They were of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will give better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have been quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines. - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier starting, operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until it was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more combustible fuel, before shutdown. - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of plant oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating, as was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of the ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement direct injection engine yielded very good results) Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the study is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper context, I'd ask this: - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just that these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO conversions and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles have not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to any conclusion about the effectiveness of the use
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Ok, thanks again -yes, it's likely that Alex does use only new oil, I believe that is what is recommended for that system, and it would be affordable in Germany especially for him to do so, and they do have it in bulk, for sale, at their location (and SVO is for sale at quite a few other bulk locations and pumps in Germany) ...it's not taxed as fuel, considered to be the same benefits, more or less as biodiesel, whereas petrodiesel is heavily taxed, so of the three new oil (SVO) is the cheapest (and maybe overall, also the least subsidized?!) In Canada and the USA, of course, new oil is still more money than diesel fuel, but actually the gap is closing, so perhaps it's possible for more people to start looking at greater use of new, cold pressed oils (not soy) here, or perhaps at least looking at a blend of new oil (Costco Canola, or Sunflower) and good WVO, as a cost-effective and technically better option than just using WVO. If it's affordable, do it, I would have to say, and especially if your best local option for WVO, after really checking around, is still not so good. Blending with new oil will thin the WVO, and the cold pressed is nice - also the new food grade oil (not cold pressed) maybe has a few advantages, as well. It has after all been degummed, bleached, deodorized, winterized - the Wonder Bread of cooking oils...Not so tasty, but good for a fryer and pretty good stuff for blending with WVO, IMHO, for reduced viscosity, FFA compensation/correction to closer to neutral pH, etc. New cold pressed high oleic sunflower and WVO, 50/50, would be good. Also it would be good to see more happening with Camelina Sativa (false flax, pleasure-of-gold), since it can be grown in the same field at the same time as other crops (peas for example) eliminating the use of herbicide via it's shading/weed suppression between rows, and you can get the same yield of peas as always, produce both oil energy crop and field crop, and get a light oil suitable for blending and helpful in cold weather. And BTW, the level of sophistication and engineering that you mentioned is proportionate to the type of conversion: - extended time glow plugs would be single tank, yes. Not needed for two-tank. - injector modifications and rechipping or other modification of the fuel injection computer would be needed in some instances, not in others. What *is* needed for all conversions, we feel, and what we provide with our kits, is a very large filter area, for long filter element life, and cost effectively done, *even when* using WVO that has not been pre-filtered Also, for the WVO, a water separator is a very good idea, of course (integrated into the onboard fuel processor is even better, since it's then compact and easily installed - that's what we provide) - a robust, solid state electric heater with enough output to effectively heat the oil to ~ 70C; - a coolant-heated SVO filter; - larger fuel line for the SVO (we now use 1/2 insulhose on all kits, to provide unrestricted flow in all cases), OPTIONALLY, , an extra inline electric heater, a tank heater (electric pad, 12V or 120V, or coolant operated, like our Hotstk); - full-heated-path SVO line, and so on. The requirements for the optional items vary with the application. How well single tank systems will work depends on the level of conversion done, the options used, the oil used, the climate, and the engine type. We are doing some single tank systems, just looking into doing single tank TDi, especially in California and other places where the climate and the availability of good liquid WVO or flush oil from the large food oil processors will support that application. The warm climate will help you next winter, Bruce, but I think it's going to be important to realize the need for oil that will stay liquid and combust easily with that system. It's not the same at all, trying to start an engine on a nice light new oil, versus some partly hydrogenated WVO...the degree of degradation will be even more important to be aware of. keep us all posted, and let us know when you've topped Alex's numbers! cheers, Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 09:51 AM, Bruce Colley wrote: Ed- It is a single tank system. I believe that he uses only rapeseed oil, and no WVO. Bruce Colley, Sustainable Energy Project www.sustainableenergyproject.org - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:47 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank? Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me that they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Ed- I think I should step gingerly here, I know you promote WVO conversion systems. However, I refer to Shaine Tyson, late of the National Renewable Energy Laboratory who gave a talk in Connecticut last year, stating that in all of the national research, only one truck was found that had lasted 150,000 miles on SVO. How does this square with your list? Are you starting out with dozens of examples, or is it a short list? Something funny happen over 100,000 and under 150,000, or is this technology particularly hard on direct injection engines? We want to know the real value of this technology. Are the rumors about the horrors of TDI conversions true? Why, what goes wrong? Tom Leue In a message dated 5/11/04 2:10:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi all, I often get asked how many engines, specifically modern direct injection engines, I know of, that have gone more than the magic number (for some reason) of 100,000 miles (yes, miles, not kilometers, please...so, let's say over 160,000 km) I know I could spend hours scouring the databases, such as they exist, translating from German sites, etc. etc...but if anyone needs a good research project for academic work, this is one!! Or, if you just want to send me notice of examples of such that you are aware of, please do! Please exclude old Mercedes.I know there are lots of those that have gone that far...I am looking for TDI's, modern trucks, equivalent hours on gensets or tractors (let's see...1600 hours at 100 km/hok, let's say over 1600 hours),Ê etc. I'll compile these as they come in, unless someone out there can set up a self-admin database for us, which would be a heck of a lot easier, and more accessible for all The SVO 100,000 Mile Club Database.anyone up for doing that? We can host it on our server space if need be, I think. Spread the word? Help get it going? Thank you! Edward Beggs - Homestead Inc. www.yellowbiodiesel.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
Tom: First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that biodiesel has had, at least not yet. The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it seems, after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along the lines of: 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens. 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures. 3. Write the report: does not work very well or for very long. I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have read there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way things are done now which are thought to improve the results. Notably: - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil, to reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, injection pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest change, which seems to improve results. - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut, high oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results. - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that did not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have today, nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They were of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will give better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have been quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines. - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier starting, operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until it was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more combustible fuel, before shutdown. - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of plant oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating, as was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of the ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement direct injection engine yielded very good results) Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the study is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper context, I'd ask this: - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just that these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO conversions and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles have not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to any conclusion about the effectiveness of the use of, in particular, preheating and two-tank systems, for DI and IDI engines? If there was a high incidence of failures, were the causes examined? What were the failures modes? What would they be attributed to? If examined, were solutions sought? RE: my list - I don't *have* a list - that's the point - we need one at this point in time. And, BTW, dozens of examples would be a decent start, but not enough to really show anything. It'd be a start, though, if we did have a good list of at least that, a few dozen examples of SVO high-milers. That's what I was looking for help in compiling. It's mentioned now and then, and we see a few attempts, but I have not yet seen a serious effort at compiling a list of documented high-mileage successes, in the way that positive results were compiled for biodiesel, for example, while that was under development. It'd be nice to see it get a little more attention, especially in English, and especially in North America, I think. RE: something funny at 100,000-150,000 miles...well, no, I don't think there is any magic number: we have all seen the reports and horror stories about engines being ruined by use of plant oils in short order - so many hours, so many miles - again, mostly of the sort and from the era and conditions mentioned above ...but then we seem now to also be hearing more and more of better long term results than predicted - so far, too much anecdotally. That needs to be examined in more detail. If there are getting to be a good number of successes in teh longer term, how are they being accomplished? What are the best practices? Of course, I have my own ideas on that, as do many others, and some have been incorporated into kits, some would be related to engine type, conditions of use, type of fuel oil used, type of lubricating oil used, and so on. Those need to be examined again - if something seems to be working (i.e. there is progress being made),
RE: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO?
I would highly reccomend posting your request to the TDI Club (www.tdiclub.com) They have a good biodiesel forum where, I am sure you will find some folks w/ high miles on SVO. -Original Message- From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 1:46 PM To: Biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? Hi all, I often get asked how many engines, specifically modern direct injection engines, I know of, that have gone more than the magic number (for some reason) of 100,000 miles (yes, miles, not kilometers, please...so, let's say over 160,000 km) I know I could spend hours scouring the databases, such as they exist, translating from German sites, etc. etc...but if anyone needs a good research project for academic work, this is one!! Or, if you just want to send me notice of examples of such that you are aware of, please do! Please exclude old Mercedes.I know there are lots of those that have gone that far...I am looking for TDI's, modern trucks, equivalent hours on gensets or tractors (let's see...1600 hours at 100 km/hok, let's say over 1600 hours), etc. I'll compile these as they come in, unless someone out there can set up a self-admin database for us, which would be a heck of a lot easier, and more accessible for all The SVO 100,000 Mile Club Database.anyone up for doing that? We can host it on our server space if need be, I think. Spread the word? Help get it going? Thank you! Edward Beggs Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
