Thanks, Bruce. Was that single tank or two-tank? Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca
On Wednesday, May 12, 2004, at 11:15 PM, Bruce Colley wrote: > Alexander Noack, senior engineer at Elsbett, recently told me that > they disassembled his Jetta TDI engine after 300,000 km (186,000 mi.) > with the following results: > -No detectible cylinder wear > -No injector coking > -Overall excellent condition > I think that this speaks to the validity of the Elsbett > system: Electric preheater, fuel-coolant heat exchanger, modification > of injectors, upgrading of glow plugs, and modification of engine > computer control settings. If an engine/injector pump doesn't lend > itself to viable conversion, then they don't attempt to convert it. > If they do, then they engineer and test the system to verify proper > operation. So far, I am impressed by my Elsbett Jetta TDI conversion, > but it is quite recent and I haven't gone through the winter yet. > Bruce Colley Sustainable Energy Project > www.sustainableenergyproject.org > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 6:25 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] 100,000 miles on SVO? > > > Tom: > > First, I will say that we have always stated that WVO (Waste > Vegetable > Oil) or new plant oil conversion systems are to be considered > experimental and do not have millions of miles of testing that > biodiesel has had, at least not yet. > > The interest and the funding shifted to biodiesel early on, it > seems, > after the tests in the early 80's, which went more or less along the > lines of: > > 1.Fill tank of then-current technology direct injection engine with > sunflower or soy oil (most often, it seems) and see what happens. > > 2. Wait for a high incidence of failures. > > 3. Write the report: "does not work very well or for very long". > > I have no doubt that the researchers were sincere and reported > accurately, but at least in the studies from that era that I have > read > there were some common themes which are not reflective of the way > things are done now which are thought to improve the results. > > Notably: > > - there never seems to be mention of preheating the vegetable oil, to > reduce viscosity and thus make it easier on the lift pump, injection > pump, and also improve atomisaiton. That's the single biggest change, > which seems to improve results. > > - the oils chosen were often less than ideal. According to the > information I have, oils such as Canola/rapeseed/mustard, coconut, > high > oleic sunflower (recent) might have yielded better results. > > - the engines were often older type direct injection engines that did > not have the sort of (with variations, of course) two-stage (pilot > injection) high pressure, computer controlled systems we have today, > nor the sort of combustion chamber designs that exist today. They > were > of course also not indirect injection engines (which many say will > give > better results on plant oils than direct injection). There have been > quite successes in the use of indirect injection engines. > > - there was no mention made of using two tanks, for easier starting, > operation of the engine on lighter fuel (diesel or biodiesel) until > it > was hot, and no purge cycle, again on the lighter and more > combustible > fuel, before shutdown. > > - also there is no mention of use of techniques such as blends of > plant > oils with solvents and cosolvents, in combination with preheating, as > was done in some of the more recent, and very successful, trials of > the > ACREVO study, which is on our web site (blending 9% ethanol into > rapeseed oil, preheating to 80C, and use in a small displacement > direct > injection engine yielded very good results) > > Regarding Shaine Tyson's comments, I am not sure how recent the study > is that is mentioned, but if recent, then perhaps to put in proper > context, I'd ask this: > > - were there a lot of premature failures documented, or is it just > that > these are mostly relatively recent conversions (most SVO conversions > and kits having been done only since 2000 or so) and so the miles > have > not been accumulated yet, and there is insufficient data to come to > any > conclusion about the effectiveness of the use of, in particular, > preheating and two-tank systems, for DI and IDI engines? If there > was a > high incidence of failures, were the causes examined? What were the > failures modes? What would they be attributed to? If examined, were > solutions sought? > > RE: "my list" - I don't *have* a list - that's the point - we need > one > at this point in time. And, BTW, dozens of examples would be a decent > start, but not enough to really show anything. It'd be a start, > though, > if we did have a good list of at least that, a few dozen examples of > SVO high-milers. That's what I was looking for help in compiling. > It's > mentioned now and then, and we see a few attempts, but I have not yet > seen a serious effort at compiling a list of documented high-mileage > successes, in the way that positive results were compiled for > biodiesel, for example, while that was under development. It'd be > nice > to see it get a little more attention, especially in English, and > especially in North America, I think. > > RE: "something funny" at 100,000-150,000 miles...well, no, I don't > think there is any magic number: we have all seen the reports and > horror stories about engines being ruined by use of plant oils in > short > order - so many hours, so many miles - again, mostly of the sort and > from the era and conditions mentioned above > > ...but then we seem now to also be hearing more and more of better > long > term results than predicted - so far, too much anecdotally. > > That needs to be examined in more detail. If there are getting to > be a > good number of successes in teh longer term, how are they being > accomplished? What are the best practices? Of course, I have my own > ideas on that, as do many others, and some have been incorporated > into > kits, some would be related to engine type, conditions of use, type > of > fuel oil used, type of lubricating oil used, and so on. > > Those need to be examined again - if something seems to be working > (i.e. there is progress being made), then find out what it is. If > there > are still, after doing those things, problem areas, identify them, > see > what can be done about them, or might be, or identify the knowledge > gaps. > > You know, SVO has been written into the European Union rules as an > acceptable alternative fuel, alongside many others, including > biodiesel. > > An original Elsbett engine in a Mercedes has recently, it is > reported, > gone over one million (!!) kilometers on vegetable oil. That's was a > direct injection engine, and it is also said that much of the > technology used in that engine's injector and combustion chamber > design > found its way into the TDI many years later! > > RE: the rumours of "horrors of TDI" conversion....I am not sure what > you refer to here, I have not heard much of this. I do know that the > TDI runs cool, does not generate a lot of waste heat, and so if run > under light loads on poorly heated oil, that could be a problem. I > have > been told they have a tendency to "coke up", even on diesel fuel - at > least that's what my VW-dealer-mechanic friend told me, and I suspect > that would be worse if they are run under light loads or in the city > a > lot. So, the preheating, electric preheating, and two tank (on diesel > or biodiesel until the engine gets hotter), would help in that, I > would > think. > > Regards, > > Edward Beggs > > > > > > > > > > On Tuesday, May 11, 2004, at 04:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> Ed- >> >> I think I should step gingerly here, I know you promote WVO conversion >> systems. However, I refer to Shaine Tyson, late of the National >> Renewable Energy >> Laboratory who gave a talk in Connecticut last year, stating that in >> all of the >> national research, only one truck was found that had lasted 150,000 >> miles on >> SVO. How does this square with your list? Are you starting out with >> dozens of >> examples, or is it a short list? Something funny happen over 100,000 >> and under >> 150,000, or is this technology particularly hard on direct injection >> engines? >> We want to know the real value of this technology. Are the rumors >> about the >> horrors of TDI conversions true? Why, what goes wrong? >> >> Tom Leue >> >> In a message dated 5/11/04 2:10:49 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >> >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I often get asked how many engines, specifically modern direct >>> injection engines, I know of, that have gone more than the magic >>> number >>> (for some reason) of 100,000 miles (yes, miles, not kilometers, >>> please...so, let's say over 160,000 km) >>> >>> I know I could spend hours scouring the databases, such as they >>> exist, >>> translating from German sites, etc. etc...but if anyone needs a good >>> research project for academic work, this is one!! >>> >>> Or, if you just want to send me notice of examples of such that you >>> are >>> aware of, please do! >>> >>> Please exclude old Mercedes.....I know there are lots of those that >>> have gone that far...I am looking for TDI's, modern trucks, >>> equivalent >>> hours on gensets or tractors (let's see...1600 hours at 100 >>> km/h....ok, >>> let's say over 1600 hours), etc. >>> >>> I'll compile these as they come in, unless someone out there can set >>> up >>> a self-admin database for us, which would be a heck of a lot easier, >>> and more accessible for all.... >>> >>> The SVO 100,000 Mile Club Database.....anyone up for doing that? >>> >>> We can host it on our server space if need be, I think. >>> >>> Spread the word? Help get it going? >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> Edward Beggs >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----------------------------- >> Homestead Inc. >> www.yellowbiodiesel.com >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor >> ---------------------~--> >> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 >> http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ~-> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Biofuels list archives: >> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ >> >> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Yahoo! 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