Re: [renewable-energy] Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
I was watching a nature show which was profiling one of the busier bat-dwellings in the world. The narrator claimed that one could not descend into the cave without special apparatus, or one could die, and pointed to discolorations on the out-back rock where the NH3 had escaped the cave. So, I guess one could harvest NH3 at the point of some animal dwellings. I don't know what negative consequences there might be to this, which under the precautionary principle one should consider. For all I know, for example, the bats need the NH3 in their dwelling to balance the atmosphere in some way, or the atmosphere uses NH3 in its cycle in some way that we don't presently appreciate. Not to say I think we should hold off too long on an experiment, or that these objections have likely validity, just to round out the picture with some PP (no pun) considerations. MM On Tue, 24 Jun 2003 11:50:56 EDT, you wrote: >Well, Aysegul, > >This is where all new solutions begin, with a problem. If there is a will, >then a suitable reversable adsorbent can be found. And, what a wonderful >combination, to solve a pollution problem and get a new energy source (or >fertilizer) at the same time. I hope someone is listening that can put this >idea into >practice. > >Ernie Rogers > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > >> I think there is no known practical way of collecting NH3 in the air to use >> it as energy source. >> Aysegl >> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
yes that`s the one. i read something in old mother earth news, and then out came thunderdome -Original Message- From: Christopher Tan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 9:23 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >hi Greg, > >i think you meant methane. > >Chistopher > >=>-Original Message- >=>From: greg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >=>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:46 AM >=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >=> >=> >=>what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as >=>with propane. greg >=>-Original Message- >=>From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >=>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >=>Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM >=>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >=> >=> >=>>How does one use NH3 as energy source ? >=>>I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution >=>coming >=>>out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. >=>>If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, >=>it would be >=>>great. >=>> >=>>Pieter Koole >=>> >=>>- Original Message - >=>>From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >=>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >=>>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; >=>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; >=>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >=>>Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM >=>>Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >=>> >=>> >=>>> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It >=>>> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is >=>>> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater >=>>> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a >=>>> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? >=>>> >=>>> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm >=>>> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm >=>>> >=>>> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. >=>>> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and >=>>> cons a little. >=>>> >=>>> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? >=>>> >=>>> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in >=>>> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my >=>>> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening >=>>> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such >=>>> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in >=>>> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join >=>>> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then >=>>> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one >=>>> that I just maintain for myself it seems. >=>>> >=>>> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that >=>>> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for >=>>> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their >=>>> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully >=>>> aware. >=>>> >=>>> MM >=>>> >=>>> >=>>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: >=>>> >=>>> >You're welcome!! >=>>> > >=>>> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my >=>favorites, >=>>> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but >=>>notice that >=>>> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and >=>>> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this >=>substance. >=>>It is >=>>> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without >=>any reported >=>>problems. >=>>> > >=>>> >Ernie Rogers >=>>> > >=>>> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. >=>>> >> >=>>> > >=>>> > >=>>> > >=>>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >=>>> > >=>>> > >
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
-Original Message- From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, June 22, 2003 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >Hoi Greg, >That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or buy >it, or is it industrial equipment ? > >Met vriendelijke groeten, >Pieter Koole >Netherlands >- Original Message - >From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:21 AM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > >> >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Robert Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: >> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26 >> Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >> >> >> > Somehow, we must get the messages in better order. >> > >> > Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this >discussion >> was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen. >> > >> > While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not >> want to be around it. It can kill. >> > >> > Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees "F" and will lay in a liquid >> form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it >> will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees "F", >the >> pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig. >> > >> > Bob >> > >> >> Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob. Some >how, >> Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it is >> not. Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol ( >> CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead. You can get Methane form the same >> source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but, that >is >> completely different. >> >> As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this >> list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a >> Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be >> cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a >> usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well. >> >> Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the >> air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in >turn >> ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there >> reformed into Methanol which could power your car. >> >> Greg H. >> >> > - Original Message ----- >> > From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > To: >> > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM >> > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >> > >> > >> > > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same >as >> > > with propane. greg >> > > -Original Message- >> > > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >> > > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM >> > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >> > > >> > > >> > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? >> > > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution >> > > coming >> > > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or >> chickens. >> > > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it >> would >> > be >> > > >great. >> > > > >> > > >Pieter Koole >> >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Biofuels list archives: >> http://archive.nnytech.net/ >> >> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Hi, Interestingly enough on the Highlands of Yunnan Province of China, human and animal waste are dumped together to produce biogas intentionally. This gas is then piped into kitchen stove for preparing the three mails. This is the substitute to having to chop off branches and trees for fire wood, a very traditional method which is more akin to the tribal instinct. The next stage is to find a storage alternative rather than direct piping of the gas which can be a mis-match; high pressure time when more methane gas is generated and the household is not using it and vice versa. How do you extract the methane gas and store the compressed air into container in a rural environment in a cost effective manner? Regards..EONG -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 June 2003 01:04 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this >list? ), Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). > which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a >Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be >cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a >usable form for farming, ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's "rich" in N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily either one or the other. >and BioGas would be available for use as well. > >Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the >air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn >( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there >reformed into Methanol which could power your car. And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which more later. Best Keith >Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Hoi Greg, That sounds interesting. What is a Methane digester ? Can I build it or buy it, or is it industrial equipment ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Robert Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26 > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > Somehow, we must get the messages in better order. > > > > Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this discussion > was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen. > > > > While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not > want to be around it. It can kill. > > > > Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees "F" and will lay in a liquid > form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it > will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees "F", the > pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig. > > > > Bob > > > > Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob. Some how, > Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it is > not. Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol ( > CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead. You can get Methane form the same > source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but, that is > completely different. > > As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this > list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a > Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be > cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a > usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well. > > Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the > air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn > ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there > reformed into Methanol which could power your car. > > Greg H. > > > - Original Message - > > From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > > > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > > > with propane. greg > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > > > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > > > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > > > coming > > > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or > chickens. > > > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it > would > > be > > > >great. > > > > > > > >Pieter Koole > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel and BioGas
- Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 11:04 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's "rich" in > N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact > it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life > (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. > " VOC's ", I know I should know it, but, for the life of me I can't remember right now. Volatile Organic Compounds? I always thought that the sludge should be composted before using. Would the composting take care of them? I remember reading a book about Methane Digesters, and the author stated that after a certain amount of spillage (a few months after he started ), were he unloaded the sludge ( into a tanker for spreading on his fields ) he had a big flush of mushrooms, that never seamed to go away. If this is true could not the micorrhizal fungi also benefit with limited application? > Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily > either one or the other. > True. > And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current > thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which > more later. > I have missed some of that, for some reason, Yahoo ( funny, how I always want to call it something else when I'm mad at them ), is not sending me all of the messages from this list in particular, but, from a few others as well. It may be that I notice it more on this list, due to it's higher activity.
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
>As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this >list? ), Excrement happens Greg, in more ways than one, especially here where biogas is very much on-topic (and a very welcome topic too). > which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a >Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be >cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a >usable form for farming, ... but not until the sludge has been composted. That it's "rich" in N, P and K doesn't necessarily make it a good fertilizer, and in fact it's fraught with VOCs and other stuff that kills the soil life (including the micorrhizal fungi) and destroys the soilfood web. Biogas and composting can go very well together, not necessarily either one or the other. >and BioGas would be available for use as well. > >Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the >air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn >( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there >reformed into Methanol which could power your car. And a bit more than that. Why don't you join in the other current thread on biogas? It's of much interest to all biofuellers - re which more later. Best Keith >Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
hi Greg, i think you meant methane. Chistopher =>-Original Message- =>From: greg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] =>Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 4:46 AM =>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel => => =>what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as =>with propane. greg =>-Original Message- =>From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com =>Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM =>Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel => => =>>How does one use NH3 as energy source ? =>>I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution =>coming =>>out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. =>>If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, =>it would be =>>great. =>> =>>Pieter Koole =>> =>>- Original Message - =>>From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =>>Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; =>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; =>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =>>Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM =>>Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel =>> =>> =>>> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It =>>> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is =>>> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater =>>> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a =>>> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? =>>> =>>> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm =>>> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm =>>> =>>> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. =>>> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and =>>> cons a little. =>>> =>>> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? =>>> =>>> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in =>>> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my =>>> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening =>>> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such =>>> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in =>>> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join =>>> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then =>>> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one =>>> that I just maintain for myself it seems. =>>> =>>> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that =>>> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for =>>> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their =>>> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully =>>> aware. =>>> =>>> MM =>>> =>>> =>>> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: =>>> =>>> >You're welcome!! =>>> > =>>> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my =>favorites, =>>> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but =>>notice that =>>> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and =>>> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this =>substance. =>>It is =>>> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without =>any reported =>>problems. =>>> > =>>> >Ernie Rogers =>>> > =>>> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. =>>> >> =>>> > =>>> > =>>> > =>>> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] =>>> > =>>> > =>>> > =>>> >== =>>> >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. =>>> >-- =>>> >. Please feel free to send your input to: =>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] =>>> >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: =>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] =>>> >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: =>>> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] =>>> >. To view previous messages from the list, =>>> > subscribe to a daily digest o
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
> First any liquid, reguardless of what it is "WILL NOT COMPRESS" !! Actually, liquids can be compressed. But the degree is so miniscule as to be in many respects discounted entirely. You've got to ask yourself why many reactions take place better under pressure? Sure, most "pressurized" reactions take place where a gaseous phase is pressurized in the presence of liquids. This makes all the molecules - those in the gaseous and liquid phases bump around considerably more that they do at standard pressure. There are also hydraulic methods of increasing pressures in absence of gas(es) in order to achieve the same increased activity. I believe the age old accepted understanding that liquids do not compress is something akin to rounding pi to 3.00 to make it a bit more "understandable." Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
- Original Message - From: "Robert Mills" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 19:26 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > Somehow, we must get the messages in better order. > > Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this discussion was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen. > > While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not want to be around it. It can kill. > > Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees "F" and will lay in a liquid form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees "F", the pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig. > > Bob > Look at the message I was responding to ( directly below ) Bob. Some how, Greg ( not Greg H. myself ) was equating methanol as being NH3, when it is not. Perhaps Greg, was thinking Methane ( CH4 ), instead of Methanol ( CH3OH ), but typed Methanol instead. You can get Methane form the same source as the NH3, with some processing ( a Methane Digester ), but, that is completely different. As to Pieter Kools question, If the excreatment ( can we say that on this list? ), which is the source of the heavy NH3 in the air, is run through a Methane Digester, the amount of Ammonia ( NH3 ), filling the air would be cut down to almost nothing, and the Nitrogen would be recoverable in a usable form for farming, and BioGas would be available for use as well. Funny thing, You could use the Methane Digester to reduce the NH3 in the air, put the recoverable N back into the ground, make biogas, which in turn ( with the proper equipment ) can be made into syngas, and from there reformed into Methanol which could power your car. Greg H. > - Original Message - > From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > > with propane. greg > > -Original Message- > > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > > coming > > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would > be > > >great. > > > > > >Pieter Koole Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Somehow, we must get the messages in better order. Ammonia was never discussed as a fuel. It's entire use in this discussion was that of a transportation medium for the hydrogen. While ammonia will burn, there are plenty of reasons that one does not want to be around it. It can kill. Ammonia has a boiling point of -21 degrees "F" and will lay in a liquid form wherever you want to have it. As the temperature of ammonia rises, it will require pressure to hold it in the liquid form. At 100 degrees "F", the pressure required to keep it in the liquid form is 210 psig. Bob Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hai Greg, Methanol is not the same as ammonia. May be we can use ammonia the same way, but it is surely not the same. Can anybody tell me how the chemical reaction of burning NH3 is ? At what pressure can we make NH3 liquid ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > with propane. greg > -Original Message- > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > coming > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > >great. > > > >Pieter Koole > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > >> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > >> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > >> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > >> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > >> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > >> > >> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > >> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > >> > >> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > >> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > >> cons a little. > >> > >> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > >> > >> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > >> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > >> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > >> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > >> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > >> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > >> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > >> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > >> that I just maintain for myself it seems. > >> > >> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > >> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > >> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > >> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > >> aware. > >> > >> MM > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > >> > >> >You're welcome!! > >> > > >> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > >notice that > >> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. > >It is > >> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > >problems. > >> > > >> >Ernie Rogers > >> > > >> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > >> >> > >> > > &g
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Wow, lots of confusion here. First any liquid, reguardless of what it is "WILL NOT COMPRESS" !! Propane is different than ammonia in as much as ammonia contains no carbon atoms. This changes ammonia completely and it has different boiling points as well. Propane, because it does contain carbon atoms has a much larger amount of heat value in it and also has different boiling points and can be used directly in an ICE engine; ammonia cannot. How does one use ammonia as an energy source? When this discussion first started, the use of the chemical ammonia was discussed as a transportation medium, not an energy source within itself. Nitrogen basically is energy benign, (no heat here). If once removed by whatever means from the hydrogen, the hydrogen is the energy source which in the discussion was to be used in the hydrogen fuel cell. Hope this helps... Bob Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Methanol is the simplest of alcohols, with the chem. formula of CH3OH, it is also a liquid, how do you compress it? Greg H. - Original Message - From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 14:45 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > with propane. greg > -Original Message- > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > coming > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > >great. > > > >Pieter Koole > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > >> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > >> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > >> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > >> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > >> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > >> > >> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > >> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > >> > >> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > >> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > >> cons a little. > >> > >> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > >> > >> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > >> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > >> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > >> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > >> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > >> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > >> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > >> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > >> that I just maintain for myself it seems. > >> > >> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > >> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > >> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > >> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > >> aware. > >> > >> MM > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > >> > >> >You're welcome!! > >> > > >> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > >notice that > >> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. > >It is > >> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > >problems. > >> > > >> >Ernie
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Methanol is the simplest of alcohols, with the chem. formula of CH3OH, it is also a liquid, how do you compress it? Greg H. - Original Message - From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 14:45 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > with propane. greg > -Original Message- > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > coming > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > >great. > > > >Pieter Koole > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > >> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > >> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > >> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > >> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > >> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > >> > >> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > >> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > >> > >> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > >> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > >> cons a little. > >> > >> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > >> > >> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > >> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > >> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > >> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > >> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > >> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > >> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > >> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > >> that I just maintain for myself it seems. > >> > >> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > >> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > >> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > >> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > >> aware. > >> > >> MM > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > >> > >> >You're welcome!! > >> > > >> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > >notice that > >> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. > >It is > >> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > >problems. > >> > > >> >Ernie Rogers > >> > > >> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >== > >> >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. > >> >-- > >> >. Please feel free to send your input to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >. To view previous messages from the list, > >> > subscribe to a daily digest of the
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Ooops sorry about the repeat. - Original Message - From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming > out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > great. > > Pieter Koole Getting the ammonia out of air is no problem, bubble the air through water. Ammonia is very soluble in water (fountain experiment used in schools). Don't know how you would derive inergy from it, probably best converted to fertiliser and used or exported. Regards Paul Gobert Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
- Original Message - From: "Pieter Koole" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2003 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming > out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > great. > > Pieter Koole > > - Original Message - > From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM > Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > > seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > > that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > > energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > > liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > > > > http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > > http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > > > > There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > > This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > > cons a little. > > > > Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > > > > Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > > response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > > experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > > response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > > as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > > the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > > them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > > fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > > that I just maintain for myself it seems. > > > > But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > > seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > > the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > > posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > > aware. > > > > MM > > > > > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > > > > >You're welcome!! > > > > > >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > > >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > notice that > > >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > > >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. > It is > > >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > problems. > > > > > >Ernie Rogers > > > > > >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > >== > > >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. > > >-- > > >. Please feel free to send your input to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >. To view previous messages from the list, > > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list, > > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail > > > (and read it on the Web), go to > > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/renewable-energy . > > >. This e-mail discussion list is managed by > > > the American Wind Energy Association: > > > http://www.awea.org > > >-- > > > > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubs
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Hai Greg, Methanol is not the same as ammonia. May be we can use ammonia the same way, but it is surely not the same. Can anybody tell me how the chemical reaction of burning NH3 is ? At what pressure can we make NH3 liquid ? Met vriendelijke groeten, Pieter Koole Netherlands - Original Message - From: "greg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 22, 2003 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as > with propane. greg > -Original Message- > From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? > >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution > coming > >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. > >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be > >great. > > > >Pieter Koole > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM > >Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > > > > >> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > >> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > >> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > >> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > >> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > >> > >> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > >> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > >> > >> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > >> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > >> cons a little. > >> > >> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > >> > >> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > >> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > >> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > >> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > >> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > >> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > >> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > >> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > >> that I just maintain for myself it seems. > >> > >> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > >> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > >> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > >> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > >> aware. > >> > >> MM > >> > >> > >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > >> > >> >You're welcome!! > >> > > >> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > >notice that > >> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. > >It is > >> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > >problems. > >> > > >> >Ernie Rogers > >> > > >> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >== > >> >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. > >> >-- > >> >. Please feel free to send your input to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: > >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an e
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
what you have is methanol.compress it, and you can run your car. same as with propane. greg -Original Message- From: Pieter Koole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, June 21, 2003 7:07 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be >great. > >Pieter Koole > >- Original Message - >From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM >Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > > >> It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It >> seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is >> that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater >> energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a >> liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? >> >> http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm >> http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm >> >> There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. >> This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and >> cons a little. >> >> Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? >> >> Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in >> response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my >> experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening >> response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such >> as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in >> the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join >> them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then >> fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one >> that I just maintain for myself it seems. >> >> But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that >> seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for >> the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their >> posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully >> aware. >> >> MM >> >> >> On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: >> >> >You're welcome!! >> > >> >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, >> >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but >notice that >> >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and >> >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. >It is >> >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported >problems. >> > >> >Ernie Rogers >> > >> >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> > >> >== >> >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. >> >-- >> >. Please feel free to send your input to: >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >. To view previous messages from the list, >> > subscribe to a daily digest of the list, >> > or stop receiving the list by e-mail >> > (and read it on the Web), go to >> > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/renewable-energy . >> >. This e-mail discussion list is managed by >> > the American Wind Energy Association: >> > http://www.awea.org >> >-- >> > >> > >> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> > >> > >> >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Biofuels list archives: >> http://archive.nnytech.net/ >> >> Please do NOT send Unsu
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
On Sat, 21 Jun 2003 14:07:17 +0200, you wrote: >How does one use NH3 as energy source ? >I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming >out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. >If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be >great. > >Pieter Koole I am not skilled enough in Chemistry to know precisely what was being suggested, but I will cc: to the person who is keen on this fuel to see if they can respond to you. If a small part of the answer is to inquire as to how NH3 could be used in fuel cells, I also wonder about that. There are schemes for fuel cells that seem to involve materials where hydrogen is affixed to various elements, and then used, with the element either being part of an emissions, or being recycled. The Zinc-based attempts at fuel cells I think come to mind (although I'm not sure of this). So, the fact that Hydrogen is affixed to Nitrogen shouldn't be necessarily prohibitive. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
How does one use NH3 as energy source ? I ask this, because in Holland we have big problems with NH3 polution coming out of huge animal houses with hundreds of thousends of pigs or chickens. If we could filter the NH3 out of the air and use it as a fuel, it would be great. Pieter Koole - Original Message - From: "murdoch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; ; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:35 PM Subject: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel > It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It > seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is > that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater > energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a > liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > > http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm > http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > > There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. > This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and > cons a little. > > Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > > Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in > response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my > experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening > response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such > as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in > the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join > them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then > fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one > that I just maintain for myself it seems. > > But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that > seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for > the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their > posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully > aware. > > MM > > > On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > > >You're welcome!! > > > >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but notice that > >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this substance. It is > >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported problems. > > > >Ernie Rogers > > > >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > >> > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >== > >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. > >-- > >. Please feel free to send your input to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. To view previous messages from the list, > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list, > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail > > (and read it on the Web), go to > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/renewable-energy . > >. This e-mail discussion list is managed by > > the American Wind Energy Association: > > http://www.awea.org > >-- > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
Ammonia (gaseous) mixed with air in the right ratio forms an explosive mixture. But then that can be said for a lot of fuels with low vapour points. Regards Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ammonia as Fuel
It is made liquid a relatively high (although freezing) temperature and low pressure. That is exactly why it was used in fridges, to move heat you need these properties. CFC is also used because of its similar vaporization points. Ammonia is dangerous if concentrated. It will also easily burn your air vents and lungs. Be very careful in handling it. It is present in urea and if you have worked on a farm with animals you know this, especially if you worked with horses. Hakan At 12:35 PM 6/20/2003 -0700, you wrote: >It isn't clear to me at what temperature it can become liquid. It >seems to me that a big part of why I was advocating other fuels is >that, in liquid form, they can be transported and used with greater >energy density. I do think it's close to being easily made into a >liquid, but that at room temperature it's gaseous? > >http://www.c-f-c.com/specgas_products/ammonia.htm >http://www.slider.com/enc/2000/ammonia_Properties.htm > >There does seem some indication that it is toxic in some extent. >This is not to preclude your suggestion, just to examine the pros and >cons a little. > >Wasn't ammonia used as a refrigerant and then replaced with CFC's? > >Note that several people appear to be cc'ing to other groups in >response to my own cc's. When I initiate this, I do it because my >experience has been that I get a wider range of more-enlightening >response, even if there are some significant downsides to this, such >as disjointed conversations. If you wish for your posts to appear in >the other groups, I think the way yahoo works, you'd just have to join >them, otherwise the cc: is wasted. If it is not that important, then >fine. I moderate the evworld.com group and the energyproduction one >that I just maintain for myself it seems. > >But I am not stumping for membership, just going over something that >seems to now pertain to several people. I did send out invites for >the evworld.com group because it seemed a way to alert some that their >posts were not being seen on that group, in case they weren't fully >aware. > >MM > > >On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 17:11:24 EDT, you wrote: > > >You're welcome!! > > > >Now, about liquifiable fuels-- You didn't mention one of my favorites, > >ammonia, NH3. Its energy density is a little lower than methanol, but > notice that > >it contains no carbon and can be catalytically reduced to hydrogen and > >nitrogen. I am not aware of environmental problems with this > substance. It is > >currently used at very high tonnages for fertilizer without any reported > problems. > > > >Ernie Rogers > > > >> Thanks for the feedback Ernie. > >> > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >== > >THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE RENEWABLE ENERGY LIST. > >-- > >. Please feel free to send your input to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >. To view previous messages from the list, > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list, > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail > > (and read it on the Web), go to > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/renewable-energy . > >. This e-mail discussion list is managed by > > the American Wind Energy Association: > > http://www.awea.org > >-- > > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
