Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
James Slayden wrote: I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm Intermetallic hydrides represent a very safe way to store hydrogen. The difficulty with hydrides involves cost, mass and the nagging problem of break down after repeated cycles. The last time I checked, the hydride necessary to give my 2.3 liter Ranger 160 km of range would cost over $20 000--that's WITHOUT the custom heat exchange tank necessary to liberate the gas from the metal. This much hydride would weigh 320 kilos, plus the weight of the tank, plus the weight of the heat exchange medium. . . By the time all the necessary modifications have been made to store hydrogen onboard, then burn it properly in my engine, I could easily convert the truck to a battery electric and not suffer from the efficiency loss involved in electrolysis. Batteries are also considerably cheaper than hydride. Replacing a battery bank every three years or so makes the cost between burning gasoline and swapping batteries a draw, but replacing very expensive, activated hydride is a money wasting proposition! It's so much easier to carry hydrogen around attached to other molecules! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.1stbooks.com/bookview/9782 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
- Original Message - From: murdoch To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. Important too is : - The source of Hydrogen: it«s no renewable from the petroleum, but yes from the water (electrolysis). - The way to use it: no to burn it, but to produce water and energy to move vehicles. Regards. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago, http://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlhttp://mb-soft.com/public2/index.htmlI dex of Public Service Pages. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
James, I agree with you on some details, but the big picture remains and maybe you can give input on that, 1. Primary energy sources. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. 2. Lightweight pressurized tanks. At 1500 psi, the volume problem is the same approx. 15 times bigger than a gasoline tank. 3. Oil NG depletion. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. 4. If we rapidly needed a replacement fuel for the existing cars, pure hydrogen is not suitable, because of the flame speed. I have a terrible feeling that we are loosing ourselves in this hydrogen for cars question, which is best taken care of by biofuels in short term. Battery technologies for EVs are improving and beat Hydrogen in volume and at much better efficiency, if we include the fuel cell. Hydrogen have a very long way to go to come even close biodiesel hybrids. This in efficiency, but also in pollution if the primary source is considered. Solar generated hydrogen is cleaner, but then the solar/battery is much more efficient. The problem is not the possible big future development and the answers we are seeking for hydrogen. If we should avoid major crises within the next 10 years, efficient cars and alternative fuels must be delivered yesterday. Not to talk of the general energy efficiency that are needed. The current oil reserves seems to be overstated for political reasons and if it is so, the largest energy crises in human history is just around the corner. Guess which nation that will have the largest problem? If we started to produce solar panels en mass and build Nuclear Power immediately, or even drill as much as we can, the crises is still there. Hakan At 06:53 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: I think that the beauty of the Ovonic system is that it uses process heat to release the H2 from the storage tanks. The heat generated either from an H2 ICE or a FC could also help with this: http://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htmhttp://www.ovonics.com/res/2_4_solid_hydrogen/solid_hydrogen.htm My gut tells me that although pressurized lightweight tanks are fairly safe these days (see NGV lightweight vehicle tanks), there is what I call the Hindenburg perception of gaseous hydrogen storage, even though that was proven a falsity. Liquid H2 storage is too difficult to implement and maintain so that will be weeded out fairly quickly. Another plus of the metal-hydride storage is the higher energy density. That will also be a factor in what form H2 storage will occur in vehicles. James Slayden On Tue, 21 Oct 2003, Hakan Falk wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan At 01:51 PM 10/21/2003, you wrote: This article assumes onboard pressurized storage. It should at least mention the future possibility of Liquid H2 (such as BMW has been working on) or metal hydride storage) such as Ovonic seems to have implemented with a modified Prius: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com /prnews/031020/dem017_1.htmlhttp://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/ 31020/dem017_1.html As always, I'm not advocating these solutions, just mentioning them. I tend to think a chemical solution (such as carrying H2 in molecules of C2H5OH) will continue to be the solution of choice for many. On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 00:37:59 +0200, you wrote: Although I can see large advantages in hydrogen as storage in stationary power generation and military mobile applications, I see that it is going to take a long time before we see the hydrogen economy for propelling transport in general. Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles http://energy.saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy. saving.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtmlhttp://energy.sav ing.nu/hydrogen/hydrogenstorage.shtml Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles By mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Carl Johnson, BA Physics, Univ of Chicago,
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Hydrogen as a Fuel for Automobiles
MM, I have not excluded methanol or even the more interesting ethanol in fuel cells. It is energy sources and it looks like an interesting development. Then we are back to more reasonable evaluations about efficiency etc., which are bound to come up. I am fully open to the fuel cell technology, which a think is the more tangible development advances in this. I am also for stationary hydrogen use in storage technologies for power generation etc. where large and safe lower pressure storages can be used. Techniques that we are able to do and manage with security. That is exiting, maybe economical and a lot safer. It would for sure be needed. Hakan At 04:11 AM 10/22/2003, you wrote: On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 14:40:08 +0200, you wrote: MM, Formation and reformation of hydrogen/whatsoever combinations as storage techniques are obviously the way to go forward. It is however a storage process that in itself require energy and I have not yet seen any substantial discussions of the energy costs for this. The energy has to come from somewhere. We have so many times agreed that hydrogen is a storage technology, if generated from renewable sources, and now we are talking about storage technologies of the storage technology. Agreed. However, I guess I meant my way of looking at it to cause folks to sort of think twice. I mean, if we see methanol a liquid fuel worth considering for fuel cells (as I think Mercedes has experimented with for example), we see that it's not necessary to go through all that energy conversion you just make the methanol. Then you can use it in an engine. You have then arguably carried H2 on board and used it, in a way. Ok, so if the methanol is reformed and then used in a fuel cell, there might be some loss of energy, but I'm just pointing out that in a way we already get H2 on board cars, and to some extent it's just a matter of recognizing that fact. We need overall comparable figures, viability analysis and costs. We also need to know where the energy should be originating from, because this is an open question that everybody seems to do almost anything to avoid. We have a major energy supply problem ahead of us, not a major energy storage problem. Hakan Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/mk9osC/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
