Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
>Can I add an example on whether a plant takes much from the top soil. Edible >figs are constrained from growing a mass of green vegetation by restricting >the surface rooting to a 2ft by 2ft square box, 2 ft deep with an open >bottom through which the deep roots can grow. Without this the fig tree >would grow massive and not produce much fruit. Plainly it needs it's mat of >surface roots which seems to counter to your first para. I grow cherries in >large pots for the same reason. > >Ken Hi Ken, Greg Trees have two root systems, one deep-rooter set for anchoring the things and garnering minerals from the subsoil, the other a much denser, more finely rooted surface-root system, and this is the main system the tree feeds by. These are also the main mycorrhizal roots. There's much more about this here, very interesting (the whole thing is very interesting!) - full-text online at our Small Farms Library: "An Agricultural Testament" by Sir Albert Howard, Oxford University Press, 1940. Part III Health, Indisposition, and Disease in Agriculture 9. Soil Aeration The Soil Aeration Factor in Relation to Grass and Trees The Root System of Deciduous Trees The Root System of Evergreens http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library/howardAT/AT9a.html Best wishes Keith >- Original Message - >From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:53 PM >Subject: Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - >Newbie > > > > If the leaves and smaller branches are left, that is more than enough, > > because the large trees are getting most of the nutrients from the sub >soil > > ( that is not used by most plants ) not the top soil. You could then go > > back and put the ashes back if you really wanted to, if this was done, the > > result would be a total increase in top soil nutrients for most plants > > including young trees. > > > > Don't for get the experiment that showed most of the building blocks of a > > plant do not come from the soil at all. I don't remember all the details, > > but, I think that it was a British scientist in the 1800's planted a tree >in > > a large tub of soil that had been carefuly weighed, then much later, >weighed > > the tree, and the soil again to see how much of the soil the tree had used > > in growing, and the soil weighed a pound or so lighter, and the tree was > > more than 30 lbs. > > > > Greg H. > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 14:16 > > Subject: Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some >questions - > > Newbie > > > > > > > Well, doesn't something have to replenish the minerals that you took out > > > of the soil in the form of wood? > > > > > > --- > > > Martin Klingensmith > > > infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] > > > nnytech.net > > > > > > > > > > > > Robin, > > > Time is a relative thing. Compared to Radishes, Corn takes a long > > > time to grow, but we don't stop using it. Even mighty Oak trees have > > > a finite life span, and it would be wasteful to not use the resource. > > > Heating Oil from Fossil Fuels takes even longer to replenish than an > > > Oak Tree. > > > It would be irresponsible to simply leave the wood to rot on the > > > ground creating a fire hazard and breeding ground for diseases, and > > > instead use Fossil Fuels for Heating your home. > > > Once an Oak Tree is dead, whether from disease or storm damage or by > > > being cut down for whatever reason, it would be wasteful and > > > irresponsible to not utilize the wood. > > > > > > Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
>Well, doesn't something have to replenish the minerals that you took out >of the soil in the form of wood? > >--- >Martin Klingensmith >infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] >nnytech.net Hi Martin In fact the trees do that themselves. The natural scheme of things allows for a large amount of production to be removed without any extra replacement. Of course it's easy to disrupt or destroy those arrangements, it very much matters how it's done. But that's been well-known for a long time, if not always practised. Trees are deep-rooters, their roots go down into the sub-soil and beyond; the roots exude a weak carbonic acid which etches "new" mineral supplies out of the rock, which the root system then brings to the surface and into the tree. Cut the tree, remove the timber and replace nothing, but still all the leaves, small branches etc, bark hopefully, all of which contains the lion's share of the nutrients anyway, plus the root system itself, are left to decay back into the soil, mainly the topsoil, along with its mineral content. The decay process maintains the crucial supply of humus in the topsoil which maintains the soilfood web (including the vital mycorrhizal fungi). It helps to shred and chip all the remnants and spread it. There have been invesdtigations of whether returning just the ash to the forest floor can maintain the required fertility levels, with mixed success. This is important for biomass energy projects using energy plantations. The ash does contain all the minerals, but that's all it contains, no organic matter. In tropical soils especially this is not enough, it still needs organic matter maintenance as well as the ash. Also it rather depends on the particular soil type and conditions, too much ash can severely imbalance a soil, so that the required minerals are there but not in an "available" form that the plant has access to; the physical structure of the soil can also suffer badly. Best Keith >Robin, >Time is a relative thing. Compared to Radishes, Corn takes a long >time to grow, but we don't stop using it. Even mighty Oak trees have >a finite life span, and it would be wasteful to not use the resource. >Heating Oil from Fossil Fuels takes even longer to replenish than an >Oak Tree. >It would be irresponsible to simply leave the wood to rot on the >ground creating a fire hazard and breeding ground for diseases, and >instead use Fossil Fuels for Heating your home. >Once an Oak Tree is dead, whether from disease or storm damage or by >being cut down for whatever reason, it would be wasteful and >irresponsible to not utilize the wood. > >Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Can I add an example on whether a plant takes much from the top soil. Edible figs are constrained from growing a mass of green vegetation by restricting the surface rooting to a 2ft by 2ft square box, 2 ft deep with an open bottom through which the deep roots can grow. Without this the fig tree would grow massive and not produce much fruit. Plainly it needs it's mat of surface roots which seems to counter to your first para. I grow cherries in large pots for the same reason. Ken - Original Message - From: "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 11:53 PM Subject: Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > If the leaves and smaller branches are left, that is more than enough, > because the large trees are getting most of the nutrients from the sub soil > ( that is not used by most plants ) not the top soil. You could then go > back and put the ashes back if you really wanted to, if this was done, the > result would be a total increase in top soil nutrients for most plants > including young trees. > > Don't for get the experiment that showed most of the building blocks of a > plant do not come from the soil at all. I don't remember all the details, > but, I think that it was a British scientist in the 1800's planted a tree in > a large tub of soil that had been carefuly weighed, then much later, weighed > the tree, and the soil again to see how much of the soil the tree had used > in growing, and the soil weighed a pound or so lighter, and the tree was > more than 30 lbs. > > Greg H. > > - Original Message - > From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 14:16 > Subject: Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - > Newbie > > > > Well, doesn't something have to replenish the minerals that you took out > > of the soil in the form of wood? > > > > --- > > Martin Klingensmith > > infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] > > nnytech.net > > > > > > > > Robin, > > Time is a relative thing. Compared to Radishes, Corn takes a long > > time to grow, but we don't stop using it. Even mighty Oak trees have > > a finite life span, and it would be wasteful to not use the resource. > > Heating Oil from Fossil Fuels takes even longer to replenish than an > > Oak Tree. > > It would be irresponsible to simply leave the wood to rot on the > > ground creating a fire hazard and breeding ground for diseases, and > > instead use Fossil Fuels for Heating your home. > > Once an Oak Tree is dead, whether from disease or storm damage or by > > being cut down for whatever reason, it would be wasteful and > > irresponsible to not utilize the wood. > > > > Motie > > > > > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > > > Biofuels list archives: > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
If the leaves and smaller branches are left, that is more than enough, because the large trees are getting most of the nutrients from the sub soil ( that is not used by most plants ) not the top soil. You could then go back and put the ashes back if you really wanted to, if this was done, the result would be a total increase in top soil nutrients for most plants including young trees. Don't for get the experiment that showed most of the building blocks of a plant do not come from the soil at all. I don't remember all the details, but, I think that it was a British scientist in the 1800's planted a tree in a large tub of soil that had been carefuly weighed, then much later, weighed the tree, and the soil again to see how much of the soil the tree had used in growing, and the soil weighed a pound or so lighter, and the tree was more than 30 lbs. Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, February 10, 2003 14:16 Subject: Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > Well, doesn't something have to replenish the minerals that you took out > of the soil in the form of wood? > > --- > Martin Klingensmith > infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] > nnytech.net > > > > Robin, > Time is a relative thing. Compared to Radishes, Corn takes a long > time to grow, but we don't stop using it. Even mighty Oak trees have > a finite life span, and it would be wasteful to not use the resource. > Heating Oil from Fossil Fuels takes even longer to replenish than an > Oak Tree. > It would be irresponsible to simply leave the wood to rot on the > ground creating a fire hazard and breeding ground for diseases, and > instead use Fossil Fuels for Heating your home. > Once an Oak Tree is dead, whether from disease or storm damage or by > being cut down for whatever reason, it would be wasteful and > irresponsible to not utilize the wood. > > Motie > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: trees was: RE: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Well, doesn't something have to replenish the minerals that you took out of the soil in the form of wood? --- Martin Klingensmith infoarchive.net [archive.nnytech.net] nnytech.net Robin, Time is a relative thing. Compared to Radishes, Corn takes a long time to grow, but we don't stop using it. Even mighty Oak trees have a finite life span, and it would be wasteful to not use the resource. Heating Oil from Fossil Fuels takes even longer to replenish than an Oak Tree. It would be irresponsible to simply leave the wood to rot on the ground creating a fire hazard and breeding ground for diseases, and instead use Fossil Fuels for Heating your home. Once an Oak Tree is dead, whether from disease or storm damage or by being cut down for whatever reason, it would be wasteful and irresponsible to not utilize the wood. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Think about it for a minute. The only forest around here is in the mountains, and I don't know of any hardwood that grows here naturally. The hard wood is ether trucked in or comes from the landscaping trimmings. If you opt for the softwood, 80+% of the forest with in a hour drive is National Forest, or again landscaping trimmings. Granted the local forest service is trying to work out ( finally ) with the local people, a way to reduce the fuel loading by about 25% - 35% or so in the next 5 yrs. So in a few years, I may be able to get softwoods at a lower cost. Greg H. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 21:16 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in > > > your area worth messing with it? > > > > I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard > wood. > > WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but > it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling > seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your > pickup. > > > > > > > > >The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, > > That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired > people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's > faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid > $20 to split and pile it for you. > > > and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I > would > > still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw > new ). > > Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed > my mind that you may not already own one. > > > I > > was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water > faster > > and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. > > Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. > > > > Greg H. > > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Robin Parker wrote: >> > Who in their right mind is wasting oak on firewood?? That stuff takes > forever to grow! > > But oak trees do die. They make fantastic fire wood and that is all I burn. I would never cut down a live one, no need, there are plenty of dead ones to harvest. Bright Blessings, Kim Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
>Obviously we are talking about face cords and full cords...or as some >like to call them, minor cords and major cords. > >;-) Heh... You think a major diminished might fit in a pickup truck? Keith >Edward Beggs >On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 08:45 PM, Steve Spence wrote: > > > you can't put a cord of wood in a pickup truck. a cord of wood is 4 x > > 4 x 8 > > and weighs 2 tons. > > > > Steve Spence > > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > > http://www.green-trust.org > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - Original Message - > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:16 PM > > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > > > > >> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> wrote: > >>> > > You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in > your area worth messing with it? > >>> > >>> I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard > >> wood. > >> > >> WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but > >> it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling > >> seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your > >> pickup. > >>> > > >>> > >>> The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, > >> > >> That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired > >> people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's > >> faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid > >> $20 to split and pile it for you. > >> > >>> and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I > >> would > >>> still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw > >> new ). > >> > >> Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed > >> my mind that you may not already own one. > >> > >>> I > >>> was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water > >> faster > >>> and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. > >> > >> Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. > >>> > >>> Greg H. > >> > >> Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Obviously we are talking about face cords and full cords...or as some like to call them, minor cords and major cords. ;-) Edward Beggs On Sunday, February 9, 2003, at 08:45 PM, Steve Spence wrote: > you can't put a cord of wood in a pickup truck. a cord of wood is 4 x > 4 x 8 > and weighs 2 tons. > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > http://www.green-trust.org > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:16 PM > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > >> --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >>> You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in your area worth messing with it? >>> >>> I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard >> wood. >> >> WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but >> it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling >> seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your >> pickup. >>> >>> >>> The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, >> >> That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired >> people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's >> faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid >> $20 to split and pile it for you. >> >>> and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I >> would >>> still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw >> new ). >> >> Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed >> my mind that you may not already own one. >> >>> I >>> was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water >> faster >>> and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. >> >> Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. >>> >>> Greg H. >> >> Motie >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Biofuels list archives: >> http://archive.nnytech.net/ >> >> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
> > WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but > it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling > seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your > pickup. > > Who in their right mind is wasting oak on firewood?? That stuff takes forever to grow! Robin Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
you can't put a cord of wood in a pickup truck. a cord of wood is 4 x 4 x 8 and weighs 2 tons. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 11:16 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in > > > your area worth messing with it? > > > > I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard > wood. > > WOW! I'm in culture shock. Here it's $40 cord delivered for Oak, but > it's likely to be a minimum of 10 cords. Several People are selling > seasoned mixed Hardwoods for $35 for all you care to load into your > pickup. > > > > > > > > >The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, > > That is another thing that never crossed my mind. A few retired > people own Log Splitters, but mostly just for recreational use. It's > faster and better exersize to split it by hand. Or pay a neighbor kid > $20 to split and pile it for you. > > > and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I > would > > still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw > new ). > > Better check the prices on Chainsaws first. The thought never crossed > my mind that you may not already own one. > > > I > > was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water > faster > > and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. > > Sorry. :-( It's strictly an Industrial process. > > > > Greg H. > > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
I had thought about Oak, but they grow to slowly for were I was needing it, Hickories don't normally do well around here (short growing season among other things). I'm not to worried about the sewer line problem, I was going to plant on the south east corner and the south side of the house and the sewer line goes out the west side. Red Maples ( not to be confused with Scarlet Maples witch stay under 30 ft. ) get about as big as the Silver Maples, in fact I have seen a Silver x Red cross that is supposed to have the autumn color and gracefulness of the Red but the growing speed of the Silver. Perhaps an Ash on the southwest corner? Greg H. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 01:08 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie HI Greg, Inregards to planting replacement tress i would go with a native deep rooted tree like a oak or hickery. They are slow growing, have deep tap roots that do not get into sewer pipes or septic tanks, you can eat the nuts and or acorns. Silver maples are notorius for blocking sewer pipies here in detroit, Red maples tend to stay small (very little shade). A little background on me, me and my wife, Ida, are triing to start a native tree and shrub nursery here in Detroit Mich., with a emphises on nuts and fruits. My wife has a Horticultural degree with MSU (MICHIGAN STATE UNVERSITY) geared towards trees. I hope this helps. HAPPY PLANTING, JOHN >Todd, >I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The smallest of the trees ( just >kinda skinny, but, tall ) is on the SW corner of the house. The 2nd tree is >on the NW corner of the house ( no shade from it ), and has another pine on >the neiborrs property about 5-8 ft from it, between the drout and the >compatition between the two they are both in bad shape. The 3rd tree is on >the SW corner of the yard and even when the shadows are there longest in >winter, the shade does not reach the house, in the summer all it does is >shade the front yard, & dropes needles, cones, and sap year round. Because >of the needle dropping problem, gutter life on the front of the house would >be 3-5 years if i wasn't up on the roof each week, and after every storm. >And then I have to find a way to get rid of all the needles. I'm planning on replaceing the one to the SW of the house ( just not sure what type of tree would be a good replacement perhaps a silver or red maple) Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 22:59 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > You're probably looking at $300 then. Is the price of firewood in > your area worth messing with it? I'm looking at around $225.00 a cord for soft woods, $300 for hard wood. > How much do they want to charge you for hauling it away? (Whether > they actually haul it or not?) I'm not sure, because it is worked into the price of firewood and the actual 'removal' of the tree. > Will they 'sell' it to you at a discount price, seeing as how their > transport costs would be non-existant? Didn't ask. The cost of renting a log splitter is $10.00/Hr 3 Hr minimum, and even if the cost of a chain saw is about the same, I figured I would still come out on top ( even if I went out and bought a chain saw new ). I was just figuring that if the I could cut with high pressure water faster and it be not as messy, it might bring the cost down even further. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
HI Greg, Inregards to planting replacement tress i would go with a native deep rooted tree like a oak or hickery. They are slow growing, have deep tap roots that do not get into sewer pipes or septic tanks, you can eat the nuts and or acorns. Silver maples are notorius for blocking sewer pipies here in detroit, Red maples tend to stay small (very little shade). A little background on me, me and my wife, Ida, are triing to start a native tree and shrub nursery here in Detroit Mich., with a emphises on nuts and fruits. My wife has a Horticultural degree with MSU (MICHIGAN STATE UNVERSITY) geared towards trees. I hope this helps. HAPPY PLANTING, JOHN >Todd, >I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado.Ê The smallest of the trees ( just >kinda skinny, but, tall ) is on the SW corner of the house. The 2nd tree is >on the NW corner of the house ( no shade from it ), and has another pine on >the neiborrs property about 5-8 ft from it, between the drout and the >compatition between the two they are both in bad shape.Ê The 3rd tree is on >the SW corner of the yard and even when the shadows are there longest in >winter, the shade does not reach the house, in the summer all it does is >shade the front yard, & dropes needles, cones, and sap year round.ÊÊ Because >of the needle dropping problem, gutter life on the front of the house would >be 3-5 years if i wasn't up on the roof each week, and after every storm. >And then I have to find a way to get rid of all the needles. I'm planning on replaceing the one to the SW of the house ( just not sure what type of tree would be a good replacement perhaps a silver or red maple) Greg H. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 19:20 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > Have you checked with several different companies? 8 of them, and none willing to give me a break on the price for *NOT* hauling the wood away. Seems some of them, turn around and sell it as firewood, but, since they would not be able to sell mine, they have to make up the cost some how. What prices are > they asking? Started at $75.00 per tree + $10.00 / Hr, 1 hr. mininium. >Is the company local? As far away as Monument (20 min. up the hwy). I would have to goto Pueblo or Castle Rock would be the next further out ( 45 min. ) How far away is it to a non-local > company? If you get a couple more neighbors with Tree removals > planned, can you make a cooperative offer to get an out of town > company to give a better price? > Thought about it already, no one else wants to keep the wood so they bring use the local. > How big are the trees, and how much free-space around them? > They are 25-30 year old pines ( lodge pole ? ), that were put in when the house was built in '79. I say up to 30 because the house was a model home for the area, and more than likely they wanted fast landscapeing so they might have put in larger trees ( 3-6 yrs.) They are easy 40 ft tall one of witch has a double trunk starting about 8 ft. up One could be droped into the street or the front yard, another into the front yard, the third, into the driveway after the cars are moved. Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
I checked already, they would charge me for hauling away the wood even if I have them leave it so I can burn it in my fireplace. Greg H. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 19:53 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > 3 very large pines in the yard, 2 of which are very close to the > house ( the > > trunks are less than 8 ft. from a wall ). > > > > Greg H. > > > > > I don't see how the technique could be used to cut a few trees in > a 'field' setting. > This is much more similar to an Industrial Laser. > > You may be much better off calling a Tree Removal Service for the > job. They should have the tools and skills needed, and adequate > insurance to cover any "Oops!" moments. > > Best Wishes, > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Todd, I live in Colorado Springs, Colorado. The smallest of the trees ( just kinda skinny, but, tall ) is on the SW corner of the house. The 2nd tree is on the NW corner of the house ( no shade from it ), and has another pine on the neiborrs property about 5-8 ft from it, between the drout and the compatition between the two they are both in bad shape. The 3rd tree is on the SW corner of the yard and even when the shadows are there longest in winter, the shade does not reach the house, in the summer all it does is shade the front yard, & dropes needles, cones, and sap year round. Because of the needle dropping problem, gutter life on the front of the house would be 3-5 years if i wasn't up on the roof each week, and after every storm. And then I have to find a way to get rid of all the needles. I'm planning on replaceing the one to the SW of the house ( just not sure what type of tree would be a good replacement perhaps a silver or red maple) Greg H. - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 19:40 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > Greg, > > Aside from pine sap being a bit messy on cars and roofs > (rooves?), pines have one very large tap root and the feeder > roots more often than not don't cause much of a problem with > foundations. Most of the time they will follow a roof line due to > the higher volume of water. > > Lived in Florida for fifteen years, several of which while > renovating a ranch house with nearly a dozen 12" and better in > diameter pines within 10 feet of the house. We excavated all of > the roots heading under the foundation and found that they pretty > much stopped traveling inward beyond the foundation line. > > Don't know where you live, but I'd pay dear for trees that > offered any degree of shade over a roofline. > > Todd Swearingen Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Greg, Aside from pine sap being a bit messy on cars and roofs (rooves?), pines have one very large tap root and the feeder roots more often than not don't cause much of a problem with foundations. Most of the time they will follow a roof line due to the higher volume of water. Lived in Florida for fifteen years, several of which while renovating a ranch house with nearly a dozen 12" and better in diameter pines within 10 feet of the house. We excavated all of the roots heading under the foundation and found that they pretty much stopped traveling inward beyond the foundation line. Don't know where you live, but I'd pay dear for trees that offered any degree of shade over a roofline. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > 3 very large pines in the yard, 2 of which are very close to the house ( the > trunks are less than 8 ft. from a wall ). > > Greg H. > > > > - Original Message - > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 15:04 > Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > > > > > What type of work are you doing with the dirty/messy chainsaw that > > may be able to be replaced by using water? > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
3 very large pines in the yard, 2 of which are very close to the house ( the trunks are less than 8 ft. from a wall ). Greg H. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 15:04 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > What type of work are you doing with the dirty/messy chainsaw that > may be able to be replaced by using water? > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Hey Motie, How long is that Non-disclosure in effect? I like the idea of not using a dirty / messy chain saw. Greg H. - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 22:53 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie > > I did some experimentation last winter for a technology development > company, using high pressure water to cut wood. At a lower pressure, > the water can be used to easily and cleanly remove the bark,(which > contains contaminants) then turn the pressure up to thinly slice the > wood, removing water soluble extracts. > Non-disclosure agreements won't allow further details. Sorry. > > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
Motie, High pressure water was commonly used to debark logs in sawmills the US until about 1970 when environmental regulations limited water discharge. Since then most all hydraulic debarkers have disappeared in favor of mechanical debarkers because of the high cost of cleaning the water prior to discharge. It was a clean and efficient method of debarking with very little fiber loss. Tom - Original Message - From: motie_d <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 9:53 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is an out of print book "Novel Drilling Technoques" that in the second > edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second with > liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per second if > memory serves. > Obscure technology. > > Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a couple hundred > psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a good > thing to happen. > > Kirk > I did some experimentation last winter for a technology development company, using high pressure water to cut wood. At a lower pressure, the water can be used to easily and cleanly remove the bark,(which contains contaminants) then turn the pressure up to thinly slice the wood, removing water soluble extracts. Non-disclosure agreements won't allow further details. Sorry. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Introduction and some questions - Newbie
This sort of stuff has been around for ages. It is also used in the steel fabrication industry to cut steel. If memory serves me correctly, in some situations ground industrial diamond is also added to the water for that "little extra zing". I have not seen this operation in use personally but the people who have told me about it say that the cut is better than any other method, flame, saw etc. Andrew On 6 Feb 2003 at 5:53, motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > There is an out of print book "Novel Drilling Technoques" that in > the second > > edition talks about cutting sandstone at several meters per second > with > > liquid pressures of that magnitude. Granite I think was 7cm per > second if > > memory serves. > > Obscure technology. > > > > Anyway, you can lose a lot more than just soft tissue. Even a > couple hundred > > psi can inject you like a hypodermic needle. Probably wouldn't be a > good > > thing to happen. > > > > Kirk > > > > I did some experimentation last winter for a technology development > company, using high pressure water to cut wood. At a lower pressure, > the water can be used to easily and cleanly remove the bark,(which > contains contaminants) then turn the pressure up to thinly slice the > wood, removing water soluble extracts. Non-disclosure agreements won't > allow further details. Sorry. > > Motie > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
