Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Murdoch, There have been several ideas put forward over the years to indicate that if space is composed of anything, it is rarefied hydrogen and maybe helium. Deep space is basically, (I am told), made up of hydrogen atoms at a variable density but typically individual molecules at about 100 mm (4) apart. There was a proposal to make a deep-space vehicle propelled on the ram-jet principle to scoop these up, heat them in a fusion reactor and chuck them out the back. I'm pretty sure NASA published details of the proposal some 20 years ago. It also seems generally agreed that the sun, like other stars, keeps going by fission of hydrogen to helium (and higher elements too). Because of its large gravity, hydrogen from the space around the sun would be attracted to the sun. As it happens, both hydrogen and helium have thermal molecular velocities above the escape velocity of Earth but not (I am told) of Jupiter, Saturn and perhaps Neptune. Perhaps there are puddles of the stuff out there at the bottom of a very serious gravity-well. But I do know from personal experience that keeping hydrogen confined on Planet Earth is bloody difficult and quite dangerous! Incidentally, re your 1 in 10, has any professional scientist or engineer at any of the US space agencies ever gone on record to say hydrogen *does not* leave our atmosphere in the general direction of up? Regards Michael Allen Thailand Interesting responses, thx. On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:19:53 +0700, you wrote: Sorry Murdoch, Didn't realise you had some questions in here. I forget what the escape velocity is for Planet Earth. But I know that normal hydrogen molecules exceed it. That is why free hydrogen does not exist in our planet's atmosphere. Like free water on the moon, it just keeps going. But you have a point: I would imagine that some hydrogen reacts with oxygen and ozone along the way. And perhaps with nitrogen too if the circumstances are right. I can't give you details because upper atmospheric chemistry and physics is above and beyond me :-. Actually, over the years, I have been on the side of trying to claim that some significant amounts of Hydrogen may escape Earth's atmosphere when chemically liberated, but I have usually been met with skepticism at best, shouting- down by professional scientists at worst. Your agreeing with the overall idea of this is maybe a 1 in 5 or 10 type of response. -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for Your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at Myinks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/sOykFB/k9VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Incidentally, re your 1 in 10, has any professional scientist or engineer at any of the US space agencies ever gone on record to say hydrogen *does not* leave our atmosphere in the general direction of up? Regards Michael Allen Thailand Not that I can think of. I haven't spoken with them directly (to my knowledge sometimes they are around but don't id themselves) though I did call a UCSD researcher once, just to try to give myself some better background on H2 in general. He was answering my questions from out of the blue and kept emphasizing the danger of H2 handling. He felt that, in and of itself, this reason probably precluded an H2 economy. He was not responsive to my concerns about atmospheric hydrogen depletion, nor is anyone else usually. But that was just one researcher (Chemistry I think, but with some aspect of Earth Science) answering questions from out of the blue. There was one knowledgeable person on the biofuel discussion board who was not outright dismissive once I explained what I was getting at. More often than not, folks assume that since they conceive of H2 as reacting with anything at all times, that no H2 could possible leave the atmosphere because it will react with something before it leaves. Sometimes this view is mitigated. My own concern is that, if we liberate globally massive amounts of Hydrogen in processes that were heretofore not going on, then we might see net Earth-System-Mass-depletion and H2 depletion. While this seems like an offbeat concern, I've just been keeping my eye open to see if there's any validity to it. I first heard the question raised on an NPR show about H2, a couple of years ago. The person who raised it turns out to have been right on the money as to Hydrogen escaping its confinement, regularly, and I wonder if they were right in their depletion concerns. It's hard to ask about when it's usually dismissed out of hand without decent reasoning. Also, they often say that H2 is added to the Earth every day so what's the big deal? or something like that. But no, I haven't taken anything to NASA. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy 1, Get 1 FREE Control Cravings Hunger EZ! Fast Acting Natural Oral Spray - $19.97 http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid=2866lp=ezappetite3.html http://us.click.yahoo.com/rJIe0D/99VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Interesting responses, thx. On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:19:53 +0700, you wrote: Sorry Murdoch, Didn't realise you had some questions in here. I forget what the escape velocity is for Planet Earth. But I know that normal hydrogen molecules exceed it. That is why free hydrogen does not exist in our planet's atmosphere. Like free water on the moon, it just keeps going. But you have a point: I would imagine that some hydrogen reacts with oxygen and ozone along the way. And perhaps with nitrogen too if the circumstances are right. I can't give you details because upper atmospheric chemistry and physics is above and beyond me :-. Actually, over the years, I have been on the side of trying to claim that some significant amounts of Hydrogen may escape Earth's atmosphere when chemically liberated, but I have usually been met with skepticism at best, shouting-down by professional scientists at worst. Your agreeing with the overall idea of this is maybe a 1 in 5 or 10 type of response. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Naturally Painless Spray Away Backaches Joint Pain. $19.97 http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid=2867lp=m331.html http://us.click.yahoo.com/tJIe0D/79VGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Sorry Murdoch, Didn't realise you had some questions in here. I forget what the escape velocity is for Planet Earth. But I know that normal hydrogen molecules exceed it. That is why free hydrogen does not exist in our planet's atmosphere. Like free water on the moon, it just keeps going. But you have a point: I would imagine that some hydrogen reacts with oxygen and ozone along the way. And perhaps with nitrogen too if the circumstances are right. I can't give you details because upper atmospheric chemistry and physics is above and beyond me :-. Hydrogen embrittlement is encountered in the process of making methanol from natural gas and several other processes where hydrogen forms. It is generally thought to be due to the reaction of hydrogen with iron carbides in the steel forming methane under huge pressures. Chromium carbides are much more stable so equipment for handling hydrogen as a hot gas is usually made out of high chromium steels (Hastelloy C for example). Austenitic stainless steel cannot be used because welding reduces the local chromium content. I think that work-hardening also becomes serious below about -20C for both austenitic S/S and all the Hastelloys. The best bet is probably some thick-walled magnesium-aluminium alloy with piping fabricated in 304 S/S. Why not ask NASA? Of course these materials cost more than common low carbon steels. Technically it may be possible to put hydrogen under very high pressures and very low temperature into road tankers and coastal vessels for transportation. It may even be possible to put a tank in every automobile in the world. But it will not IMO be a low cost solution. And in true Hollywood style, there is a much greater risk of a car exploding on impact if it is storing very high pressure hydrogen in a fuel tank within it somewhere. Sorry about the delay Michael Allen Thailand On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 23:10:37 -0700, murdoch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:44:52 +0700, you wrote: Dear Hakan, Your summary of hydrogen production technology is, IMO, spot on. However you say nothing about the distribution losses that have always plagued City Gas (which also contains carbon monoxide). This is not, as is commonly supposed, just caused by poorly maintained pipes: The hydrogen molecule is so very small that it can pass through atomic sized gaps. As a consequence, some pretty sophisticated equipment is required for its compression, storage and distribution. Even stainless steel pipes can lose hydrogen molecules! When I was working with the stuff, I was warned of the severe explosion risk caused by hydrogen lines, particularly in ducts, due to its very wide flammability range and its ability to find the smallest hole to escape through. I also remember that I was on no account to put my finger over a leaking hydrogen jet because the small molecule would pass through my skin and cause an embolism. In fact the only advantage of hydrogen storage and transportation that I ever discovered was that it doesn't hang around when it leaks: It heads straight up and tries to leave this planet. Question is: how much of it succeeds? For this reason, hydrogen carrying pipes were/are always brought around the outside of buildings. It is true that NASA has made some truly remarkable advances in the safe handling of hydrogen. But somehow I can't see my local filling station being able to match NASA even though they have considerable experience in handling compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane gas (LPG) as transport fuels. Hydrogen is in an entirely different league. And then, of course, there is hydrogen embrittlement . . What is hydrogen embrittlement? Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Inkjet cartridges up to 80% off. HP, Epson, Lexmark--we have your brand. Free shipping on every order to the U.S. and Canada! Excellent service. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5510 http://us.click.yahoo.com/QWB0QC/.eUGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 10:44:52 +0700, you wrote: Dear Hakan, Your summary of hydrogen production technology is, IMO, spot on. However you say nothing about the distribution losses that have always plagued City Gas (which also contains carbon monoxide). This is not, as is commonly supposed, just caused by poorly maintained pipes: The hydrogen molecule is so very small that it can pass through atomic sized gaps. As a consequence, some pretty sophisticated equipment is required for its compression, storage and distribution. Even stainless steel pipes can lose hydrogen molecules! When I was working with the stuff, I was warned of the severe explosion risk caused by hydrogen lines, particularly in ducts, due to its very wide flammability range and its ability to find the smallest hole to escape through. I also remember that I was on no account to put my finger over a leaking hydrogen jet because the small molecule would pass through my skin and cause an embolism. In fact the only advantage of hydrogen storage and transportation that I ever discovered was that it doesn't hang around when it leaks: It heads straight up and tries to leave this planet. Question is: how much of it succeeds? For this reason, hydrogen carrying pipes were/are always brought around the outside of buildings. It is true that NASA has made some truly remarkable advances in the safe handling of hydrogen. But somehow I can't see my local filling station being able to match NASA even though they have considerable experience in handling compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane gas (LPG) as transport fuels. Hydrogen is in an entirely different league. And then, of course, there is hydrogen embrittlement . . What is hydrogen embrittlement? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Save on Coral Calcium. Get Better Health and Stronger Bones. Seen on TV http://www.challengerone.com/t/l.asp?cid-2805lp=calcium2.asp http://us.click.yahoo.com/9gf46B/EfUGAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Dear Hakan, Your summary of hydrogen production technology is, IMO, spot on. However you say nothing about the distribution losses that have always plagued City Gas (which also contains carbon monoxide). This is not, as is commonly supposed, just caused by poorly maintained pipes: The hydrogen molecule is so very small that it can pass through atomic sized gaps. As a consequence, some pretty sophisticated equipment is required for its compression, storage and distribution. Even stainless steel pipes can lose hydrogen molecules! When I was working with the stuff, I was warned of the severe explosion risk caused by hydrogen lines, particularly in ducts, due to its very wide flammability range and its ability to find the smallest hole to escape through. I also remember that I was on no account to put my finger over a leaking hydrogen jet because the small molecule would pass through my skin and cause an embolism. In fact the only advantage of hydrogen storage and transportation that I ever discovered was that it doesn't hang around when it leaks: It heads straight up and tries to leave this planet. For this reason, hydrogen carrying pipes were/are always brought around the outside of buildings. It is true that NASA has made some truly remarkable advances in the safe handling of hydrogen. But somehow I can't see my local filling station being able to match NASA even though they have considerable experience in handling compressed natural gas (CNG) and liquid propane gas (LPG) as transport fuels. Hydrogen is in an entirely different league. And then, of course, there is hydrogen embrittlement . . . . . . Regards Michael Allen On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 07:09:01 +0200, Hakan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is some more thought provoking parts in my article the scam artists at work The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work. As mentioned, it is around 80 years old technologies and have been used in submarine technologies for a long time. It is often talked about as the energy solution for the future. The most common source of hydrogen (City gas), is gasification of coal and it has been used as City gas for a century. It can be produced by electrolysis of water, but the electricity needed is very close to the energy gained. If the electricity is produced by hydrogen also, it becomes negative. The future value of hydrogen is not really as an energy resource, when not produced from fossil fuels, but more as a conversion and energy storage method. Only in a situation of large coal reserves and/or large electricity surplus production, hydrogen would be valuable as fuel. In short term the large electricity production could come from nuclear and other traditional sources and on very long term Solar and Wind production could come into play. Hydrogen is like the fairy tales. To make 10 kW of Hydrogen from renewable source like electrolysis of water, you need 9 kW of electricity. Where is that electricity coming from? You do not need much knowledge to see that it is not enough hydrogen in this process, to produce more Hydrogen. To produce electricity from Hydrogen in fuel cells it is 30 to 50% efficiency, the same as a NG or diesel electricity plants. So if you put your 10 kW of Hydrogen in a fuel cell, you have 3 to 5 kW to use. Where did the original 9 kW come from? I think that the scam artists at work have some basic (nucleus) plans for this. Hydrogen was very much in use 50 years ago and is still common in the former Soviet Union. It is called City Gas and produced from gasification of coal. The major known reserves of coal are in US, Russia and EU. The use of coal have gone down and with the current use of coal, the known reserves will last around 200 years (R/P value). For US the R/P value is 235 years, but in a Hydrogen economy the R/P values will rapidly go down to double digits. It is a worrying attitude, sold by the scam artists at work. They want you to believe that coal is a salvation, even if the usage goes up 3-4 times and that US still would have coal for 235 years. It might come as a surprise for many, but it does not work that way. The more you use of a finite resource, the faster it will be finished. For me it is logical, how about you? Hakan ** If you want to take a look on a project that is very close to my heart, go to: http://energysavingnow.com/ http://hakan.vitools.net/ My .Net Card http://hakan.vitools.org/ About me http://vitools.com/ My webmaster site http://playa.nu/ Our small rental activities ** No flag is large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people -- Howard Zinn Nobody grows old merely by living a number of years. We grow old by deserting our ideals. Years may wrinkle the skin, but to give up enthusiasm wrinkles the soul. - Unknown Biofuels at Journey to Forever
Re: [biofuels-biz] The Hydrogen hype, the scam artists at work.
Hakan, Your perspective on hydrogen is probably right and needs saying in public. You make comparisons with gas from coal. I remember in the days before methane was discovered in the North Sea (known as 'North Sea' gas rather than 'Natural' gas here in Britain by the way), and most towns cities had their gasworks sited near the railway, canal or navigable river bringing in the coal. In Britain, the Commonwealth and elsewhere the product was known as 'Towns gas' rather than 'City gas'. The carbon monoxide content made it more toxic than methane. Apart from the points you made, these old gasworks are among the most polluted sites in the land, with naptha, phenols, tars sulphur compounds still in the soil, long after the bad egg smells have gone away. The same would apply to gas from biomass (or turkey guts), though with modern pollution abatement methods I suppose it can be kept under control. An interesting side note was that tar from the gasworks was used to surface roads at bus stops because it does not soften in the oil dripping from bus engines. At a meeting a couple of years ago, a delegate suggested that the best policy for global warming would be to burn all the world's trapped methane before it escaped into the atmosphere. Then there is the issue of methane hydrate on the sea bed.. Dvid T. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Lj3uPC/Me7FAA/ySSFAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
