Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Tobias Klein]

On 10.03.19 21:50, Michael Johnson wrote:

I am well aware that this does not address the preference majority language 
speakers may have for certain modern copyrighted proprietary Bible 
translations. The best solution for access to those is to figure out a way to 
pay for those. This is not unreasonable. One of my few contributions to the 
Sword Project code was the encryption code used for locked modules for sale. 
However, the current model for selling modules excludes the Crosswire Bible 
Society, which actually doesn't handle money. I could through
eBible.org, but I would need help with that.


Thanks for the clarification regarding DBL, Michael - that is very 
helpful! Do you know of any projects that sell non-free translations for 
the purpose of using them in an open source product?

I have only seen non-free translations in commercial bible software so far.

So, if I understood you correctly, the availability of specific non-free 
bible translations for use in an open source product would still depend 
on individual negotiation efforts with the respective bible societies?


If I and/or others would want to pursue that route - do you have any 
other recommendations, specifically regarding the negotiation process?


Best regards,
Tobias


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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Peter von Kaehne]

On Sun, 2019-03-10 at 10:50 -1000, Michael Johnson wrote:
> Hello, Tobias & all.
> 
> I would like to clear up a misconception about the Every Tribe Every
> Nation (ETEN) Digital Bible Library (DBL). Getting admitted as a
> library card holder does not give you access to any Bible
> translations you cannot access without such access. Read that again.
> Getting admitted as a library card holder does not give you access to
> any Bible translations you cannot access without such access. All it
> does is give you a channel to negotiate individually with all of the
> Intellectual Property Contributors (IPCs)
> in the DBL, more or less like you would without the DBL.

That may be so in theory, but in practice lack of membership has shut
down a growing number of negotiations I was involved in. There is no
good reason why we are not a member and every reason to be a member. 

Peter



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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[David Haslam]

Seconded!

Tim Jore’s book is highly recommended.

David

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On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 21:35, Michael H  wrote:

> The link Michael points to is freedom of access itself. You'll miss the 
> difference if you just go poke through the several English translation 
> available there.
>
> The concept of freedom of access behind unfolding word is found in the book 
> "The Christian Commons." I strongly recommend reading this work.
>
> https://www.unfoldingword.org/tcc___
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Michael H]

The link Michael points to is freedom of access itself. You'll miss the
difference if you just go poke through the several English translation
available there.

The concept of freedom of access behind unfolding word is found in the book
"The Christian Commons." I strongly recommend reading this work.

https://www.unfoldingword.org/tcc
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Michael Johnson]

Hello, Tobias & all.

I would like to clear up a misconception about the Every Tribe Every Nation 
(ETEN) Digital Bible Library (DBL). Getting admitted as a library card holder 
does not give you access to any Bible translations you cannot access without 
such access. Read that again. Getting admitted as a library card holder does 
not give you access to any Bible translations you cannot access without such 
access. All it does is give you a channel to negotiate individually with all of 
the Intellectual Property Contributors (IPCs)
in the DBL, more or less like you would without the DBL. It does provide a more 
consistent platform for doing so than not having the DBL, and it does help 
encourage people to provide Scriptures in a common format (USX).

ALL of the Bible translations you can access by default as a DBL library card 
holder (LCH) are available at 
http://app.thedigitalbiblelibrary.org/entries/public_domain_entries?type=text
Note that periodically, I update my collection at eBible.org from that source, 
so that these Bible translations are available on the eBible.org sword 
repository as well as at https://eBible.org/find/. (My position as a DBL LCH 
isn't all in vain. I lobbied for that kind of access for you.)

There is another place were DBL Bible translations can be accessed for LIMITED 
use at https://scripture.api.bible/. This is where you can get free access to 
some modern copyrighted translations, provided you don't cache it very long, 
don't access it too often or with too many copies, and use it online only with 
their web bugs enabled.

For what it is worth, eBible.org as an organization is a DBL LCH. It doesn't 
help much. It does give me the ability to negotiate pay for Bible access, if I 
had money to do so. Honestly, if I had a significant amount of money to spend 
on Bible translation access, I would prefer to spend it on facilitating Bible 
translations where the translators and supporting organizations are committed 
to free/libre licensing of the resulting copyrighted texts. See 
https://www.unfoldingword.org/.

I am well aware that this does not address the preference majority language 
speakers may have for certain modern copyrighted proprietary Bible 
translations. The best solution for access to those is to figure out a way to 
pay for those. This is not unreasonable. One of my few contributions to the 
Sword Project code was the encryption code used for locked modules for sale. 
However, the current model for selling modules excludes the Crosswire Bible 
Society, which actually doesn't handle money. I could through
eBible.org, but I would need help with that.



On 3/10/19 1:38 AM, Tobias Klein wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Has there been any discussion on how to get newer/modern (copyrighted) bible 
> translations into the "Sword ecosystem"?
> Users are of course more interested in modern/current translations than very 
> old ones that do not reflect today's language anymore.
>
> Of course this may require some licensing/payment system, but that shouldn't 
> be a too big impediment, huh?
>
> Do you guys know the digital bible library 
> (http://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org).
> They provide access to all kinds of modern translations, but only to "Library 
> Card Holders". I believe this is used by the "YouVersion Bible App" - which 
> is extremely popular (but not open source ...). It's possible to "apply for a 
> library card" for "qualified ministries". On their website it says: "Other 
> organizations may apply for a library card through this website. Approved 
> card holders gain access to the digital files through establishing license 
> agreements with IP contributors."
>
> Maybe there are other possibilities besides this "digital bible library"?
>
> Best regards,
> Tobias
>
>
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-- 
signature

Aloha,
*/Michael Johnson/**
PO BOX 881143 • PUKALANI HI 96788-1143*• USA
mljohnson.org  • Phone: +1 808-333-6921 • Skype: 
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Tobias Klein]

On 10.03.19 17:26, David Haslam wrote:
We already provide a module encryption feature. Copyright owners 
themselves are expected to manage the user access to unlock keys. Only 
a few publishers have so far chosen to avail themselves of this 
facility. One that has is the publisher of the NET Bible.


The question is whether that is going to happen with the given 
constraints. If copyright owners have to do that work, then they may not 
want that. But if that digital infrastructure would be managed by the 
organization that distributes the actual bible software modules 
(CrossWire), it may turn out as an enabler!


Have you guys thought about a different approach concerning copyrighted 
modules, but didn't pursue it, because it would require too much 
maintenance effort? I would like to understand the motivation a bit 
more, thanks for helping me understand.


I think CrossWire, Sword and all the frontends would gain a much bigger 
user base if modern translations would be available as Sword modules :).


Best regards,
Tobias


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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[David Haslam]

In 2012, it just happened to be in Germany for convenience. It was basically an 
event immediately preceding another larger conference called EMDC at the same 
location that year.

The two gatherings are not formally connected and both are “moveable feasts” 
that have met at other venues separately.

AFAIK, the most recent gathering butted up to the last meeting of the SBL, but 
I was not in attendance at either.

CrossWire is not going to register as a non-Profit for the simple reason that 
it is non-Income. We simply have no accounts to be audited under non-Profit 
regulations in any jurisdiction.

It’s a much looser association than any such type of organisation. Everyone 
connected with CrossWire does so freely as a volunteer.

We already provide a module encryption feature. Copyright owners themselves are 
expected to manage the user access to unlock keys. Only a few publishers have 
so far chosen to avail themselves of this facility. One that has is the 
publisher of the NET Bible.

Regards,

David

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 15:31, Tobias Klein  wrote:

> On 10.03.19 15:44, David Haslam wrote:
>
>> And when I was at the Digital Bible Summit in Germany during 2012 we were 
>> even actively encouraged to apply.
>
> Oh cool, I didn't even know that such an event took place over here.
>
>> I attended by invitation. The organisers were fully aware of my role in 
>> CrossWire.
>>
>> Aside: CrossWire is a non-income Society, so the question of making a 
>> payment to a copyright owner for a distribution license simply does not 
>> arise.
>
> I guess the following would be required:
>
> - A non-profit organisation, that is legally allowed to charge their users to 
> pay for the license fees.
> - Some kind of payment / unlock system integrated with sword
> - Some additional administration efforts due to that
> - Dealing with the fiscal system and your donors every year
>
> In Germany it's pretty easy to set up non profit orgs like that. You just 
> need the man power for it ...
> There's actually a well known and big open source project that runs its 
> organization based on a non-profit in Germany ([KDE 
> e.v.](https://ev.kde.org/) for the KDE desktop).
>
> Best regards,
> Tobias___
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Tobias Klein]

On 10.03.19 15:44, David Haslam wrote:
And when I was at the Digital Bible Summit in Germany during 2012 we 
were even actively encouraged to apply.

Oh cool, I didn't even know that such an event took place over here.


I attended by invitation. The organisers were fully aware of my role 
in CrossWire.


Aside: CrossWire is a non-income Society, so the question of making a 
payment to a copyright owner for a distribution license simply does 
not arise.


I guess the following would be required:

- A non-profit organisation, that is legally allowed to charge their 
users to pay for the license fees.

- Some kind of payment / unlock system integrated with sword
- Some additional administration efforts due to that
- Dealing with the fiscal system and your donors every year

In Germany it's pretty easy to set up non profit orgs like that. You 
just need the man power for it ...
There's actually a well known and big open source project that runs its 
organization based on a non-profit in Germany (KDE e.v. 
 for the KDE desktop).


Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] New sword-based bible software: Ezra Project 0.7.1

[David Haslam]

We ought to add a page about Ezra in the SWORD Developers’ wiki.

And list this new front-end in our main wiki page.

David

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 20:10, Troy A. Griffitts  wrote:

> Hi Tobias,
>
> Thanks for this.  We might find some synergy between our frontend efforts.  
> Bishop is the first frontend written using the Cordova bindings available 
> within the SWORD source.  I am not sure how much Electron desktop apps and 
> Cordova mobile apps share when it comes to writing native plugins, but you 
> might find the Cordova plugin helpful.  It is by no means a well refined 
> binding of the SWORD C++ engine for JavaScript, but it works well enough for 
> the Bishop Android and iOS apps.  It exposes three main SWORD classes: 
> InstallMgr, SWMgr, and SWModule.
>
> You can see the .js interface here:
>
> http://crosswire.org/svn/sword/trunk/bindings/cordova/org.crosswire.sword.cordova.SWORD/www/SWORD.js
>
> Looking forward to trying your project and sharing in work together.
>
> Troy
>
> On 2/24/19 10:38 AM, Tobias Klein wrote:
>
>> Hello sword developers,
>>
>> My name is Tobias Klein. I'm a Christian and software developer based in 
>> Mannheim, Germany.
>>
>> I've just published a new release of Ezra Project (version 0.7.1) on Github:
>>
>> https://github.com/tobias-klein/ezra-project/releases/tag/0.7.1
>>
>> Feature overview in a video tutorial: 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8gScfa0MqM
>>
>> I've been starting to work on this software about 9 years ago, at that time 
>> it was web-based. I figured that the web-based approach (server-based) was 
>> not super useful for end users, so last year I turned the software into a 
>> Desktop app (still the same javascript-based frontend, but based on 
>> Electron) and this is what I'm releasing now.
>>
>> This version comes with a very basic feature: Topic-based verse tagging.
>> The general idea behind Ezra Project is to have a bible software that allows 
>> the user to store self-created study material right with the bible text.
>>
>> The tagging feature is what I use myself extensively for topical study to 
>> prepare sermons, home bible studies, etc. I found it very valuable to 
>> maintain my own "topical index".
>>
>> In my web-based version of Ezra Project I have some more features that I may 
>> migrate to this desktop application one feature at a time in the future. 
>> Planned features are:
>>
>> - Export of tagged verses to text document
>> - In-book search
>> - Cross-bible search with possibility to tag within search results
>>
>> Some technical infos:
>>
>> - Ezra Project uses a C++ library that wraps the Sword interface behind an 
>> Electron-compatible interface: 
>> https://github.com/tobias-klein/ezra-sword-interface
>> - Ezra Project currently runs on Windows (tested on Windows 10) and on Linux 
>> (64 bit, tested on Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS).
>>
>> I'd be happy about any feedback regarding Ezra Project. Since I just 
>> published it there are not any users, yet. I thought it may be good to start 
>> with you guys here ... :)
>>
>> Greetings from Mannheim, Germany
>>
>> Tobias
>>
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[David Haslam]

And when I was at the Digital Bible Summit in Germany during 2012 we were even 
actively encouraged to apply.

I attended by invitation. The organisers were fully aware of my role in 
CrossWire.

Aside: CrossWire is a non-income Society, so the question of making a payment 
to a copyright owner for a distribution license simply does not arise.

David

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile

On Sun, Mar 10, 2019 at 14:20, Troy A. Griffitts  wrote:

> We've tried many times over the years. We can try again.
>
> On March 10, 2019 5:49:10 AM MDT, Cyrille  wrote:
>
>> Il 10/03/2019 12:38, Tobias Klein ha scritto:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Has there been any discussion on how to get newer/modern (copyrighted)
>>>
>>> bible translations into the "Sword ecosystem"?
>>>
>>> Users are of course more interested in modern/current translations
>>>
>>> than very old ones that do not reflect today's language anymore.
>>>
>>> Of course this may require some licensing/payment system, but that
>>>
>>> shouldn't be a too big impediment, huh?
>>>
>>> Do you guys know the digital bible library
>>>
>>> (
>>> http://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org
>>> ).
>>>
>>> They provide access to all kinds of modern translations, but only to
>>>
>>> "Library Card Holders". I believe this is used by the "YouVersion
>>>
>>> Bible App" - which is extremely popular (but not open source ...).
>>>
>>> It's possible to "apply for a library card" for "qualified
>>>
>>> ministries". On their website it says: "Other organizations may apply
>>>
>>> for a library card through this website. Approved card holders gain
>>>
>>> access to the digital files through establishing license agreements
>>>
>>> with IP contributors."
>>>
>>> Maybe there are other possibilities besides this "digital bible library"?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Tobias
>>
>> +1
>>
>>> ---
>>>
>>> sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org
>>> http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel
>>>
>>> Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
>>
>> ---
>>
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>>
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>
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Tobias Klein]

On 10.03.19 15:20, Troy A. Griffitts wrote:

We've tried many times over the years. We can try again.


What has been tried exactly and why were those efforts not fruitful so far?

Best regards,
Tobias


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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Troy A. Griffitts]

We've tried many times over the years. We can try again. 

On March 10, 2019 5:49:10 AM MDT, Cyrille  wrote:
>
>
>Il 10/03/2019 12:38, Tobias Klein ha scritto:
>> Hi,
>>
>> Has there been any discussion on how to get newer/modern
>(copyrighted)
>> bible translations into the "Sword ecosystem"?
>> Users are of course more interested in modern/current translations
>> than very old ones that do not reflect today's language anymore.
>>
>> Of course this may require some licensing/payment system, but that
>> shouldn't be a too big impediment, huh?
>>
>> Do you guys know the digital bible library
>> (http://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org).
>> They provide access to all kinds of modern translations, but only to
>> "Library Card Holders". I believe this is used by the "YouVersion
>> Bible App" - which is extremely popular (but not open source ...).
>> It's possible to "apply for a library card" for "qualified
>> ministries". On their website it says: "Other organizations may apply
>> for a library card through this website. Approved card holders gain
>> access to the digital files through establishing license agreements
>> with IP contributors."
>>
>> Maybe there are other possibilities besides this "digital bible
>library"?
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Tobias
>>
>>
>+1
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>
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Re: [sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Cyrille]

Il 10/03/2019 12:38, Tobias Klein ha scritto:
> Hi,
>
> Has there been any discussion on how to get newer/modern (copyrighted)
> bible translations into the "Sword ecosystem"?
> Users are of course more interested in modern/current translations
> than very old ones that do not reflect today's language anymore.
>
> Of course this may require some licensing/payment system, but that
> shouldn't be a too big impediment, huh?
>
> Do you guys know the digital bible library
> (http://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org).
> They provide access to all kinds of modern translations, but only to
> "Library Card Holders". I believe this is used by the "YouVersion
> Bible App" - which is extremely popular (but not open source ...).
> It's possible to "apply for a library card" for "qualified
> ministries". On their website it says: "Other organizations may apply
> for a library card through this website. Approved card holders gain
> access to the digital files through establishing license agreements
> with IP contributors."
>
> Maybe there are other possibilities besides this "digital bible library"?
>
> Best regards,
> Tobias
>
>
+1
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[sword-devel] New/modern (copyrighted) bible translations

[Tobias Klein]

Hi,

Has there been any discussion on how to get newer/modern (copyrighted) 
bible translations into the "Sword ecosystem"?
Users are of course more interested in modern/current translations than 
very old ones that do not reflect today's language anymore.


Of course this may require some licensing/payment system, but that 
shouldn't be a too big impediment, huh?


Do you guys know the digital bible library 
(http://thedigitalbiblelibrary.org).
They provide access to all kinds of modern translations, but only to 
"Library Card Holders". I believe this is used by the "YouVersion Bible 
App" - which is extremely popular (but not open source ...). It's 
possible to "apply for a library card" for "qualified ministries". On 
their website it says: "Other organizations may apply for a library card 
through this website. Approved card holders gain access to the digital 
files through establishing license agreements with IP contributors."


Maybe there are other possibilities besides this "digital bible library"?

Best regards,
Tobias


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