Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Kovács Zoltán]

Fr Cyrille  ezt írta (időpont: 2022. szept. 1.,
Cs, 12:27):

>
>
> Le 01/09/2022 à 12:19, Kovács Zoltán a écrit :
>
> Plus:
> It seems some verse numberings are different.
> E.g., version 2.5: Psalms 18:47 = version 3.0: Psalms 17:48
> For me, such changes break several parts of the database.
> Is there a list of such modifications available?
> Thanks, Zoltan
>
>
> The new module use the new versification, LXX. You can see the new v11n in
> the sword's sources.
>

Thanks for the information! I understand that 2.5 uses KJV (as default), so
I have all entries in KJV v11n in my database.
Is there a simple way to convert a KJV verse notation into LXX v11n? I
learned that using VerseKey is a possible way,
but I just want to keep my working method via
SWModule *module = (SWMgr) library.getModule("LXX")
and force using KJV v11n also if 3.0 is used.
Thanks for advising me further.
Best, Zoltan
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX (typos corrected)

[Troy A. Griffitts]

Sorry lots of typos in the last email from my phone. Some corrections below:

On September 1, 2022 2:41:57 PM GMT+02:00, "Troy A. Griffitts" 
 wrote:
>So, LXX is hard. Chris Little did a bit of research a while back on editions 
>of the Greek OT. Some of his hard work is available here:
>
>https://crosswire.org/svn/sword-tools/trunk/versification/lxx_v11ns/
>
>There are all kinds of crazy things in there, including out of order verse 
>numbers (SWORD doesn't currently support), more than one text tradition of the 
>same book:
>
>https://crosswire.org/study/bookdisplay.jsp?mod=LXXM
>
>Notice in the index along the left JoshB and JoshA, JudgB and JudgA, etc.
>
>In the end, we decided the least of all evils was simply to settle on a 
>superset LXX v11n that contains a place for everything.  The downside of this 
>is that you may find empty verses (as David has found).  Another downside is 
>that we allow the same content to be versified in different ways IN THE SAME 
>V11N depending on how the edition versifies it-- this makes it very hard to 
>build a map file to show a true parallel display in the future.  The upside is 
>that we can show most LXX editions the way they were published, and that 
>outweighed the downsides.  If we ever actually improve our mapping data to 
>show, among others, LXX next to Masoretic versification, we can consider 
>breaking out the LXX into multiple v11ns or some other solution (v11n 
>exceptions in the .conf file has been a consideration), but this hasn't seen 
>anyone really step up to do all this mapling data work-- except for the hard 
>work from Костя for initial design and implementation of v11n mappings support 
>and a few initial mappings.
>
>Anyway, that's the background and problems, with the path to where we are 
>today,
>
>Troy
>
>
>
>On September 1, 2022 2:12:31 PM GMT+02:00, domcox  wrote:
>
>   David Haslam  writes:
>
>   Thanks Pierre, For information on 1 Enoch, see
>   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch I now rather wonder
>   why this book is even specified in the LXX versification? 
>
>   IMHO, 1 Enoch should not be specified in the LXX v11n.
>
>   I propose to remove it from the current v11n definition,
>   SWORD source file: include/canon_lxx.h
>
>
>   -- Dom
>   
>   sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org
>   http://crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to
>   unsubscribe/change your settings at above page

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Troy A. Griffitts]

So, LXX is hard. Chris Little did a bit of research a while back on 
editions of the Greek OT. Some of his hard work is available here:


https://crosswire.org/svn/sword-tools/trunk/versification/lxx_v11ns/

There are all kinds of crazy things in there, including our of order 
verse numbers (SWORD doesn't current support), more than one text 
tradition of the same book:


http://crosswire.org/study/bookdisplay.jsp?mod=LXXM

Notice in the index along the left JoshB and JoshA, JudgB and JudgA, etc.

In the end, we decided the worst of all evils was simply to settle on a 
superset LXX v11n that contains a place for everything.  The downside of 
this is that you may find a empty verses (as David has found).  Another 
downside is that we allow the same content to be versified in different 
ways IN THE SAME V11N depending on how the edition versifies it-- this 
makes it very hard to build a true parallel display in the future.  The 
upside is that we can simply show most LXX editions the way they were 
published, and that outweighed the downsides.  If we ever actually 
improve our mapping data to show LXX next to Masoretic versification, we 
can consider breaking out the LXX into multiple v11ns or some other 
solution (v11n exception in the .conf file has been a consideration), 
but this hasn't had anyone really step up to do all this work-- except 
for the hard work from Костя for initial design and implementation of 
v11n mappings support and a few initial mappings.


Anyway, that's the background and problems, with the path to where we 
are today,


Troy



On September 1, 2022 2:12:31 PM GMT+02:00, domcox  
wrote:


   David Haslam  writes:

   Thanks Pierre, For information on 1 Enoch, see
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch I now rather wonder
   why this book is even specified in the LXX versification? 



   IMHO, 1 Enoch should not be specified in the LXX v11n.

   I propose to remove it from the current v11n definition,
   SWORD source file: include/canon_lxx.h


   -- Dom
   
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[domcox]

David Haslam  writes:


Thanks Pierre,

For information on 1 Enoch, see 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch


I now rather wonder why this book is even specified in the LXX 
versification?


IMHO, 1 Enoch should not be specified in the LXX v11n.

I propose to remove it from the current v11n definition,
SWORD source file: include/canon_lxx.h


--
Dom
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Fr Cyrille]

Le 01/09/2022 à 12:19, Kovács Zoltán a écrit :

Plus:
It seems some verse numberings are different.
E.g., version 2.5: Psalms 18:47 = version 3.0: Psalms 17:48
For me, such changes break several parts of the database.
Is there a list of such modifications available?
Thanks, Zoltan


The new module use the new versification, LXX. You can see the new v11n 
in the sword's sources.


Kovács Zoltán  ezt írta (időpont: 2022. szept. 1., 
Cs, 12:13):


Pierre,
thank you for your hard work on this.

pierre amadio  ezt írta (időpont: 2022.
aug. 31., Sze, 16:23):

Hello.

I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the
attic repository.
https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories


I did not find version 2.5, but that's OK for now, at least for me.

Would it be possible to get more information about the issues
you found ?


Yes, of course.
1. I assumed there are no accents, so my database was built
incorrectly. I fixed this issue in

https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/9917f19ed8f5c23fa3671917c395b414791da8cf
2. I assumed that the last LXX book was Malachi, but in 3.0 it is
Daniel. (There is a new ordering of the books.)
I fixed this in

https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/13f8485bbcb225575447474d8f0032a9e95acbb3

I know that my implementation was previously rather hacky, so I
consider these issues on my side and not in the new version of
LXX. ;-)

Best, Zoltan



--

*Dr. Zoltán** Kovács, MSc*

Institut Ausbildung

/Private Pädagogische Hochschule der Diözese Linz
//Private University of Education, Diocese Linz
//Salesianumweg 3, 4020 Linz//
//Mail: zoltan.kov...@ph-linz.at/

/Web: www.ph-linz.at /

/
/


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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Kovács Zoltán]

Plus:
It seems some verse numberings are different.
E.g., version 2.5: Psalms 18:47 = version 3.0: Psalms 17:48
For me, such changes break several parts of the database.
Is there a list of such modifications available?
Thanks, Zoltan

Kovács Zoltán  ezt írta (időpont: 2022. szept. 1., Cs,
12:13):

> Pierre,
> thank you for your hard work on this.
>
> pierre amadio  ezt írta (időpont: 2022. aug.
> 31., Sze, 16:23):
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the attic
>> repository.
>> https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories
>>
>
> I did not find version 2.5, but that's OK for now, at least for me.
>
>
>> Would it be possible to get more information about the issues you found ?
>>
>
> Yes, of course.
> 1. I assumed there are no accents, so my database was built incorrectly. I
> fixed this issue in
> https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/9917f19ed8f5c23fa3671917c395b414791da8cf
> 2. I assumed that the last LXX book was Malachi, but in 3.0 it is Daniel.
> (There is a new ordering of the books.)
> I fixed this in
> https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/13f8485bbcb225575447474d8f0032a9e95acbb3
>
> I know that my implementation was previously rather hacky, so I consider
> these issues on my side and not in the new version of LXX. ;-)
>
> Best, Zoltan
>


-- 

*Dr. Zoltán** Kovács, MSc*

Institut Ausbildung




*Private Pädagogische Hochschule der Diözese Linz*
*Private University of Education, Diocese Linz**Salesianumweg 3, 4020 Linz*
*Mail: zoltan.kov...@ph-linz.at *

*Web: www.ph-linz.at *
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Kovács Zoltán]

Pierre,
thank you for your hard work on this.

pierre amadio  ezt írta (időpont: 2022. aug. 31.,
Sze, 16:23):

> Hello.
>
> I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the attic
> repository.
> https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories
>

I did not find version 2.5, but that's OK for now, at least for me.


> Would it be possible to get more information about the issues you found ?
>

Yes, of course.
1. I assumed there are no accents, so my database was built incorrectly. I
fixed this issue in
https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/9917f19ed8f5c23fa3671917c395b414791da8cf
2. I assumed that the last LXX book was Malachi, but in 3.0 it is Daniel.
(There is a new ordering of the books.)
I fixed this in
https://github.com/kovzol/bibref/commit/13f8485bbcb225575447474d8f0032a9e95acbb3

I know that my implementation was previously rather hacky, so I consider
these issues on my side and not in the new version of LXX. ;-)

Best, Zoltan
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Fr Cyrille]

Thank you friends for all these remarks. It seems to be more related to 
the frontend than the module. Congratulations again Pierre for this 
work. At home under xiphos everything displays well. I don't have the 
prayer of Azarias either but it is contained in the chapter 3 of Daniel. 
1Henoch is indeed not present in the sources. Congratulations also for 
the access to the variants, I had not seen that you had taken it into 
account.
David's question about the presence of 1Enoch in the LXX versification, 
seems relevant!


Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

Le 31/08/2022 à 20:57, David Haslam a écrit :

Thanks Pierre,

For information on 1 Enoch, seehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch

I now rather wonder why this book is even specified in the LXX versification?

Using the Sword utility emptyvss on the LXX module, it currently outputs 2803 
verses, of which Enoch accounts for 1080 verses, with Prayer of Manasses 15 and 
Prayer of Azariah 68 verses. These are the only three missing whole books.

For Odes, there are 369 missing verses out of a total of 643.

That still leaves a lot of unaccounted missing verses in other books!
These need to be investigated in detail.

Aside: The PocketSword mishandling of osisID="PssSol" may be due to a software 
bug in the front-end. Although it was compiled using a version of SWORD that supports the 
LXX v11n, maybe it falls short in how the UI deals with this book?

Best regards,

David

Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

--- Original Message ---
On Wednesday, August 31st, 2022 at 6:04 PM, pierre 
amadio  wrote:



Hi there !

Note that I was puzzled by what to do with those books when building
the module, see comments in
https://github.com/pierre-amadio/LXX/blob/main/bin/5-specificStuff.sh


However, there are a few books missing from this single maximal range. eg.
Pra (Prayer of Manasseh)

This is present as Odes 12 in the source document.


Pra (Prayer of Azariah)

Googling a bit, there is page that mention Daniel 3:24
https://www.internationalstandardbible.com/S/song-of-the-three-children.html
Daniel 3:24 3:30

I am not familiar with those texts, but both variants in the module
mention something like "this is how prayed azariah" at the beginning
of those verses.


1Eno (1 Enoch)

I did not find any trace of this book in the original document.


Furthermore, the LXX v11n includes Psalms of Solomon which has 18 chapters,
but PocketSword (eg) displays Psalm 1 when this book is selected.


This seems to be work as expected with xiphos and diateke.

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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[domcox]

David Haslam  writes:

Had there been no books missing from module LXX that are 
specified in the LXX versification, 
then the following would suffice:


Scope=Gen-Ode


I tried Gen-Ruth' and came to the conclusion that actually 'Scope' 
support is not implemented in Bibletime, Diatheke and Xiphos.



--
Dom
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[pierre amadio]

Hi there !

Note that I   was puzzled by what to do with those books when building
the module, see comments in
https://github.com/pierre-amadio/LXX/blob/main/bin/5-specificStuff.sh

>However, there are a few books missing from this single maximal range. eg.
>Pra (Prayer of Manasseh)
This is present as Odes 12 in the source document.

> Pra (Prayer of Azariah)
Googling a bit, there is page that mention Daniel 3:24
https://www.internationalstandardbible.com/S/song-of-the-three-children.html
Daniel 3:24 3:30

I am not familiar with those texts, but both variants in the module
mention something  like "this is how prayed azariah" at the beginning
of those verses.

> 1Eno (1 Enoch)
I did not find any trace of this book in the original document.

>Furthermore, the LXX v11n includes Psalms of Solomon which has 18 chapters,
>but PocketSword (eg) displays Psalm 1 when this book is selected.

This seems to be work as expected with xiphos and diateke.
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Tobias Klein]

Is there a possibility to set the version number of a module when 
installing it?

I was not aware of that. In that case, it would also be a backend topic!

Best regards,
Tobias

On 8/31/22 4:44 PM, Michael H wrote:
FYI: based on this thread, I submitted the following as an 
[enhancement] to the Bibletime tracker.


If you develop a front end, consider that the 'attic' is only present 
for (some) crosswire modules.. and the process of recovering an 
updated module isn't exactly user friendly, and could be handled 
better in All front ends.


- snip -

[ENHANCEMENT] Local Attic #407

Recent LXX "update" included new content, but also apparently bugs. 
(see Sword-dev)


It would be NICE if Bibletime locally saved the older versions on 
update, then provided a "There is an older version of this module 
available... click to revert" functionality for at least a few days, 
maybe up to about 90. After that keeping files present that aren't 
used is just bloatware.


While the crosswire attic is possibly available, keeping older 
versions present for (90?) days after an update might provide better 
functionality, especially in areas where internet is not always 
available or safe, and the attic repo isn't really intuitive for 
someone who finds problems.


- snip -




On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:23 AM pierre amadio > wrote:


Hello.

I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the attic
repository.
https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories


Would it be possible to get more information about the issues you
found ?


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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[domcox]

David Haslam  writes:


The conf file includes this key

# Partial text. Allow front-ends to only display the books 
actually present.

Scope=Gen-Mal

Scope should specify the ranges of books present
in the exact order they occur in the module Versification.

If there are any front-ends that now support the Scope key,
they would probably not work with Gen-Mal for this module.


I don't know how Scope is implemented, but in Xiphos I see several 
books after Mal, finishing by Odes. NT books are not displayed.



--
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Michael H]

FYI: based on this thread, I submitted the following as an [enhancement] to
the Bibletime tracker.

If you develop a front end, consider that the 'attic' is only present for
(some) crosswire modules.. and the process of recovering an updated module
isn't exactly user friendly, and could be handled better in All front ends.

- snip -

[ENHANCEMENT] Local Attic #407

Recent LXX "update" included new content, but also apparently bugs. (see
Sword-dev)

It would be NICE if Bibletime locally saved the older versions on update,
then provided a "There is an older version of this module available...
click to revert" functionality for at least a few days, maybe up to about
90. After that keeping files present that aren't used is just bloatware.

While the crosswire attic is possibly available, keeping older versions
present for (90?) days after an update might provide better functionality,
especially in areas where internet is not always available or safe, and the
attic repo isn't really intuitive for someone who finds problems.

- snip -



On Wed, Aug 31, 2022 at 9:23 AM pierre amadio 
wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the attic
> repository.
> https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories
>
> Would it be possible to get more information about the issues you found ?
>
>
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[pierre amadio]

Hello.

I suppose you should be able to find the 2.5 version in the attic
repository.
https://wiki.crosswire.org/Official_and_Affiliated_Module_Repositories

Would it be possible to get more information about the issues you found ?
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Re: [sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[Kovács Zoltán]

Dear Team,
thank you for the notification.
I tried this new version in the bibref program (
https://github.com/kovzol/bibref).
First of all, it is nice to have a more complete list of books (including
Judith, Tobit and others). Thank you!
On the other hand, unfortunately, I found some issues when loading some
books, so I prefer to keep the old version (2.5 for the moment) to make
things work without updating my application for the new edition.
Is there a way to get access to the old versions somehow? Now
http://www.crosswire.org/sword/modules/ModInfo.jsp?modName=LXX lists the
old data and the link
http://www.crosswire.org/sword/servlet/SwordMod.Verify?modName=LXX=raw
it provides will serve the new version.
Thanks for any hints in advance!
Best, Zoltan
 ezt írta (időpont: 2022. aug. 30., K, 15:44):

> Dear All,
>
> This is to announce that we have just now uploaded LXX
> in the CrossWire (main) repository.
>
> ## Language:
> grc
>
> ## Description:
> Septuagint, Morphologically Tagged Rahlfs'
>
> ## Category:
> Biblical Text
>
> ## Version:
> This is an update. Version: 3.0
>
> ## What's new:
> : This version uses again Pierre build. It comes with small corrections in
> conf. According to MOD-415. The version grow to 3.0. We have also to decide
> what we want to do with the lex entries.
>
> Many thanks to Pierre_Amadio for the hard work.
>
> We wish you enjoyable reading,
> The Module Team
>
> P.S.: This email is sent automatically on upload of a new/updated module
>
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-- 

*Dr. Zoltán** Kovács, MSc*

Institut Ausbildung




*Private Pädagogische Hochschule der Diözese Linz*
*Private University of Education, Diocese Linz**Salesianumweg 3, 4020 Linz*
*Mail: zoltan.kov...@ph-linz.at *

*Web: www.ph-linz.at *
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[sword-devel] Module release: LXX

[domcox]

Dear All,

This is to announce that we have just now uploaded LXX
in the CrossWire (main) repository.

## Language:
grc

## Description:
Septuagint, Morphologically Tagged Rahlfs'

## Category:
Biblical Text

## Version:
This is an update. Version: 3.0

## What's new:
: This version uses again Pierre build. It comes with small corrections in 
conf. According to MOD-415. The version grow to 3.0. We have also to decide 
what we want to do with the lex entries.

Many thanks to Pierre_Amadio for the hard work.

We wish you enjoyable reading,
The Module Team

P.S.: This email is sent automatically on upload of a new/updated module

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