Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

On 12/11/23 5:47 PM, pinoaffe wrote:

First of all, the phrase "Words added for modern readers, where in the
original the meaning was implied", doesn't account for the case where
words were changed rather than added

In general, I think rephrasing these tooltips as full sentences would be
preferrable, e.g. something along the lines of

- (added) "These words were added in translation" or
- (added) "These words do not directly correspond to words in the source text"
- (amplified) "These words are amplifications of information in the source text"
- (changed) "These words were changed in translation"
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text are not present in the translation" 
or
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text do not directly correspond to any words 
in the translation"
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied by 
the source text" or
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied by 
(but not explicitly stated in) the source text"
- (moved) "These words were moved in translation" or
- (moved) "These words were in another location in the source text"
- (tense-change) "The gramatical tense of these words was changed in order to 
facilitate translation"


I have just changed 
 
the English text of the tooltips based on your suggestions.


These texts are the base for translations that are pending for the next 
release (in January).


Thank you once more for your help on this!

Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

Thanks for the feedback on this, David!

Best regards,
Tobias

On 12/12/23 9:00 AM, David Haslam wrote:

A bit of lateral thinking in this topic…

There’s no requirement that only whole words should be wrapped within 
a transChange element!
In some translations it’s not unusual for parts of words to be so 
marked. (eg. Spanish).


In some languages (eg Thai) one should also be aware that there are no 
spaces between words.
Determining word boundaries is not a straightforward task even for a 
computer.


And although SWORD renders in italics the text that’s marked with 
transChange, there are also writing systems (non-Roman scripts) for 
which there is no possibility to do this.


Best regards,

David

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 07:45, Tobias Klein  wrote:

On 12/11/23 5:47 PM, pinoaffe wrote:
>> Would you suggest to change any of these for making the tooltip easier
>> to read?
> First of all, the phrase "Words added for modern readers, where in the
> original the meaning was implied", doesn't account for the case where
> words were changed rather than added
>
> In general, I think rephrasing these tooltips as full sentences 
would be

> preferrable, e.g. something along the lines of
>
> - (added) "These words were added in translation" or
> - (added) "These words do not directly correspond to words in the 
source text"
> - (amplified) "These words are amplifications of information in the 
source text"

> - (changed) "These words were changed in translation"
> - (deleted) "Some words in the source text are not present in the 
translation" or
> - (deleted) "Some words in the source text do not directly 
correspond to any words in the translation"
> - (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate 
information implied by the source text" or
> - (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate 
information implied by (but not explicitly stated in) the source text"

> - (moved) "These words were moved in translation" or
> - (moved) "These words were in another location in the source text"
> - (tense-change) "The gramatical tense of these words was changed 
in order to facilitate translation"

>
>> This will then become the basis for translating the tooltip to 
other languages as well.
> I think that having full sentences helps convey the tooltip meaning 
more

> clearly and that such sentences are more easy to translate to other
> languages

Thank you, that's helpful feedback! I'll consider your suggestions and
update the English locale accordingly.

How about the grammatical number of the words in the transChange
element: In your proposals, the tooltips/explanations are all plural
("These words"). When I look at examples in the Bible text, though I
often see only one word that is italic. Should we have singular/plural
variants of the tooltips? It is possible to detect dynamically how many
words are in the transChange element and determine the right tooltip
accordingly.

Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[David Haslam]

A bit of lateral thinking in this topic…

There’s no requirement that only whole words should be wrapped within a 
transChange element!
In some translations it’s not unusual for parts of words to be so marked. (eg. 
Spanish).

In some languages (eg Thai) one should also be aware that there are no spaces 
between words.
Determining word boundaries is not a straightforward task even for a computer.

And although SWORD renders in italics the text that’s marked with transChange, 
there are also writing systems (non-Roman scripts) for which there is no 
possibility to do this.

Best regards,

David

On Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 07:45, Tobias Klein <[cont...@tklein.info](mailto:On 
Tue, Dec 12, 2023 at 07:45, Tobias Klein < wrote:

> On 12/11/23 5:47 PM, pinoaffe wrote:
>>> Would you suggest to change any of these for making the tooltip easier
>>> to read?
>> First of all, the phrase "Words added for modern readers, where in the
>> original the meaning was implied", doesn't account for the case where
>> words were changed rather than added
>>
>> In general, I think rephrasing these tooltips as full sentences would be
>> preferrable, e.g. something along the lines of
>>
>> - (added) "These words were added in translation" or
>> - (added) "These words do not directly correspond to words in the source 
>> text"
>> - (amplified) "These words are amplifications of information in the source 
>> text"
>> - (changed) "These words were changed in translation"
>> - (deleted) "Some words in the source text are not present in the 
>> translation" or
>> - (deleted) "Some words in the source text do not directly correspond to any 
>> words in the translation"
>> - (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information 
>> implied by the source text" or
>> - (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information 
>> implied by (but not explicitly stated in) the source text"
>> - (moved) "These words were moved in translation" or
>> - (moved) "These words were in another location in the source text"
>> - (tense-change) "The gramatical tense of these words was changed in order 
>> to facilitate translation"
>>
>>> This will then become the basis for translating the tooltip to other 
>>> languages as well.
>> I think that having full sentences helps convey the tooltip meaning more
>> clearly and that such sentences are more easy to translate to other
>> languages
>
> Thank you, that's helpful feedback! I'll consider your suggestions and
> update the English locale accordingly.
>
> How about the grammatical number of the words in the transChange
> element: In your proposals, the tooltips/explanations are all plural
> ("These words"). When I look at examples in the Bible text, though I
> often see only one word that is italic. Should we have singular/plural
> variants of the tooltips? It is possible to detect dynamically how many
> words are in the transChange element and determine the right tooltip
> accordingly.
>
> Best regards,
> Tobias
>
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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

On 12/11/23 5:47 PM, pinoaffe wrote:

Would you suggest to change any of these for making the tooltip easier
to read?

First of all, the phrase "Words added for modern readers, where in the
original the meaning was implied", doesn't account for the case where
words were changed rather than added

In general, I think rephrasing these tooltips as full sentences would be
preferrable, e.g. something along the lines of

- (added) "These words were added in translation" or
- (added) "These words do not directly correspond to words in the source text"
- (amplified) "These words are amplifications of information in the source text"
- (changed) "These words were changed in translation"
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text are not present in the translation" 
or
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text do not directly correspond to any words 
in the translation"
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied by 
the source text" or
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied by 
(but not explicitly stated in) the source text"
- (moved) "These words were moved in translation" or
- (moved) "These words were in another location in the source text"
- (tense-change) "The gramatical tense of these words was changed in order to 
facilitate translation"


This will then become the basis for translating the tooltip to other languages 
as well.

I think that having full sentences helps convey the tooltip meaning more
clearly and that such sentences are more easy to translate to other
languages


Thank you, that's helpful feedback! I'll consider your suggestions and 
update the English locale accordingly.


How about the grammatical number of the words in the transChange 
element: In your proposals, the tooltips/explanations are all plural 
("These words"). When I look at examples in the Bible text, though I 
often see only one word that is italic. Should we have singular/plural 
variants of the tooltips? It is possible to detect dynamically how many 
words are in the transChange element and determine the right tooltip 
accordingly.


Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[pinoaffe]

(I am sending this mail for the second time, as it seems like my
previous attempt to send this mail failed due to a particular gmail
server being blocked by dnsbl.dronebl.org)

Michael H  writes:
>  (I wasn't at the OSIS formation conferences just worked with
>  Bible translators, so this is about the use of the word, and not
>  necessarily it's semantic meaning in OSIS.)
>
>  "-implied" falls between a literal (untagged) translation and an
>  "added" word.  It represents information that is based on words in
>  the original, that would have been obvious to the original reader,
>  but is specifically supplied for modern readers.
Thanks for the correction & clarification!


Tobias Klein  writes:
> So, I've implemented this just now. This is how it looks based on
> converting the type attribute to the title attribute using a localized
> text.
Cool!

> The localized texts are looking like this in the locale file now:
>
> "transchange" : {
>   "added" : "Words added",
>   "amplified" : "More than addition of words to smooth out a translation",
>   "changed" : "Words are changed in the translation, such as modern 
> spellings",
>   "deleted" : "Words that appear in the original but not in the 
> translation",
>   "implied" : "Words added for modern readers, where in the original the 
> meaning was implied",
>   "moved" : "Words that are moved to better represent the meaning of the 
> text being translated from their original order",
>   "tense-change": "Change of the tense from the original to one that 
> occurs in the translation language"
> }
>
> Would you suggest to change any of these for making the tooltip easier
> to read?
First of all, the phrase "Words added for modern readers, where in the
original the meaning was implied", doesn't account for the case where
words were changed rather than added

In general, I think rephrasing these tooltips as full sentences would be
preferrable, e.g. something along the lines of

- (added) "These words were added in translation" or
- (added) "These words do not directly correspond to words in the source text"
- (amplified) "These words are amplifications of information in the source text"
- (changed) "These words were changed in translation"
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text are not present in the translation" 
or
- (deleted) "Some words in the source text do not directly correspond to any 
words in the translation"
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied 
by the source text" or
- (implied) "These words were added or changed to translate information implied 
by (but not explicitly stated in) the source text"
- (moved) "These words were moved in translation" or
- (moved) "These words were in another location in the source text"
- (tense-change) "The gramatical tense of these words was changed in order to 
facilitate translation"

> This will then become the basis for translating the tooltip to other 
> languages as well.
I think that having full sentences helps convey the tooltip meaning more
clearly and that such sentences are more easy to translate to other
languages

Kind regards,
pinoaffe
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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Michael H]

(I wasn't at the OSIS formation conferences just worked with Bible
translators, so this is about the use of the word, and not necessarily it's
semantic meaning in OSIS.)

"-implied" falls between  a literal (untagged) translation and an "added"
word.  It represents information that is based on words in the original,
that would have been obvious to the original reader, but is specifically
supplied for modern readers.

So for example, In translations that capitalize pronouns "he" when they
refer to part of the Trinity, "-implied" might be used to cover the
capitalization, especially when the reference is not clear to everyone.
The editorial decision is made to "capitalize", but then you get down into
the specifics, and there are places where you can read those pronouns
multiple ways, and various people in the past have already made different
decisions. You have to put a He or a he, and make a choice... but where its
not 100%, maybe adding that tag provides guidance later.  Or in
translations that diminish the use of pronouns and replace them with the
person's name... 'implied' covers this transformation. The words in the
target language come from a word in the original, but more information is
present in the target language at that specific point than was originally
written.

And that's just pronouns.  Any word can have implied information added to
it.

On Fri, Dec 8, 2023 at 5:42 AM pinoaffe  wrote:

>
> Tobias Klein  writes:
> > So there is another element mentioned in the list on page 85 of the OSIS
> User Manual.
> > The element is implied - what's the meaning of that? The explanation
> > for that element is missing.
>
> I think that that is for marking words that don't have a literal
> corresponding word in the greek/hebrew, but which don't carry any
> additional meaning compared to the original text, as the meaning they
> carry is implied gramatically or from context.
>
> e.g., one could turn the sentence
>
> It was tall and blue.
>
> into
>
> It was tall and it wasblue
>
> This example is of course a bit contrived, but such changes can be
> necessary when translating, and there may be cases where they are less
> obvious
>
> Kind regards,
> pinoaffe
>
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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[pinoaffe]

Tobias Klein  writes:
> So there is another element mentioned in the list on page 85 of the OSIS User 
> Manual.
> The element is implied - what's the meaning of that? The explanation
> for that element is missing.

I think that that is for marking words that don't have a literal
corresponding word in the greek/hebrew, but which don't carry any
additional meaning compared to the original text, as the meaning they
carry is implied gramatically or from context.

e.g., one could turn the sentence

It was tall and blue.

into

It was tall and it wasblue

This example is of course a bit contrived, but such changes can be
necessary when translating, and there may be cases where they are less
obvious

Kind regards,
pinoaffe

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

On 12/8/23 8:27 AM, Tobias Klein wrote:

On 12/7/23 10:34 AM, pinoaffe wrote:

I was wondering what are the different types? I did not find an
exhaustive list.

There's a list on page 122 of the OSIS 2.1.1 User Manual, see below:

- *added*: Words added.
- *amplified*: More than addition of words to smooth out a translation.
- *changed*: Words are changed in the translation, such as modern 
spellings.
- *deleted*: Words that appear in the original but not in the 
translation.
- *moved*: Words that are moved to better represent the meaning of 
the text

 being translated from their original order.
- *tenseChange*: Indicates a change of the tense from the original to 
one

 that occurs in the translation language.

also, creators of OSIS documents can of course introduce their own types
prefixed with "x-" such as "x-spellingCorrection" or anything else.


So there is another element mentioned in the list on page 85 of the OSIS 
User Manual.


The element is /implied/ - what's the meaning of that? The explanation 
for that element is missing.


Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

On 12/7/23 10:34 AM, pinoaffe wrote:

I was wondering what are the different types? I did not find an
exhaustive list.

There's a list on page 122 of the OSIS 2.1.1 User Manual, see below:

- *added*: Words added.
- *amplified*: More than addition of words to smooth out a translation.
- *changed*: Words are changed in the translation, such as modern spellings.
- *deleted*: Words that appear in the original but not in the translation.
- *moved*: Words that are moved to better represent the meaning of the text
 being translated from their original order.
- *tenseChange*: Indicates a change of the tense from the original to one
 that occurs in the translation language.

also, creators of OSIS documents can of course introduce their own types
prefixed with "x-" such as "x-spellingCorrection" or anything else.



Thank you! That's very helpful :)

Best regards,
Tobias

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Re: [sword-devel] transChange element

[pinoaffe]

Hi,

Tobias Klein  writes:
> I am planning to turn the meta data of the transChange element into
> user-readable information (see ezra-bible-app #972).
Cool!

> I was wondering what are the different types? I did not find an
> exhaustive list.
There's a list on page 122 of the OSIS 2.1.1 User Manual, see below:

- *added*: Words added.
- *amplified*: More than addition of words to smooth out a translation.
- *changed*: Words are changed in the translation, such as modern spellings.
- *deleted*: Words that appear in the original but not in the translation.
- *moved*: Words that are moved to better represent the meaning of the text
being translated from their original order.
- *tenseChange*: Indicates a change of the tense from the original to one
that occurs in the translation language.

also, creators of OSIS documents can of course introduce their own types
prefixed with "x-" such as "x-spellingCorrection" or anything else.

> These are the types I discovered:
>
> - added
> - deleted
> - tenseChange
>
> Are there any others?

Yup :)

Kind regards,
pinoaffe
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[sword-devel] transChange element

[Tobias Klein]

Hi all,

I am planning to turn the meta data of the transChange element into 
user-readable information (see ezra-bible-app #972 
).


I was wondering what are the different types? I did not find an 
exhaustive list.


These are the types I discovered:

- added
- deleted
- tenseChange

Are there any others?

I would add user-readable explanations into the locales and this could 
then also be translated in the different UI languages.


Best regards,
Tobias

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