RE: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow
ESPN does have a statistician...Carol Lewis. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow Did anyone else notice that last night on ESPN2 they listed Broe's PR to be 3:14 and still had Mark Nenow as the AR holder in the 10k? Don't they have statisticians over there? In all, though, I would have to say I was pleased with the coverage. They showed most of the steeple and at least 1/2 of the 10k. Not too bad. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow
According to Track and Field News, the Bible of the Sport ;-) , Meb's 27:13 is pending, so that officially Nenow is still the record holder; if you want to be hair splitting about it. Steve ps ESPN2 could have at least mentioned the new mark awaiting certification, though. At 10:01 AM 8/9/01 -0400, malmo wrote: ESPN does have a statistician...Carol Lewis. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow Did anyone else notice that last night on ESPN2 they listed Broe's PR to be 3:14 and still had Mark Nenow as the AR holder in the 10k? Don't they have statisticians over there? In all, though, I would have to say I was pleased with the coverage. They showed most of the steeple and at least 1/2 of the 10k. Not too bad. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- Steve Grathwohl Duke Mathematical Journal [EMAIL PROTECTED] * +001 919-687-3634 * fax: +001 919-688-5595 http://www.dukemathjournal.org
Re: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow
In a message dated 8/9/01 9:48:15 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did anyone else notice that last night on ESPN2 they listed Broe's PR to be 3:14 and still had Mark Nenow as the AR holder in the 10k? Ouch! That never should have happened, but sometimes a bad stat (or two) gets by when people are working 15-hour(or more) days at a meet such as this(and Meb was given credit as the record holder during the race). And I would humbly suggest that the combined knowledge and experience of the stats people who are working on the Worlds is of the highest order. Walt Murphy Chief statistician, cook, and bottle washer on most American TV broadcasts
Re: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow
In a message dated 8/9/01 10:43:46 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: According to Track and Field News, the Bible of the Sport ;-) , Meb's 27:13 is pending, so that officially Nenow is still the record holder; if you want to be hair splitting about it. Since most pending marks are later approved, they are always (well, almost always) listed as the current record. Walt Murphy
RE: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow
It seems that Dragila's 15-9 1/4 is technically still a pending record as well as any other of her 2001 marks. I didn't see TV coverage of women's pole vault, but I'd be willing to bet WR and AR if cited wasn't her 15 2 1/4 at the end of 2000. -Original Message- From: Steve Grathwohl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 10:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow According to Track and Field News, the Bible of the Sport ;-) , Meb's 27:13 is pending, so that officially Nenow is still the record holder; if you want to be hair splitting about it. Steve ps ESPN2 could have at least mentioned the new mark awaiting certification, though. At 10:01 AM 8/9/01 -0400, malmo wrote: ESPN does have a statistician...Carol Lewis. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Contopoulos Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 3:14 and Mark Nenow Did anyone else notice that last night on ESPN2 they listed Broe's PR to be 3:14 and still had Mark Nenow as the AR holder in the 10k? Don't they have statisticians over there? In all, though, I would have to say I was pleased with the coverage. They showed most of the steeple and at least 1/2 of the 10k. Not too bad. M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- Steve Grathwohl Duke Mathematical Journal [EMAIL PROTECTED] * +001 919-687-3634 * fax: +001 919-688-5595 http://www.dukemathjournal.org
t-and-f: Re: The Worlds: pole vault qualifying and announcing
In a message dated 8/8/01 17:28:27, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BTW: I really do like the announcing, commentary and interviews of Mr. Hill, Mr. Ridgeon (the former hurdler, indeed) and company in the stadium. Knowledgeable, to the point, alert to recent developments and - possibly important - quite when they need to. Even though I heard some Europeans being express criticism on the somewhat Dragily-oriented commentary in the pole vault competition (;-) - to be honest: I did not realise that until they told me. the vault commentary was definitely Dragila-oriented in the early going, just as last night's men's discus was slanted towards 4x world champ Lars Riedel going for his fifth. As the WR holder, Stacy was the star of the show, and I pumped her for all she was worth. And I'll continue to announce in that style. When it came down to just Dragila vs. Feofanova, however, I made a conscious decision that the announcer should not be doing anything to influence the outcome of the competition, so the aim was to produce an even approach. Two things worked against this, however. The first is that every time the bar was raised to a new height, to continue the sense of drama that the plot-line required, the scene needed to be reset. With Dragila first in the order (luck of the draw), the resetting of the scene then segued directly into her vault, which meant that her intro each time was longer than it seemed. The second thing conspiring against Feofanova was some unfortunate timing. On many of her jumps, she came up at a time when there was either race action going on or the scoreboards were devoted to some information-dispensing task (and the in-stadium producers are very strict about how much air-time can be devoted to field coverage at these points). I was very cognizant of that at the time, but could do nothing about it. Similarly, if there are rival Canadian high jump camps, I suspect the Kwaku Boateng group thinks I love Mark Boswell and hate Boateng after last night. I think it was the first three times that Boateng came up that his approach was stopped because of an impending race (nothing like contesting a high jump that uses the track as part of the runup while a sequence of 200 races is using the same piece of real estate--doh!). Boswell, on the other hand, came up in clean situations nearly every jump, and was a far greater beneficiary of my bombasticity. gh
t-and-f: Malcolm scents 200 metres medal
The Electronic Telegraph Thursday 9 August 2001 CHRISTIAN MALCOLM carries British medal hopes into the final of tonight's 200 metres at the World Championships in Edmonton. The 22-year-old overhauled Linford Christie to become the second fastest Brit of all-time after carving another 0.05 seconds off the record he set in the second round. Malcolm clocked 20.08 to reach the final where Greece's surprise Olympic champion Konstadinos Kederis - fastest in 20.02 - will be his biggest threat to his gold medal ambitions. The Newport sprinter will be joined in the final by Coventry's Marlon Devonish while Chris Rawlinson boosted British medal hopes by cruising into tomorrow's final of the 400m hurdles. It's great to set two personal bests but I am feeling smashed now, admitted Malcolm, who was seventh in the 100m final earlier in the championships. I have just got to keep on telling myself it's just one more race now. Reaching the final at the Olympics has given me a lot more experience. I know how to approach championships. I was one of the outsiders last year but I will be one of the favourites this time so I will just have to keep my focus and hopefully come away with something. Devonish - who beat Malcolm to win the world trials in Birmingham - clocked a season's best of 20.29secs when finishing fourth in the semi won by Kederis. Rawlinson also clocked a season's best of 48.27secs as he cantered to victory having seen his medal hopes boosted with America's Olympic champion Angelo Taylor failing to qualify after clattering a hurdle. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
t-and-f: Re: Pettigrew - splits?
I agree completely with Byron, moreover I suspect he went out plenty fast (except for his disappointing start reaction). I'll bet his first 200 was faster than his 2nd which would suggest that he ran smartest of all since he would have slowed down the least (i.e.come closest to his maximum potential on the day). Geoff Pietsch From: Byron Dyce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Byron Dyce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Xerox Athletes of the Day Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 17:35:13 -0400 I believe it's time to stop the Pettigrew bashing. The guy is 33 years old, has enjoyed a very long career, I believe ran a seasonal PR, and is the only male American to get to the finals. I am also sure that he ran the race that he thought would serve him best, even if you don't agree with it, and it didn't get him a medal. Give him some kudos. Byron Dyce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe that Pettigrew should have been awarded a citation for the mis- performance of the day... UG -- Quoting Erik van Leeuwen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Must be a milestone in US tf history to award a 4th place on the men's 400. (looking at his reaction time, I had a totally different award in mind...) Erik (these days aka Erki) - Original Message - From: Charles F Wandler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Listproc: UORE_TF [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 10:41 AM Subject: t-and-f: USATF Release: Xerox Athletes of the Day From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 00:08:10 EDT Subject: USATF Release: Xerox Athletes of the Day To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For their performances at Monday's session of the World Track Field Championships, Stacy Dragila and Antonio Pettigrew have been named the Xerox Athletes of the Day. Dragila won her second consecutive World title, while Pettigrew placed fourth in the 400 meters. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago,² he added modestly. Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. Certainly, Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it can¹t change the hard reality that Britain¹s middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South AmericaNorthern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coe¹s best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who destroyed Coe¹s long-held 800-metre record in 1997. I lived right next door to school, he laughs. I walked, nice and slow. The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among world champion wannabees in Britain and Europe. The explanation for African domination of running, it turns out, can be found mostly in the genes. ³Africans are naturally, genetically, more likely to have less body fat, which is a critical edge in elite running,² notes Joseph Graves, Jr., an African American evolutionary biologist at Arizona State University. Evolution has shaped body types and in part athletic possibilities. Don¹t expect an Eskimo to show up on an NBA court or a Watusi to win the world weightlifting championship. Differences don¹t necessarily correlate with skin color, but rather with geography and climate. Genes play a major role in
Re: t-and-f: Felix Sanchez as American as they come
In a message dated 8/9/01 2:38:44 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sanchez is the only American in the 400 hurdles final, and yet nobody on the broadcast team -- not even Dwight or Larry, the usually astute pros -- took note of that I really don't have time to answer every criticism of the broadcasts, but I'll make an exception for this one. But first, let me thank Ken Stone for providing all of that wonderful information on Felix Sanchez...how could I have missed all of that after covering Sanchez during his years at USC? (I hope you all can picture my tongue planted firmly in cheek). This was a semi-final, and the big news was not Sanchez, but that the U.S. was shut out of the final in this event for the first time in World and Olympic history. The Sanchez story will be told before tomorrow's final. (And please, Ken, don't take credit for alerting us to his story). Walt Murphy
t-and-f: TV coverage
I guess the TV coverage is not too bad for American TV, but it's still quite poor. The meet started at 8 pm EDT. ESPN came on at 1 am -- a five hour delay. Australian TV again showed the whole meet live. The entire high jump. The entire 10K. I guess ESPN didn't want to pre-empt their Wednesday Night Baseball telecasts. Well, in 2003, the WC from Paris will be available to be shown live in the US in the morning hours. What will ESPN do then? Live athletics from Paris or their endless repeats of the previous night's Sportscenter? SGMW --- Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In all, though, I would have to say I was pleased with the coverage. They showed most of the steeple and at least 1/2 of the 10k. Not too bad. __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Felix Sanchez as American as they come
Please, spare us -- let's hope this story doesn't mean an up close and personal. SGMW --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Sanchez story will be told before tomorrow's final. (And please, Ken, don't take credit for alerting us to his story). __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: Drugs are talk of the town
The Irish Times Thursday, August 09, 2001 Ian O'Riordan Yet more talk of the lab rather than the track surfaced in Edmonton yesterday. The plot surrounding Russian distant runner Olga Yegorova thickened further, the fate of 800-metre contender Fabiane Dos Santos was decided forever, and the Canadians were again trying to clean up their image after 34-year-old sprinter Venolyn Clarke was caught taking the same drug as Ben Johnson. While the word is that Yegorova may yet have to sit out the 5,000 metres, Dos Santos is definitely out of the 800 metres. She had become one of the pre-race favourites after winning in London the week before Edmonton but the Brazilian federation then quietly announced that the test done on her after the Rio Grand Prix on May 6th showed illegal levels of testosterone. Under the IAAF two-strike rule, the 25-year-old now gets banned for life because of a previous doping offence back in 1995. Dos Santos was given 48 hours to give her side of the story and apparently confessed to drug use. She lives and trains in Spain and, aware of her fate, did not travel to Canada for the championships. The case of Yegorova may not be decided until hours before she lines up for the 5,000 metre heats later today. According to some sources in Edmonton yesterday, Yegorova is about to be re-suspended for using the blood-boosting EPO having been reinstated last week despite evidence of the illegal drug in her system after the Paris meeting last month. The official IAAF statement claims that 50 athletes have so far been tested for EPO just before and during the championships, and Yegorova was one of them. According to IAAF vice-president Arne Ljungqvist, about 10 of those tests, including Yegorova, show red blood cell outside normal parameters. You can get these abnormal concentrations for other reasons, he said. These are borderline values and we must make sure with further tests on the athletes' urine samples. The announcement of those results are expected anytime between now and the start of the race, but Ljungqvist also stated that other athletes shouldn't be concerned if Yegorova tests negative because it would mean the drugs advantage would have worn off. Gabriela Szabo though has decided to drop her threat of a boycott and attempt to add the 5,000 metre gold to the 1,500 she won on Tuesday night. Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Book sales down again Jon? Alan From: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jon Entine [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Track and Field List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:45:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id MHotMailBD3C26A300C5400438A180DF8E0DF21C0; Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:51:25 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) id f79ImTe23958for t-and-f-outgoing; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.10.1/8.10.1) with ESMTP id f79ImR023935for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.2] (hsa043.pool011.at001.earthlink.net [216.249.74.43])by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19948for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:48:24 -0700 (PDT) From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:52:07 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/9.0.2509 Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by darkwing.uoregon.edu id f79ImR023937 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago,² he added modestly. Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. Certainly, Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it can¹t change the hard reality that Britain¹s middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South AmericaNorthern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coe¹s best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM To: Track and Field List Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the men¹s 1500 metre final at Sunday¹s World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the world¹s dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ³So where is the problem?² wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ³The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands¹ run faster.² Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ³brutal² commitment of days gone by ³the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago,² he added modestly. Here¹s a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts what¹s behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, they¹d challenge for gold. Certainly, Coe¹s 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britain¹s reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didn¹t compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it can¹t change the hard reality that Britain¹s middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more levelrunning is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South AmericaNorthern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coe¹s best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliott¹s stands at 45, Cram¹s at 67, and Ovett¹s at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coe¹s whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who destroyed Coe¹s long-held 800-metre record in 1997. I lived right next door to school, he laughs. I walked, nice and slow. The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get along on less than thirty. ³Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world,² notes Colm O¹Connell, coach at St. Patrick¹s Iten, the famous private school and running factory in the valley that turned out Kipketer and other Kenyan greats. O¹Connell eschews the mega-training so common among world champion wannabees in Britain and Europe. The explanation for African domination of running, it turns out, can be
Re: t-and-f: Felix Sanchez as American as they come
In a message dated 8/9/01 3:37:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Please, spare us -- let's hope this story doesn't mean an up close and personal. Have no fear...there will be no up close and personal on Sanchez. WM
Re: t-and-f: Drugs are talk of the town
The announcement of those results are expected anytime between now and the start of the race, but Ljungqvist also stated that other athletes shouldn't be concerned if Yegorova tests negative because it would mean the drugs advantage would have worn off. Wouldn't the added fitness from a year's (or many year's) worth of training on EPO make her physically more fit than her rivals. She wouldn't lose those gains, correct? M _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Jon Entine wrote: Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. Jon, how did West African genes get to the Ukraine and East African genes get to Switzerland? -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Malmo: You are an angry person... Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and unequivocally. How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have to deal with in the confessional both. On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM To: Track and Field List Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at Sundays World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the worlds dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ½So where is the problem? wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ½The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands - run faster. Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ½brutal commitment of days gone by - ½the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago, he added modestly. Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, theyd challenge for gold. Certainly, Coes 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britains reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didnt compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it cant change the hard reality that Britains middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more level-running is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South America-Northern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coes best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliotts stands at 45, Crams at 67, and Ovetts at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coes whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly laughs from Wilson Kipketer, who destroyed Coes long-held 800-metre record in 1997. I lived right next door to school, he laughs. I walked, nice and slow. The reality is that for every Kenyan monster-miler putting in 100-mile weeks, there are others, like Kipketer, who get along on less than thirty. ½Training regimens are as varied in Kenya as any where in the world, notes Colm OConnell, coach at St. Patricks Iten, the famous private
Re: t-and-f: Drugs are talk of the town
The announcement of those results are expected anytime between now and the start of the race, but Ljungqvist also stated that other athletes shouldn't be concerned if Yegorova tests negative because it would mean the drugs advantage would have worn off. Wouldn't the added fitness from a year's (or many year's) worth of training on EPO make her physically more fit than her rivals. She wouldn't lose those gains, correct? I was wondering about that myself. More importantly, however, is how this is yet another example of the IAAF trying to spin everything they do. If you use this logic, we shouldn't bother suspending anyone for any longer than it takes to get out of their system! I have heard some conflicting stuff and I don't assume I have heard the complete truth, but it appears that this is a perfect example of how keeping things quiet until adjudication is complete (the way U.S. law would imply it should be done) would have been in everyone's best interests. If her initial tests were done improperly, which is what it sounds like, then it is the same as if she's tested negative and we shouldn't even have heard about it other than as a statistic involving the number of tests done improperly. If she now has another test that MIGHT be a failure, we shouldn't hear about it until it can be concluded one way or the other. This circus helps no one. Now perhaps it was leak that started this whole thing, and of course there will always be leaks, but even if that is the case, this really highlights the weakness in the way the IAAF operates drug testing. - Ed Parrot
FW: t-and-f: Drugs are talk of the town
The official IAAF statement claims that 50 athletes have so far been tested for EPO just before and during the championships, and Yegorova was one of them. According to IAAF vice-president Arne Ljungqvist, about 10 of those tests, including Yegorova, show red blood cell outside normal parameters. You can get these abnormal concentrations for other reasons, he said. These are borderline values and we must make sure with further tests on the athletes' urine samples. Do not hold your breath for any convictions following this system. There was a TV program in Australia last year that explained the effectiveness of these tests. The blood test developed by Australian scientists has a deterction window of maybe 6 weeks. The other test on Urine only 3 days!!! , This means there will be many positives in the blood test but almost zero ever in the urine test. You could bet money that none of the 50 will be caught on the Urine test. Almost certainly Yegorova if guilty would have had another course of EPO since Paris. The test is a dud in reality. This is what the TV program claimed anyway. The blood test on its own should stand. regards Steve Bennett Sydney, Australia
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
GRRR! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 4:06 PM To: malmo; Track and Field List Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Malmo: You are an angry person... Except the sprint results certainly do reflect, without question, the underlying bio-genetic reality. Absolutely and unequivocally. How you can turn science into bigotry is an issue you'll have to deal with in the confessional both. On 8/9/01 12:43 PM, malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guessed that because the sprints aren't complying with Entine's bigoted views he'd focus on the 1500. Nothing new, the same tired, old sh!t. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jon Entine Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 2:46 PM To: Track and Field List Subject: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running Thought this would provoke the usual outrage. If anyone wants to print this unpublished article, or reproduce it on a website, please send me a note. I will be most obliging. ** 9 August 2001 The End of the British Empire: Why a Brit (Black or White) Will Never Again Hold a Distance Running Record By Jon Entine When the gun goes off for the mens 1500 metre final at Sundays World Championships in Edmonton, it might just as well signal the end of an era. The age of great British middle distance runners is gone forever. Once the worlds dominant power, with a bloodline of Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett, Steve Cram, and Peter Elliott that regularly left competitors in the dust, the British hopefuls are today mere also-rans in a field dominated by North and East Africans. The collapse of the once mighty British Empire is actually part of a more sweeping trend. Where Brits, Aussies and others of Northern European stock used to dominate distance running, former greats such as Steve Cram and Sebastian Coe now indulge in British bashing. ½So where is the problem? wrote Coe last week in the Telegraph. . ½The answer, I rather fancy, as Shakespeare said, lies not in the stars but in our hands - run faster. Coe went on to exhort aspiring Brits to train with the ½brutal commitment of days gone by - ½the mental and physical intensity of what was commonplace 20 years ago, he added modestly. Heres a wake-up call: you might as well look to the stars, because distance runners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, will never reclaim the mantle as world's best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. The world rankings, which combine race results from the 800 metres to the marathon, paint a stark picture. Africans, eight from Kenya, hold the top 10 places. Among the women, the top 3 and 7-out-of-10 are Kenyan. However, because of social taboos against women runners in Africa, non-Africans remain somewhat more competitive. If you ask self-proclaimed experts whats behind this extraordinary phenomenon, be prepared for the usual cliché: the current crop of British athletes is too soft. If they just tried harder, theyd challenge for gold. Certainly, Coes 1981 800-metre run in Stockholm ranks as one of the great all-time performances. But a look at the all time list of 800 metre runs makes it clear that Britains reign as middle distance champion (and prior periods of domination by the Finns and other Northern Europeans) speaks mostly to the fact that for the most part Africans didnt compete. While nationalistic chest pounding may help deal with frustration of fading glory, it cant change the hard reality that Britains middle distance running glory is gone for good, whatever training methods might be adopted. Now that the playing field is more level-running is a worldwide sport, drawing competitors from Africa, Asia and South America-Northern Europeans are decidedly second-class. Consider the list of all time top 800 meter runs and runners. While Coes best time ranks third on the all time list, Elliotts stands at 45, Crams at 67, and Ovetts at 341. On a regular basis, none could expect to challenge the current world record holder, Kenyan Wilson Kipketer, who has 28 times in the top 100. Other Kenyan runners bring the total in the top 100 to fifty. Overall, athletes of African ancestry hold 92 of the top 100 times, with Northern Europeans holding but eight. What about Coes whine that British runners could transform themselves from joggers into champions if only they paid they mimicked the Kenyans. As the myth goes, Kenyans are great because they ran to school as kids and torture themselves in practice. That brings belly
t-and-f: What Happened to the 200 meters ??
A year and a half ago we were looking at the men's 200 as perhaps the most exciting race of the Olympic games .. With a potential final of Mo Greene, Michael Johnson, Ato Boldon, Frank Fredericks, Francis Obikwelu, Claudinei da Silva, Marcin Urbas, and John Capel all of whom had run sub 20.00 within the past year the hype began early in the year .. The tet a tet between Greene and Johnson only heightened the anticipation .. Then came the US Trials and the wheels began to fall off the truck .. And haven't been seen since .. Greene and Johnson injured at the trials .. Fredericks needing surgery earlier and not recuperating in time .. Obikwelu and da Silva far from form and not recovering to this day .. Urbas never being able to reproduce his one stunning performance .. And Capel being done in by judgment twice - in the blocks at the games and then in choosing football as a career move later .. Boldon showed up in Sydney but didn't in the final and hasn't been back to form since .. What we have left in these games are a group of sprinters who 18 months ago would have had to fight for good lane draws in the semis .. Where once we envisioned finals with 8 sub 20 men in the field we now wonder if anyone is capable of the mark .. Anyone have any idea where then next great 200 man is ?? Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Ed, I think the meaningful part applies to the notion that British athletes should train harder as Coe suggests in order to beat the Africans. If the reason for training harder is solely to beat the Africans then the numbers Entine quotes are meaningful, but if the reason for a Brit to train harder is to beat the other Brits then the statistically significant numbers are not meaningful since they would not change the behavior of the Brit trying to beat all the other Brits. Tom Derderian, the fastest 52 year-old Armenian middle distance runner in the world (it IS my genetics)...most Armenians are much better weight lifters or wrestlers. I am a genetic freak among my people, an outlier. - Original Message - From: Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running We are talking population genetics. When 7 percent of the world's population holds 98 percent of the top times in sprinting, and 5 percent holds more than 70 percent of the top endurance times, it is meaningful. statistically significant, yes. meaningful? I have yet to be convinced it means anything important. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
-- Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And jon-boy, for every 10 black kids that sprint, probably 1 white kid sprints... because of a$$'s like yourself who discourage them. Nah, you'll have to do better than that. There's no question that there is somewhat of a reverse discrimination against whites when it comes to sprinting, but I very much doubt there are 10x as many black kids sprinting. From what I've been associated with, and from watching things like local state/district meets, I'd say it's at worst 50/50, with probably a majority of white kids participating. (I've lived in and attended both predominately black and white neighborhoods/schools.) The perception that many more black kids participate is probably due to what we see at the more elite levels, which only serves to support Jon's point that you are so vehemently disagreeing with. I love irony. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Tom D. wrote: I think the meaningful part applies to the notion that British athletes should train harder as Coe suggests in order to beat the Africans. If the reason for training harder is solely to beat the Africans then the numbers Entine quotes are meaningful, but if the reason for a Brit to train harder is to beat the other Brits then the statistically significant numbers are not meaningful since they would not change the behavior of the Brit trying to beat all the other Brits. I still don't see how the Brits or Americans training harder to beat the Africans makes either statistical correlations or even genetic/sociological facts meaningful to athletes and coaches. Anytime an individual or group has come along and dominated an event, the rest of the world tries to learn from them and adjust their training/focus accordingly. Even if every runner in the world accepts that the Africans have a genetic advantage, so what? How does that have any meaning. This was my only complaint last time this thread came up and I still haven't heard anything to convince me that this research is anything more than just an interesting academic excercise. - ed Parrot
t-and-f: What in the world happened?
Okay, All I have is the agate on the IAAF/Edmonton web site- 42 women started the 20K Walk, and FIFTEEN OF THEM got disqualified!!! Is that a new record or something? More than a third of the field. [I haven't seen the TV- just got home from a parent's planning meeting for a H.S. team XC training camp at Mammoth Lakes next week (my son- 10th grade). yes, HS teams get in their August altitude training camp these days- in my day, a High School August meant pounding through miles of sand through the Florida orange groves in the area I lived, along with occasional beach races ] Back to the walk- one of those DQ'd was Michelle Rohl. Fill us in Mike- what happened? Outrageous judging? A third of the field took a wrong turn and got accused of cutting the course? RT
t-and-f: American Sprinters Mysteriously Vanish
It's probably just coincidence, but I wonder if the second-coming of U.S. distance running is connected in any way with the demise of U.S. sprinting. They probably don't have anything to do with each other, but the timing is an odd coincidence. Also, of course, we're talking two different levels- international elite sprinting versus emerging national-class distance runners. For the last two or three decades, even in an OFF year, the U.S. could always come up with SOMEBODY who went sub-20 at least once during the year. Kenderis hasn't done anything spectacular- it's just that the best of the rest of the world have dramatically fallen off. Kenderis is running about the same times as most European champions have run for the last 30 years- very similar, in fact, to Borzov in '71-'72. The U.S. saw the same phenomenon happen to their performances in the 400 this year, and no Americans made the finals in the 400H either (although a hit 10th hurdle might be to blame a little bit) At least Johnson came through in the 110H, and Greene and the other Americans came through at Edmonton, although their times left me wondering earlier this year on the tour. I guess it's the long sprints that went bust this year. Where have the sprinters gone? Has the unattractiveness of the sport in the U.S. finally worked its way into the sprint ranks- natural talent now wants to do something different? Or did the long career of Michael Johnson at the top at both 200 and 400 cause a generation of high calibre sprinters to move to other events in their search for green pastures? That same impact hasn't been seen with the women- just the men; although the women never performed as well as the U.S. men on the international level in the long sprints, with a few notable exceptions of course. Maybe all those genes from West African roots have finally got damaged by global warming or something. Does global warming only effect men? BTW, anybody know what happened to Meb in the 10K? RT
RE: t-and-f: The End of the British Rule in Running
Dan, you live in Oregon. There aren't 50 black kids in the entire state! malmo Nah, you'll have to do better than that. There's no question that there is somewhat of a reverse discrimination against whites when it comes to sprinting, but I very much doubt there are 10x as many black kids sprinting. From what I've been associated with, and from watching things like local state/district meets, I'd say it's at worst 50/50, with probably a majority of white kids participating. (I've lived in and attended both predominately black and white neighborhoods/schools.) The perception that many more black kids participate is probably due to what we see at the more elite levels, which only serves to support Jon's point that you are so vehemently disagreeing with. I love irony. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
RE: t-and-f: blacks in oregon
--- malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dan, you live in Oregon. There aren't 50 black kids in the entire state! I've shared a class room with more than that. That does bring up a point that I omitted in the previous post, though. The only time I've seen as many or more blacks sprinting at non-elite levels (which requires the ability to have gotten there, which, er, colors the issue) is in neighborhoods with significantly more blacks than whites. Otherwise, it seems to be relatively proportional. At least, much more so than many would like to believe. Dan Nah, you'll have to do better than that. There's no question that there is somewhat of a reverse discrimination against whites when it comes to sprinting, but I very much doubt there are 10x as many black kids sprinting. From what I've been associated with, and from watching things like local state/district meets, I'd say it's at worst 50/50, with probably a majority of white kids participating. (I've lived in and attended both predominately black and white neighborhoods/schools.) The perception that many more black kids participate is probably due to what we see at the more elite levels, which only serves to support Jon's point that you are so vehemently disagreeing with. I love irony. Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: What in the world happened?
Netters This is going to both the TF list and the race walk list. For those on the racewalk list Randy Treadway is a I-friend of mine. He wrote: Okay, All I have is the agate on the IAAF/Edmonton web site- 42 women started the 20K Walk, and FIFTEEN OF THEM got disqualified!!! Snip Back to the walk- one of those DQ'd was Michelle Rohl. Fill us in Mike- what happened? Outrageous judging? Well it could have been very strict judging. Outrageous could be the word used but honestly I just don't know. Michelle has a bad habit of not calling me while away - especially when something bad happens. I will say this though, for certain reasons, I had thought Michelle might be off her game a bit but we have to get some tests done first. She will be home tommorrow and when I get a report I'll let you know. Interestingly the last time Michelle got DQed was May of 98 in her first 20k. Since that time she has done a great deal of technique work and hasn't had any problems, including a world cup and the Olympics. But as I have always said, walking is a tricky event, you have to have be right on to get it right - just imagine hitting that long jump board every step. A third of the field took a wrong turn and got accused of cutting the course? Don't we wish. Talk to you all tommorrow morning. Mike
