t-and-f: Mouaziz to face elite world field
The Electronic Telegraph Wednesday 14 November 2001 Tom Knight EVERY year they claim it is the best ever but, for the 2002 event, the organisers of the London Marathon have probably got it right with their line-up for the men's race. With Haile Gebrselassie, the Olympic 10,000 metres champion, already confirmed to make his marathon debut in London on April 14, David Bedford, the race director, yesterday added the world record holder, the defending champion and the winner of last week's New York event. Khalid Khannouchi, the former Moroccan who is now an American citizen, set the world's best time of 2hr 5min 42sec two years ago in Chicago. He returns to the capital after finishing third in 2000. Also back in town will be Abdelkader El Mouaziz, last year's champion, and Antonio Pinto, the three-time winner from Portugal. Tesfaye Jifar, the Ethiopian who gave New York their first course record for 12 years, is joined on the start line by his compatriot Tesfaye Tola, the Olympic bronze medallist in Sydney. Gebrselassie faces the tantalising prospect of racing against Paul Tergat, the Kenyan with whom he fought so many titanic battles on the track. Tergat also chose London for his first marathon last year, when he finished second in 2hr 8min 15sec. Bedford said: "Haile said last week he wanted to run against the best marathoners in the world. He will. He knew the level of competition he could expect in London and it's clear he is scared of no one." In bringing together the best, Bedford is spending freely with his £1.4 million budget and he has yet to add to the women's field, which includes the British runner, Paula Radcliffe, in her debut over 26.2 miles. Radcliffe and Gebrselassie will applaud London's decision to introduce blood testing, aimed at exposing the use of the blood-boosting drug, erythropoietin (EPO). Conducted by UK Sport and funded by the marathon at a cost of about £15,000, the random tests will be carried out before and after the race. The procedure will be the same as that used at last month's World Half-Marathon Championships in Bristol, where blood testing, again paid for by the London Marathon, was used at a road race for the first time. There remains some doubt, however, whether the tests will involve the athletes giving both blood and urine samples. UK Sport are still waiting to see if the International Olympic Committee's hopes of validating a stand-alone urine test will be realised. Bedford added: "Given what happened in Bristol, it would be a nonsense if it didn't happen in London. Every athlete contracted to run has been informed that blood testing will happen and, without exception, the athletes have welcomed our initiative. "In the early stages of our negotiation with Haile, one of his conditions of running was that there should be blood testing and, although there was no real need, it was made part of his contract. "The fact that these athletes have signed up for London either says the game has moved on and we are being naive or that people are prepared to make a stand. It is a very exciting development for the marathon." Eamonn Condon www.RunnersGoal.com
t-and-f: US Track Meet Directors Meeting
The US Track Meet Directors Association will be holding its annual meeting during the USATF Convention in Mobile Alabama. The open general meeting is scheduled to take place on Wednesday, November 28, 2001 from 6:30pm to 8:00pm in room 202A. If you will be attending the Convention and would like the agenda or would like to become a member of the US Track Meet Directors Association - email a request for further information to [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you want your event listed on the 2002 Calendar please send us an email with your meet information. Provide the event name, date, meet director, address, telephone, fax, email and/or web-site informations. Survey materials will be sent in the future. Please forward this to other directors or ask them to contact us to be put on the mailing list. Best Regards, Bill Clark US Track Meet Directors Assoc, President [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: marathon taper
So sorry to report: marathon tapers are neither tricky nor does "doing more" make one tired. I know you didn't read that in "Jack Daniels Running Formula", it's in "malmos Running Algorithm" though. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Michael Rohl Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:59 PM To: Michael Contopoulos; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon taper Marathon tapers are very tricky, but doing more only make you tired. For an athlete coming out of 80 mile weeks (a poor measure of training to begin with) a 60-50-30(not including the race sounds about right. More important are the key workouts that one would want to hit. Did the individual hit his 30k with each 10 faster at marathon pace 3-4 weeks out? Did they get in 4*5k progressively faster? Then you can cut morning runs, there by reducing volume, by 20 % and maintain fitness. They only consideration that on might have is being able to adjust diet to prevent weight gain, or watching salt intake to prevent water retention. One reason I have handled Championships better then most would expect is because of my ability to taper. Too little is almost always going to be better then to much. In the last weeks. If you want I'll write down a typical taper verbatim. Michael Rohl Head Coach X-C, T&F Mansfield University
Re: t-and-f: conditioning (was: marathon qualifiers
Garry Hill wrote: > > > >There's no doubt in my mind that the NBA guys are the greatest athletes on > >the planet, bar none. (even if hockey players expend even more energy) > > > >gh > If NBA players are the greatest athletes on the planet, why did the NBA bar all but basketball players from their slam dunk contest after a track guy, Mike Conolly I think, won it? No wonder track isn't popular when a guy who's living depends on the popularity of track sells its athletes short. -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
t-and-f: Syracuse University Home Meets 2001-02
Date: November 6, 2001 To: Interested Institutions/Clubs/Individuals From: Andrew Roberts RE: Syracuse University Home Meets This year Syracuse University will be hosting three home meets. We are currently in the process of finalizing the fields for the competitions. Our first indoor meet will take place on Sunday January 6, 2002 in Manley Field House. We are looking for 3-4 teams for this meet. On Saturday February 2, 2002 we will be hosting the Syracuse Invitational in the Carrier Dome. The field size is limited to 14 teams and we will be inviting teams from those who express interest. To be assured consideration for this meet please be timely in your response. The Judith and Leslie Veilbig Invitational will take place on Sunday April 21, 2002. We are looking for 8 teams for this competition. If you are interested in attending any of the above meets please drop me a line via email with your contact info (phone, fax, email, mailing adress)specifying which meet. Note: Manley Fieldhouse is a 6-lane, 200m track. Carrier Dome is an 8-lane 200m track. ___Sunday January 6, 2002 - Meet in Manley Field House ___Saturday, February 2, 2002 - Syracuse Invitational, Carrier Dome ___Sunday, April 21, 2002 - Judith & Leslie Vielbig Invitational Sincerely, Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps & Multis Coach Syracuse University Track & Field _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: conditioning (was: marathon qualifiers
Garry must watch a different NBA than the one I'm familiar with. Yes, those guys are definitely great athletes - Garry may be right that they are the greatest athletes on the planet - BUT they sure don't run that much. "Nonstop forever"??? Well... except for time-outs (is there anything longer than the last minute of a basketball game?) and foul shots and out-of-bounds plus the ever-boring halfcourt offenses, which often amount to one guy going one-on-one, backing in, while the others stand around and watch. Fast breaks are very rare in the pros - the "maximal sprint speed" Garry mentions - and even then, only a few of the players are involved; the rest are trailers. Is it any wonder those 48 minute games take two hours - or more. Another poster referred to the MYTH that basketball players run 10K every night. No way. I think the myth started when some guy wore a pedometer during a game. The problem: The pedometer counts strides, so the distance is calculated by multiplying the number of strides times the inputted stride length. The miscalculation occurs because a typical stride length - 7'-8'? - is inputted, yet much of basketball is short, choppy strides and boncing almost in place while covering an opponent. GP >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: conditioning (was: marathon qualifiers >Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:09:36 EST > >In a message dated Mon, 12 Nov 2001 7:46:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, >"alan tobin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I used to play basketball for an hour or more after an hour run in high >school. Believe me, basketball is nothing in terms of conditioning.>> > >well, therre's basketball, and there's BASKETBALL, and in the latter, you >can run nonstop forever, some of it at jogging speed, some of it at maximal >sprint speed (now there's an interval workout), mixed in with multiple >maximal vertical leaps and a bit of wrestling thrown in on the side. An >hour run can't compare with the conditioning you get from an hour of >high-intensity basketball. > >There's no doubt in my mind that the NBA guys are the greatest athletes on >the planet, bar none. (even if hockey players expend even more energy) > >gh _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: USATF masters demographics uncovered
Greetings, all Check out: http://www.masterstrack.com/news2001/news2001nov13.html This is a five-year survey of masters athletes competing at the outdoor masters nationals (1994-98) but whose results have not been publicly divulged in its original form until now. Dr. Eric Zemper, formerly of Oregon and now working in Michigan, writes in his summary: Participants in the National Masters Championships definitely tend toward the up-scale, with 84% being college graduates (30% with masters degrees and 18% with doctorates), and two-thirds with household yearly incomes of $50,000 or more (21% with $100,000 or more). Me again: This bodes very well for efforts to market masters. Lots of money. Lots of education. And another finding of note: Two-thirds of masters responding to the survey own computers. (The figure has probably risen in recent years as well.) Hope y'all can make use of this information. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
Great subject... I suck at tapering...I hate it... Of the 6 marathons I have started I've struggled with the last few weeks each time, I've finished only 3 of them and barely that in my latest. Did the "best" taper to date for my latest debacle at NYC, followed a textbook 3-week job wherein the week ending 2 weeks out was 75% of peak mileage, the next week 60% of peak mileage and the last about a third of peak mileage in the last 6 days. Didn't feel too bad or lethargic or heavy, but still didn't feel as good as I did during peak mileage phase. Felt like I was bulletproof at that point and then on the actual day was far from it. Sometimes I think its best to just stick with what makes you feel strongest and toughest during the buildup...both training and nutritionally (my real downfall on the day of NYC). I felt a heck of a lot better on almost all of my important, hard long run Sunday's than I ever did on marathon Sunday. Lots of factors involved, some people (psychos like me) are probably better not backing off as much, no matter what the physiology says. For my mind, the more you taper and change things, the more worry/mental stress the event provides, would be better to treat it like any other race. I ran much better in races I "trained through" leading into the marathon. Whatever. Grote adiRP/MMRD - Original Message - From: Michael Rohl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Michael Contopoulos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:59 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon taper > > Marathon tapers are very tricky, but doing more only make you tired. For an > athlete coming out of 80 mile weeks (a poor measure of training to begin with) > a 60-50-30(not including the race sounds about right. More important are the > key workouts that one would want to hit. Did the individual hit his 30k with > each 10 faster at marathon pace 3-4 weeks out? Did they get in 4*5k > progressively faster? Then you can cut morning runs, there by reducing volume, > by 20 % and maintain fitness. They only consideration that on might have is > being able to adjust diet to prevent weight gain, or watching salt intake to > prevent water retention. One reason I have handled Championships better then > most would expect is because of my ability to taper. Too little is almost > always going to be better then to much. In the last weeks. If you want I'll > write down a typical taper verbatim. > > Michael Rohl > Head Coach X-C, T&F > Mansfield University >
RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
<<< I absolutely agree that this generation is less active, but that really is different than obesity. Obesity is much more endemic among low income groups in which dietary habits have degraded. And the spread in income distribution over the last 20 years in the US had exacerbated this trend. >>> Anecdotes don't prove anything, but ... This generation of "kids" (say those born between 1980 and 1995) are definitely more obese than any other generation. This is not confined to any income group ... in my experience and observation. Rich people have jumped on the Lard-wagon just as heavily as any other demographic. I am still young, but when I was in elementary school, each class had ONE fat kid that was made fun of. A few other kids were sedentary, but not really fat. Now? half of every class is obese or close to it. I still live near my elementary school and pass it frequently ... seeing this everyday. I also live near Michigan State University and see coeds who proudly display bulging bellies and WIDE, FAT ASSES in low-rise bell-bottom jeans. The typical 20 year old girl at MSU has a waistline and butt that would have shamed the average student just 10 years ago. I am not the only 30-something that has noticed this in my town. I stopped into the GNC nearest to MSU yesterday, and the clerk told me that "50% of every dollar this store takes in is from FAT-BURNERS ... Hydroxycut, Xenedrine and the GNC brand." I was stunned. Before you say, "Well, that is because he is in Michigan. Everyone is fat there." Realize that the student body is by far the fittest of the schools in our state. MSU Men's XC placed third at District ... beating the talented Badgers. The Women's team WON IT. People ARE fat in Michigan ... but that is NOT why I perceive this generation of young people to be fatter on the whole. Please don't comment if you live in California ... you have no idea how fat the rest of the nation is. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:30 PM To: Oleg Shpyrko Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers At 04:21 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > > > > At 01:06 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > > >I am constantly surprised how soccer "pulling away talent" theory is > > >mentioned much more often than, say, soaring obesity levels among > > >teenagers. > > > > The population of elite distance runners almost never will produce obese > > kids. Tendency toward obesity is linked in large part to body type. I > > don't see many 6-4/250 elite distance runners--they tend to play left > tackle. > >Obesity is an effect rather than a cause in my argument. Higher obesity rates >among kids is caused by lack of any aerobic activity. Yes, perhaps it means >that the kids genetically prone to obesity will become more obese, while >some skinny kids will remain skinny while inactive - but altogether it doesn't >change a fact that kids are much less active than they were 20 years ago. >Kids are slower because they are less active, and they are more fat because >they are less active, not that "kids are slower because they >are fat". I'm the list "stickler." I bug people when they are not precise in their meaning (and sometimes I fall into this trap myself.) I absolutely agree that this generation is less active, but that really is different than obesity. Obesity is much more endemic among low income groups in which dietary habits have degraded. And the spread in income distribution over the last 20 years in the US had exacerbated this trend. But you're right that inactivity among this group has certainly lowered base conditioning. Another problem has been the demise of the "pickup game" in any sport. Kids seem to only participate when they are in supervised activities, which means they have to operate on adult time. >Basically, the new generation's Bill Rodgers may very well be some skinny >kid who >currently spends most of his time on the couch playing Ninetendo. > >Even if we assume that the new generation's equivalent of all 200-something >sub-2:20 marathoners from 1983 are playing soccer now, perhaps my next >question >is how come US is still so far behind other countries, like Spain, Portugal, >Italy, Mexico or Brazil, which can somehow supply the world with BOTH top >marathoners AND top soccer players? > >Additionally, if you compare the ratio of popularities of soccer/xc+track at >high school levels in US to that in the countries mentioned above, it's >quite surprising they can produce any top distance runners at all. > >Compared to European soccer club system, US still lacks a serious >post-collegiate >professional circuit. One would expect a rather large fraction of >these alleged distance runners who try to become good at soccer to come back >to what they are naturally good at. >Perhaps in the future we will see more of such a-la-Larson
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
Wow... thanks for the responses so far... they have actually been pretty far reaching... once again, a testament to the individuality of the sport. Anyway, my marathon debut will be in NY next year... so I may go through this with all of you again then. As for my friend, he is making his debut on Sunday at the Phili Marathon... so the work and taper is already pretty much done with. I wanted to know all your opinions, though, because I thought he cut back too much. As for me, I am starting my first buildup after a year and a half off. To the dismay of many (mostly Alan probably) I will be running a long string of 90s going into my taper... no 100 or 110 mile weeks for this guy, as the thon, at this point, is not my focus. Running 90 miles a week at or near threshold pace, however, is. I think for both myself and my friend, our mileage, at this point in our careers, given our goals, is appropriate... we will see. Mike >From: "Michael Rohl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "Michael Rohl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon taper >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:59:08 -0500 > > >Marathon tapers are very tricky, but doing more only make you tired. For >an >athlete coming out of 80 mile weeks (a poor measure of training to begin >with) >a 60-50-30(not including the race sounds about right. More important are >the >key workouts that one would want to hit. Did the individual hit his 30k >with >each 10 faster at marathon pace 3-4 weeks out? Did they get in 4*5k >progressively faster? Then you can cut morning runs, there by reducing >volume, >by 20 % and maintain fitness. They only consideration that on might have >is >being able to adjust diet to prevent weight gain, or watching salt intake >to >prevent water retention. One reason I have handled Championships better >then >most would expect is because of my ability to taper. Too little is almost >always going to be better then to much. In the last weeks. If you want >I'll >write down a typical taper verbatim. > >Michael Rohl >Head Coach X-C, T&F >Mansfield University _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
Marathon tapers are very tricky, but doing more only make you tired. For an athlete coming out of 80 mile weeks (a poor measure of training to begin with) a 60-50-30(not including the race sounds about right. More important are the key workouts that one would want to hit. Did the individual hit his 30k with each 10 faster at marathon pace 3-4 weeks out? Did they get in 4*5k progressively faster? Then you can cut morning runs, there by reducing volume, by 20 % and maintain fitness. They only consideration that on might have is being able to adjust diet to prevent weight gain, or watching salt intake to prevent water retention. One reason I have handled Championships better then most would expect is because of my ability to taper. Too little is almost always going to be better then to much. In the last weeks. If you want I'll write down a typical taper verbatim. Michael Rohl Head Coach X-C, T&F Mansfield University
t-and-f: teaching visual relay passes
I was wondering if anyone had some innovative, original or just outrageous ways to teach the visual pass in the 4x400m, 4x800m, etc. I am basing a relay practice on running a few hand-offs, alone at first, then in a large group all together, with some pushing and shoving to mimmick actual exchanges of the 4x400m and 4x800m Anyone have any suggestions on what else I might want to try, or how to make the practice I have planned a little more interesting? I am working with very inexperienced relay runners who, I fear, will become uninterested after a while. thanks, please reply to me directly. Jared Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
I completely understand that at least basketball, and less so football, requires great conditioning, particularly at the elite level. I've read that an NBA player can run a 10k on game night. That's no small feat when you do it 82 times plus in a year. But few of those in the NBA could break 2:20 for a marathon, and those who did would not be able to play in the league anymore. Football can be equally tough, although I think you underestimate what distance runners can handle in those drills. ;^) However, my point about size was about ELITE distance runners. NONE are large and heavy by American standards (Tom Fleming notwithstanding). While you ran reasonably fast, you were not national or world class, which is what we're discussing here. RMc At 12:34 AM 11/13/2001 -0800, Gerald Woodward wrote: >Richard, > >Football and basketball are not sprint for 4 seconds and stand around for 10 >minutes sports! I would like to see how many runners can play football or >basketball without going through the additional conditioning drills required >to play those sports! I can guarantee you you that they would be on the >sidelines pucking out their guts after the first two-a-day drills! > >I was a track man who also played football. In track I ran 100 yards (9.6 >sec.), 220 yards (21.3 sec.), 440 yards (48.4), 880 yards (1:57.9). I >played football and basketball in high school along with track and in >college concentrated on track and football only. I could not have played >football on my track training only as I know from experience. I ran summer >track (440/880 training) and then went into football camp. The only thing >that my training prepared me for was the mandatory 2:30 minutes 880 yard run >the first day of training camp! > >And by the way, I was 6'2 1/2" tall and 206 pounds! > >Gerald > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Richard McCann >Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 11:35 AM >To: Oleg Shpyrko >Cc: T&FMail List >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > > >At 01:06 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > >I am constantly surprised how soccer "pulling away talent" theory is > >mentioned much more often than, say, soaring obesity levels among > >teenagers. > >The population of elite distance runners almost never will produce obese >kids. Tendency toward obesity is linked in large part to body type. I >don't see many 6-4/250 elite distance runners--they tend to play left >tackle.
Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
At 04:21 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > > > > At 01:06 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > > >I am constantly surprised how soccer "pulling away talent" theory is > > >mentioned much more often than, say, soaring obesity levels among > > >teenagers. > > > > The population of elite distance runners almost never will produce obese > > kids. Tendency toward obesity is linked in large part to body type. I > > don't see many 6-4/250 elite distance runners--they tend to play left > tackle. > >Obesity is an effect rather than a cause in my argument. Higher obesity rates >among kids is caused by lack of any aerobic activity. Yes, perhaps it means >that the kids genetically prone to obesity will become more obese, while >some skinny kids will remain skinny while inactive - but altogether it doesn't >change a fact that kids are much less active than they were 20 years ago. >Kids are slower because they are less active, and they are more fat because >they are less active, not that "kids are slower because they >are fat". I'm the list "stickler." I bug people when they are not precise in their meaning (and sometimes I fall into this trap myself.) I absolutely agree that this generation is less active, but that really is different than obesity. Obesity is much more endemic among low income groups in which dietary habits have degraded. And the spread in income distribution over the last 20 years in the US had exacerbated this trend. But you're right that inactivity among this group has certainly lowered base conditioning. Another problem has been the demise of the "pickup game" in any sport. Kids seem to only participate when they are in supervised activities, which means they have to operate on adult time. >Basically, the new generation's Bill Rodgers may very well be some skinny >kid who >currently spends most of his time on the couch playing Ninetendo. > >Even if we assume that the new generation's equivalent of all 200-something >sub-2:20 marathoners from 1983 are playing soccer now, perhaps my next >question >is how come US is still so far behind other countries, like Spain, Portugal, >Italy, Mexico or Brazil, which can somehow supply the world with BOTH top >marathoners AND top soccer players? > >Additionally, if you compare the ratio of popularities of soccer/xc+track at >high school levels in US to that in the countries mentioned above, it's >quite surprising they can produce any top distance runners at all. > >Compared to European soccer club system, US still lacks a serious >post-collegiate >professional circuit. One would expect a rather large fraction of >these alleged distance runners who try to become good at soccer to come back >to what they are naturally good at. >Perhaps in the future we will see more of such a-la-Larson examples. > >I simply don't think blaming soccer for the lack of top marathoners US >is facing is the answer - it's simply not consistent with >what is happening in other countries. > >Oleg. The problem is the CHANGE that has occurred since the 1980s. Before the US did NOT have competition for athletes between soccer and running. Basketball and football favor outsized athletes,and the only sport that competed with normal-sized athletes on a large scale was baseball. However, baseball requires a completely different set of skills (which pulls from the javelin-throwing population) with eye-hand coordination. Watch a cross country team play a softball game and you'll see why they're in that sport ;^). Now, however, this NEW sport has arrived that requires substantial conditioning, and players with adequate, rather than great, eye-foot coordination can do quite well. If soccer had been popular in the 1970s here, then your analogy would be correct. However, it was not, and so we now have competition that did not exist in the past. That's why soccer is so influential now. Richard McCann
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
My past experience as coach and (once upon a time) marathoner is that cutting back too much, as your friend suggests, leaves one feeling lethargic. I'd suggest something more along the lines of: @ 80 mpw 80, 65, 50 with an emphasis on little higher quality (i.e. shorter yet faster anaerobic threshold runs (assuming one is already doing a/t runs) and cutting back on long run (but maybe part of that long run being a bit faster than normal ...i.e. w/ 45 minutes of marathon race pace). Three weeks out, one is still getting training benefits...over the final nine or so days, the most benefit one can receive is from (relative) rest and some easy sharpening. Mike Fanelli "your San Francisco Bay Area real estate resource" Pacific Union Real Estate Group Ltd. (415) 447 - 6254 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.SFabode.com www.MarinHouseHunting.com - Original Message - From: Michael Contopoulos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:08 AM Subject: t-and-f: marathon taper > ok... i'm having a discussion with a friend about a good taper for a > marathon. he thinks that for someone running 80 miles a week going into 3 > weeks of the marathon, they should run 65-70, 45, 30. I say that is too > little. I gave him examples of Bob Hodge before his 2:12:30 at Boston and > Joe Lemay prior to his race this year in NY and before his 2:13 a couple of > years ago. What do you all think... both for someone who is averaging about > 80 going into the thon and then another one averaging about 100? Anyone's > specific training that you can guide me to? Thanks, > > Mike > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > >
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
I think there is evidence of all sorts on this, although I have rarely heard of an elite athlete using as radical a taper as you described. Much of the scientific evidence suggests that the taper should be a gradual 2-3 week process and that little you do in the 5 days before the race can help you. My own opinion is that after running 80MPW consistently for months, it is a shock to the system to take it substantially easy for more than 3 days. So I actually think that running only 30 miles in the week before the marathon will hurt you. My own suggestion, based on what I know has worked for some elite athletes as well as a couple of athletes I have coached, would be: -21 days out: Hard long run or 13-20 mile race -3rd week out: 70-75, only one hard day during the week, and on the weekend, 10-12 miles of some sort of marathon pace tempo or 12 x mile @ 15 seconds faster than marathon pace with 1:00 rest. -2nd week out: 70-75 - 2 hard days -about 80% of the volume of the normal hard days - plus a shorter tempo on the weekend. -Last week - 40 miles in the 6 days before the marathon. 1 hard day at about 60% the volume of the normal hard days (5 days out). Take the second day before the marathon off. Run 6 easy the morning of the day before the marathon, with a few marathon pace strides. - Ed Parrot\ - Original Message - From: "Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:08 AM Subject: t-and-f: marathon taper > ok... i'm having a discussion with a friend about a good taper for a > marathon. he thinks that for someone running 80 miles a week going into 3 > weeks of the marathon, they should run 65-70, 45, 30. I say that is too > little. I gave him examples of Bob Hodge before his 2:12:30 at Boston and > Joe Lemay prior to his race this year in NY and before his 2:13 a couple of > years ago. What do you all think... both for someone who is averaging about > 80 going into the thon and then another one averaging about 100? Anyone's > specific training that you can guide me to? Thanks, > > Mike > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >
Re: t-and-f: marathon taper
Not from a personal example but from what I've read/heard the main purpose of the marathon taper is to make sure your legs are fresh for the race. While training for a marathon you are usually putting in a high volume of miles. These miles damage the muscles so you need time in order for the muscles to heal and be ready to give 100% come race day. So, basically the more miles you run the longer you need to taper. Even a run of 9-10 miles can leave damage that is not fully repaired for a week. Runs of 20+ miles leave damage that is not fully repaired for a month, one of the reason's why most say your last real long run should be 3-4 weeks out from your marathon. If a runner running 100-150 miles a week only tapers for 3-4 weeks then a runner running 80 or so miles a week would probably only taper for a week or two. I think a good taper for an 80 a week runner would be 80, 60, 40 with the last long run coming a week before the 80 week and also the last "workout" coming 10-14 days before the marathon. Anything within the last 10-14 days are just "reminders" to what the pace will be like (say 3 miles at goal pace) and "turnover" workouts to keep the form effecient (strides, 200s, ect). Just one man's opinion. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
GERALD, You missed the point when it was said that football is not good for aerobic conditioning. Nobody was impugning the toughness of the football player or the sport. Both of these things can be tough. Football practice however, is not an aerobic conditioner. BTW, most of us who never played football are well aware of how hard "two-a-days" can be ... we experienced them too. Mine went something like this: Monday A.M. 2 mi WU, strides, 10 x 1000m @ faster-than 5k pace, 2 mi WD weight training, 300 situps, 150 pushups P.M. stretching and cals, 6 - 8 miles easy in 45-60 minutes Yeah, that is 17-19 miles a day. I did this when I was just 15 though. You ought to see what the really hard-workers did. BTW, I was 5'9" / 125 pounds. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Gerald Woodward [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:01 AM To: Ed and Dana Parrot; "Athletics" Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers ED, You hit the ball on the head in that distance running, football, and basketball are different sports requiring different types of training. i will say that distance running and basketball come the closest as to the aroebic and anaroebic types of conditioning. Football is another matter. I know the types of training required to go from one to the other and still remember the pain of the two-a-days in both football and basketball. Gerald -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ed and Dana Parrot Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 4:29 PM To: "Athletics" Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > Football and basketball are not sprint for 4 seconds and stand around for 10 > minutes sports! I would like to see how many runners can play football or > basketball without going through the additional conditioning drills required > to play those sports! I can guarantee you you that they would be on the > sidelines pucking out their guts after the first two-a-day drills! I can't speak for football, but for three years, I ran 20-30 miles per week in cross country and then started basketball practice right after the season. We did not do 2 a days, but early season practices were over 2.5 hours, much of which was conditioning drills - "suicides", etc. While I certainly was sore after doing exercises to which I was not accustomed, it wasd much easier than cross country practices. 30 seconds to 1:00 repeats of all out drills certainly raised my pulse rate, but it would come down immediately when I stopped. I didn't have a lot of speed or jumping ability compared to others on the team, but I along with the other cross country runner on the team had to hold back in order to keep the other players from geting pissed at us. I have on a few occasions coached cross country runners in the same situation and they had the same experience once basketball practice started. That's not to say cross country made me a good basketball player. But far from puking my guts out over my drills, my cross country training gave me a big advantage over all but the very best players. I have had this experience to some extent in other sports, including soccer. I have also coached plenty of football and basketball players in track, and they showed pretty much no basic aerobic capacity from their training in football and basketball. Part of that, of course, could be because they were mostly sprinters and jumpers who did not need to have much aerobic capacity. I'm not saying football and basketball are easy - they are different. But other than the contact, which is challenging in a different sort of way, the types of conditioning work done by football and basketball teams are not as difficult for runners as they are for most of those for whom football and basketball is a primary sport. This shouldn't take away from those sports, but we have to realize that the kind of conditioning gained from them is all but useless for distance running. Just like distance running is all but useless for doing the things that really matter in football and basketball - passing, tackling, shooting, dribbling, etc. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
Edward Koch wrote: > "Youth soccer is fine when it serves as one of many sports a youngster learns. Unfortunately, many soccer organizers take the view that youth soccer is a 24/7 sport twelve months a year. When that happens, our sport does lose some potential stars." I'd agree with that. An example is here locally is at Coast Union HS. A very small HS with 250-300 students up in Cambria where they filmed "Arachnophobia". Well last week Coast Union ran their State qualifying meet at Taft HS. Coast Union had 2 kids win their respective races and qualify for the state championships in division V. The boy is a sophomore in his first season of running and the girl is a senior in her first year. Both have decided to forgo the California HS XC state meet next weekend in Fresno because they have soccer games and are being pressured to do them instead. The head coach at Coast Union said he would arrange XC practice around soccer practice for these next 2 weeks without success. Granted these two kids aren't the best kids in the state, but 2 kids forgoing the largest meet in California to attend soccer games is a bad thing, not to mention a heck of a missed opportinuty for them as individuals. Joe > > -Original Message- > From: Oleg Shpyrko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Monday, November 12, 2001 1:07 PM > Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > > >I am constantly surprised how soccer "pulling away talent" theory is > >mentioned much more often than, say, soaring obesity levels among > >teenagers. Actually, in view of how inactive US kids are nowadays, > >I would view popularity of soccer as a huge positive factor - not > >a negative one. It's about the only sport popular at high school > >level that develops aerobic capacity - unlike basketball, baseball or > >football - which are more "sprint for 4 seconds, walk or stand around > >for the next 10 minutes" kind of sports. > > > >What is the common link between Aouita, Khannouchi, Vigueras, Larson, > >Kagwe, Thugwane, Paul Evans, ElGuerrouj - and throw in any top > >portuguese, spanish, italian, mexican or brazilian runners? > > > >They all started out as soccer players - developed speed and aerobic > >base an young age, then switched to running. Didn't seem to hurt them. > > > >If basketball didn't "steal" Paul Tergat, swimming didn't "steal" Alan Webb > >and triathlons didn't "steal" Lance Armstrong, do we really believe that > >soccer is "stealing" the next Bill Rodgers or Frank Shorter? > > > >Oleg. > > > > > > > >> Two other contributing factors that have been mentioned before: > >> > >> 1. Other sports (soccer, triathlon) pulling away more potential distance > runners they did twenty years ago; and > >> > >> 2. The USA birth rate bottomed out in the mid-1970's meaning there are > fewer adults in their mid to late twenties these days. Fortunately, the > birth rate has improved since then which may be a contributing factor to > recent improvements in high school performances in our sport. > >> > >> Ed Koch > >> > >> > >> Original Message: > >> - > >> From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:20:53 + > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> Subject: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > >> > >> > >> The problem is really quite simple, and it is 3-fold: > >> > >> 1. The US "elite" runners are not running nearly as hard/long as they > were > >> 20-30 years ago. This is due in part to high school and college coaches > >> adopting the high quality/low quantity approach. Three runners, three > vast > >> improvements in mileage, three of the best US marathoners we have had > >> recently: Joe Lemay drops a 2:13 after upping to 140-150, David Morris > drops > >> a 2:09 after going to Japan and uppping to 150ish, Josh Cox qualifies for > >> 2000 Trials after upping to 100+ then drops to 2:13 after upping even > >> further to the 130-150 range. 120 a week not working? Try 140. That not > >> working? Try 160. Fact is there were more US "elite" runners 20-30 years > ago > >> running upwards of 150 or more a week. > >> > >> 2. US "elites" wait too long to try the marathon. Todd Williams best > >> marathon days were back in '95-'96. We have three runners capable of sub > >> 2:10-2:11, but they are busy running 10ks on the track. The best US > runners > >> are too busy running 5ks and 10ks to worry about the marathons. 20-30 > years > >> ago a lot of the best US marathoners could hold their own on the track > and > >> the not-so-speedy made up the 2nd tier running 2:15s. Today, for the most > >> part, the not-so-speedy runners make up the 1st tier. > >> > >> 3. Too much other stuff to worry about. Forget about the few examples of > >> runners running 2:10 while working 50 hours a week. If you want to give > >> yourself the best cha
RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
Alan, I played "Varsity Football and Basketball!" Intramural basketball and touch or flag football do not count! Gerald -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 4:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers I used to play basketball for an hour or more after an hour run in high school. Believe me, basketball is nothing in terms of conditioning. Football? Does intramural flag football count? In terms of conditioning football is cake. In football you do sprint for 4 seconds and walk/stand around for 30secs or whenever the next play starts. Now, when you start banging heads in football that is when the distance runner gets killed...literally. In both playground basketball and intramural football our team of distance runners would barely break a sweat compared to the competition. Come on now. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 >From: "Gerald Woodward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "Gerald Woodward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Richard McCann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Oleg Shpyrko" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: "T&FMail List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 00:34:29 -0800 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Received: from [128.223.142.13] by hotmail.com (3.2) with ESMTP id >MHotMailBDB97D7C00CC4004326580DF8E0D871B0; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:35:38 -0800 >Received: (from majordom@localhost)by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.11.6/8.11.6) >id fACKXdc11292for t-and-f-outgoing; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:33:39 -0800 (PST) >Received: from albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net >(albatross.mail.pas.earthlink.net [207.217.120.120])by darkwing.uoregon.edu >(8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id fACKXbt11269for ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:33:37 -0800 (PST) >Received: from pool0583.cvx9-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net ([209.178.178.73] >helo=d0t6s4)by albatross.prod.itd.earthlink.net with smtp (Exim 3.33 #1)id >163Nlu-0005iu-00; Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:33:35 -0800 >From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:36:19 -0800 >Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) >In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Importance: Normal >X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Precedence: bulk > >Richard, > >Football and basketball are not sprint for 4 seconds and stand around for >10 >minutes sports! I would like to see how many runners can play football or >basketball without going through the additional conditioning drills >required >to play those sports! I can guarantee you you that they would be on the >sidelines pucking out their guts after the first two-a-day drills! > >I was a track man who also played football. In track I ran 100 yards (9.6 >sec.), 220 yards (21.3 sec.), 440 yards (48.4), 880 yards (1:57.9). I >played football and basketball in high school along with track and in >college concentrated on track and football only. I could not have played >football on my track training only as I know from experience. I ran summer >track (440/880 training) and then went into football camp. The only thing >that my training prepared me for was the mandatory 2:30 minutes 880 yard >run >the first day of training camp! > >And by the way, I was 6'2 1/2" tall and 206 pounds! > >Gerald > >-Original Message- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Richard McCann >Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 11:35 AM >To: Oleg Shpyrko >Cc: T&FMail List >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > > >At 01:06 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, Oleg Shpyrko wrote.. > >I am constantly surprised how soccer "pulling away talent" theory is > >mentioned much more often than, say, soaring obesity levels among > >teenagers. > >The population of elite distance runners almost never will produce obese >kids. Tendency toward obesity is linked in large part to body type. I >don't see many 6-4/250 elite distance runners--they tend to play left >tackle. > > >Actually, in view of how inactive US kids are nowadays, > >I would view popularity of soccer as a huge positive factor - not > >a negative one. It's about the only sport popular at high school > >level that develops aerobic capacity - unlike basketball, baseball or > >football - which are more "sprint for 4 seconds, walk or stand around > >for the next 10 minutes" kind of sports. > > > >What is the common link between Aouita, Khannouchi, Vigueras, Larson, > >Kagwe, Thugwane, Paul Evans, ElGuerrouj - and throw in any top > >portuguese, spanish, italian, mexican or brazilian runners? > > > >They all started out as soccer players - developed speed and aerobic > >base an young age, then switched to running. Didn't seem to hurt them. > >There are now many examples of soccer players (which is usually played in >the fall in the US) who would have run cross country in the US. Befo
RE: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
ED, You hit the ball on the head in that distance running, football, and basketball are different sports requiring different types of training. i will say that distance running and basketball come the closest as to the aroebic and anaroebic types of conditioning. Football is another matter. I know the types of training required to go from one to the other and still remember the pain of the two-a-days in both football and basketball. Gerald -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Ed and Dana Parrot Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 4:29 PM To: "Athletics" Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers > Football and basketball are not sprint for 4 seconds and stand around for 10 > minutes sports! I would like to see how many runners can play football or > basketball without going through the additional conditioning drills required > to play those sports! I can guarantee you you that they would be on the > sidelines pucking out their guts after the first two-a-day drills! I can't speak for football, but for three years, I ran 20-30 miles per week in cross country and then started basketball practice right after the season. We did not do 2 a days, but early season practices were over 2.5 hours, much of which was conditioning drills - "suicides", etc. While I certainly was sore after doing exercises to which I was not accustomed, it wasd much easier than cross country practices. 30 seconds to 1:00 repeats of all out drills certainly raised my pulse rate, but it would come down immediately when I stopped. I didn't have a lot of speed or jumping ability compared to others on the team, but I along with the other cross country runner on the team had to hold back in order to keep the other players from geting pissed at us. I have on a few occasions coached cross country runners in the same situation and they had the same experience once basketball practice started. That's not to say cross country made me a good basketball player. But far from puking my guts out over my drills, my cross country training gave me a big advantage over all but the very best players. I have had this experience to some extent in other sports, including soccer. I have also coached plenty of football and basketball players in track, and they showed pretty much no basic aerobic capacity from their training in football and basketball. Part of that, of course, could be because they were mostly sprinters and jumpers who did not need to have much aerobic capacity. I'm not saying football and basketball are easy - they are different. But other than the contact, which is challenging in a different sort of way, the types of conditioning work done by football and basketball teams are not as difficult for runners as they are for most of those for whom football and basketball is a primary sport. This shouldn't take away from those sports, but we have to realize that the kind of conditioning gained from them is all but useless for distance running. Just like distance running is all but useless for doing the things that really matter in football and basketball - passing, tackling, shooting, dribbling, etc. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Attention Track Statisticians!
I have suspected this variation for years as my body weight is always more at the doctors office than it is at home. Thanks, JL Kurt Bray wrote: > It turns out that gravity on earth is not uniform. There is small but > measurable variation in the force of gravity from place to place. Meaning > that objects such as athletes and throwing implements can weigh less in one > place than in another. The causes of this variation are not well > understood. The good news is that the areas of highest and lowest gravity > both happen to be under the ocean, however there is still considerable > variation over land masses, meaning that, for a given level of effort, in > some areas throwers will throw farther, jumpers will jump farther/higher, > and runners will run faster too. > > I'm surprised that track statistician are not already all over this - > diligently invalidating records, calculating conversion factors and tables, > and adding the letter G next to any low gravity-tainted marks still on the > books. Get busy boys! > > You can read about this and see a map of gravity variation at this NASA > site: > > http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/earth/features/watkins.html > > Kurt Bray > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
> Try this test on your self (with apologies to > Mike Rohl--but this may explain some attitudes): if you thought you could > win an Olympic medal in racewalking would you do it? I know many distance > runners (and sprinters and field people) who would answer no. Not too > many non racewalkers seem to worry about talent being lost to distance > running. Paul, No need for apology. The reality is that some things are either just too difficult or unrewarding. And unfortunately while the rest of the world views Gold as Gold that is not the case here. I have seen many National Class runners that could have been world class walkers. But you can't blame them in part. Why would a 28:30 guy give up free shoes, clothes, and money for a chance at a medal that would largely be ignored. In anycase I have long stated that if bare-butted ice block sitting was an Olympic event, I'd risk frost bite. Michael Rohl Head Coach T&F, X-C Mansfield University
Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
I doubt it. What is your rationale? He did nothing in the winter. So his seasons were like this... Spring- 3 months of running... Summer- soccer... Fall- soccer... Winter sit on butt and do nothing. Had he even run 2 seasons (winter too) I bet he could have been a 4:low teens guy. M >From: "Michael Rohl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], >"Michael Contopoulos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:37:24 -0500 > > >Netters > > The old school record holder in my hs was a > > soccer player... who knows what he could have done if he concentrated >solely > > on running- 4:10 or faster in hs?? > >Most likely, he would hav been slower. > >Michael Rohl >Head Coach T&F, X-C >Mansfield University _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: marathon taper
ok... i'm having a discussion with a friend about a good taper for a marathon. he thinks that for someone running 80 miles a week going into 3 weeks of the marathon, they should run 65-70, 45, 30. I say that is too little. I gave him examples of Bob Hodge before his 2:12:30 at Boston and Joe Lemay prior to his race this year in NY and before his 2:13 a couple of years ago. What do you all think... both for someone who is averaging about 80 going into the thon and then another one averaging about 100? Anyone's specific training that you can guide me to? Thanks, Mike _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: Re: t-and-f: marathon qualifiers
Netters > The old school record holder in my hs was a > soccer player... who knows what he could have done if he concentrated solely > on running- 4:10 or faster in hs?? Most likely, he would hav been slower. Michael Rohl Head Coach T&F, X-C Mansfield University
t-and-f: Attention Track Statisticians!
It turns out that gravity on earth is not uniform. There is small but measurable variation in the force of gravity from place to place. Meaning that objects such as athletes and throwing implements can weigh less in one place than in another. The causes of this variation are not well understood. The good news is that the areas of highest and lowest gravity both happen to be under the ocean, however there is still considerable variation over land masses, meaning that, for a given level of effort, in some areas throwers will throw farther, jumpers will jump farther/higher, and runners will run faster too. I'm surprised that track statistician are not already all over this - diligently invalidating records, calculating conversion factors and tables, and adding the letter G next to any low gravity-tainted marks still on the books. Get busy boys! You can read about this and see a map of gravity variation at this NASA site: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/earth/features/watkins.html Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
