Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
The crucial fact about chip timing for XC (Winning Time or ChampionChip) is that the resolution of the chip is about a tenth of a second. At the recent NCAA DIII Championships, with a little over 200 finishers in each race, 12 finishers were recorded by the chip system out of order in one race and 14 in the other, as determined by FinishLynx examination of their positions at the finish line. In most of these cases the difference in finish time between the runners whose finishes had to be reversed was 0-0.2 seconds. In some cases the difference was greater, which I attribute to one of the chips not being recorded at the primary mat (even in road races the runners cross two sets of mats); they were instead picked up at the backup mats (about 3 m past the primary). I examined the pictures to see what would happen if the rule were changed so that a finish would be recorded when any part of the runner's body (including the foot) reaches the finish line. In one race seven of the 12 reversals would still have been necessary; in the other all but one of the 14 reversals would still have been made. There has been some discussion of changing the definition of finishing a race to accommodate what people think is the capability of a chip system. It wouldn't do any good. You'd still need visual verification of the order of finish. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 22:49:20 EST Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships In a message dated 12/31/01 4:39:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A runner could have his torso cross first but have the transponder on his back leg and lose several places. I think S.O.P. in transponder timed Xc races is to have the competitors where a chip on EACH shoe, to lessen (though admittedly not eliminate) such occurences. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
In a message dated Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Eamonn Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think I've seen anybody suggest placing the timing chip on the torso (attached to race number?). This would seem to solve the trailing vs. leading leg problem. Anybody know if this presents technical difficulties? How about problems inherent in the chip being where a runneris able to remove the chip--which is tough to do on a moving shoe!--and and manipulate the result (if it doesn't get caught on photo) by either diving across the line with chip in hand, or even throwing it? gh
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
on 1/2/02 10:06 AM, Eamonn Condon at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think I've seen anybody suggest placing the timing chip on the torso (attached to race number?). This would seem to solve the trailing vs. leading leg problem. Anybody know if this presents technical difficulties? The chips aren't able to broadcast that far consistently. What you want is a digital result. The runner has not crossed the finish; now the runner has crossed the finish. If the chip is strong enough to be detected 3+ feet off of the ground, it might be strong enough to be picked up before the runner reaches the mat. You end up with a range of detected signals where the runner is near the mat, he may be crossing the mat or he may just be near the mat. Casio looked at a gate antenna system back in the mid 80's where a watch would be the signal and the runner would be consider across the line when he passed through the detection loop (the antenna was overhead, on both sides and below). It died in development. I think chip technology has a ways to go before it replaces the human judged system (with the aid of cameras) for close important finishes. bd -- Benji Durden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
I don't think I've seen anybody suggest placing the timing chip on the torso (attached to race number?). This would seem to solve the trailing vs. leading leg problem. I've been researching using chips for the Great American XC Festival for 2002. Our meet director told was told that a Japanese Company has developed a new chip system that is built into the race number and it can time in increments down to the 10th of a second. This seems like it would solve some of the issues with accuracy. I wonder if the chips would not be reusable if they were built into the number.
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
The current system has trouble picking up the chip that high above the mat. However, some work is being done to move the system up chest high (such as the poles in a department store that is used to detect shoplifting). I was at one race in which a group of runners picked up the #'s the night before. A few could not make it to the race. They sent their chips back with a friend who put them in her pocket. When she finished, 6 out of the 8 chips she was carrying registered them as finishing. - Original Message - From: Eamonn Condon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Athletics [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 12:06 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships I don't think I've seen anybody suggest placing the timing chip on the torso (attached to race number?). This would seem to solve the trailing vs. leading leg problem. Anybody know if this presents technical difficulties? Eamonn Condon WWW.RunnersGoal.com Sign Up for NetZero Platinum Today Only $9.95 per month! http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinumrefcd=PT97
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
In a message dated 12/31/01 12:35:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can this chip timing record team standing at every 5 km split and report those standing to a press room and TV in real time? Tom, I'm pretty sure this technology exists right now. Those of us stuck in the press room watching the TV feeds haven't experienced it, but folks at home in front of their computers could track individual runners' progress vie these very same mats. All it would take is inputting the data into a race scoring computer that would have the team registration info and spit out the intermediate scores as required. Jim Gerweck Running Times also hungry for new technology, but usually starving in the lunch line at the BAA press room.
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
In a message dated 12/31/01 4:39:33 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A runner could have his torso cross first but have the transponder on his back leg and lose several places. I think S.O.P. in transponder timed Xc races is to have the competitors where a chip on EACH shoe, to lessen (though admittedly not eliminate) such occurences. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
Can this chip timing record team standing at every 5 km split and report those standing to a press room and TV in real time? So could viewers of the Boston Marathon, for example, know as soon as the three runners of a USATF team pass the 5 km that that team is winning? I am imagining a team score running across the bottom of the TV screen with the full names of USATF teams such as Boston Athletic Association, Greater Lowell or Greater Boston Track Club, with the time score perhaps as an average or a total so viewers can see the battle develop for the men and women and people in the press room have immediate information to report on local or USATF competition. Can this chip system create interest in a team score and bring attention to USA post collegiate racing? Tom Derderian, eager for technology
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
I think this is where this technology holds the most promise. Wouldn't it be great to know the team scoring during an XC race and to see how it is developing? Or to see the early splits? May be have the mats at every 800m-1/2M point. Some things to consider with the chip: A runner's finish/placing is determined by the torso, not the foot or ankle (nor the head.) A couple scenarios to consider with the transponder on one foot: A bunch finish with several finishers leaning. A runner could have his torso cross first but have the transponder on his back leg and lose several places. Or, several runners are about to cross the finish line and the 6-2 runner lifts his foot across the line a head of the torso of other runners. At this year's NCAA XC nationals: Colorado 90, Stanford 91. So these are legitament scenarios that need to be addressed. That is why the cameras and humans pulling tags won't be going away for a while. I think the chip has a great purpose in large road races where it takes some runners several minutes to cross the start line. However, somethings still have to be worked out for cross country races if it is to be used as the official timing/scoring system. One being all the transponders have to start with the gun (not a mat that has to be crossed at the start like in a road race.) Also, maybe the placing of the chip should be on the torso and not on a shoe. I believe Indiana H.S. used chips at the state meet and I think NCAA D2 or 3 used it. Illinois high schools are going to it in 2002. Illinois used to use a narrow chute at the finish (only one person at a time across the finish line), but might be going to a wide-mouth chute in 2002. Plans are for eight cameras and FinishLynx timing along with the chips. Tom Derderian wrote: Can this chip timing record team standing at every 5 km split and report those standing to a press room and TV in real time? So could viewers of the Boston Marathon, for example, know as soon as the three runners of a USATF team pass the 5 km that that team is winning? I am imagining a team score running across the bottom of the TV screen with the full names of USATF teams such as Boston Athletic Association, Greater Lowell or Greater Boston Track Club, with the time score perhaps as an average or a total so viewers can see the battle develop for the men and women and people in the press room have immediate information to report on local or USATF competition. Can this chip system create interest in a team score and bring attention to USA post collegiate racing? Tom Derderian, eager for technology
Re: t-and-f: chip timing at European Cross-Country Chamionships
I'm not a chip expert, but I recently worked with a champion chip crew at a large marathon. The race timing was started by the gun and individuals were recorded as they crossed the finish mat. The official results were gun times. A few complained that Boston accepts chip times and they should have been credited with faster times. The chip only carries the runners ID. It does not need to be started when the runner crosses the start line. That still leaves the problem of separating close finishes. If more powerful mats were used, the chip could probably be attached to the torso, but then some folks would get worried about electromagnetic radiation (transmission line syndrome). Ed Prytherch Mike wrote - . However, somethings still have to be worked out for cross country races if it is to be used as the official timing/scoring system. One being all the transponders have to start with the gun (not a mat that has to be crossed at the start like in a road race
