Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
Hi, How about a fire extinguisher[1]? Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. [1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg Shu Higashi On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:25 AM, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote: Why *should* newly entered hydrants use this new precise scheme. Voting hasn't even started on the proposal, it might not get approved, the FRC start date is today, so it might get changed. I interpret that statement as part of the proposal to be (dis)approved. -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 15:59, S.Higashi s_hig...@mua.biglobe.ne.jp wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. A fire hydrant is usually hooked up to water mains, where as an extinguisher has a limited reservoir of either water or some other chemical cocktail and may be used for various purposes depending on the type of fire and this information could be very useful, but I'd tag them separately... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
Pre-processing isn't really an option for Kosmos, Maperitive, MapCSS/Halcyon (and judging by the number of rendering tags it spawns) Osmarender. Rendering is not something that only the gods do, there are tools arriving that will make it a lot lot easier to render. When these people render, they will fix the data so that it renders well. Either they will fix it in their own way or they'll fix it in a standard way. This idea that taggers do all the work, and renderers are gods is s noughties. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
Why do taggers have to compensate for poorly written programs making use of the data? On 7/27/10, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: Pre-processing isn't really an option for Kosmos, Maperitive, MapCSS/Halcyon (and judging by the number of rendering tags it spawns) Osmarender. Rendering is not something that only the gods do, there are tools arriving that will make it a lot lot easier to render. When these people render, they will fix the data so that it renders well. Either they will fix it in their own way or they'll fix it in a standard way. This idea that taggers do all the work, and renderers are gods is s noughties. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Sent from my mobile device ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27 July 2010 20:27, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Why does the data model have to make it so difficult for data consumers in the first place? So this is another case of the current API limiting things? I'd love to be able to micromap lanes, not just ways, which might fix the problem of parallel ways over the same physical bridge, but I can't. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27/07/2010 12:05, David Earl wrote: ... You don't need anyone's permission to do this. If you do a good job and promote it, it might catch on... which is one of the key reasons why I think Tag Central [1] would help us. David [1] http://www.frankieandshadow.com/sotm10/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27 July 2010 21:05, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: You could invent a tagging scheme that would let you model lanes. You could, for example, create a way tagged highway=lane or lane=1 [2, 3, ...] or some such - certainly needs some thought - maybe qualified with who can use it (access=psv ?), and so on, link all the lanes of a road together with a relation you also invent, and to the original road as well, which I'm sure we'd all prefer you didn't remove! The problem with doing something like this is, as show by admin boundary debacles, is this is too brittle and too easily broken by newbies. Whatever someone comes up with needs to be almost transparent/hidden from everyone, except those that actually care about it. I'd love nothing more than to be able to widen the current ways at nodes to the width of roads seen from aerial imagery and then be able to twiddle about with lanes and line them up with actual road markings etc and being able to tag lanes that can turn and lanes that can't, yes you could do a plugin in JOSM, but without changes to the API the first newbie that comes along would break it. Same goes for 4D editing, and historical maps, historical data would need to be hidden by the API unless the user specifically requests it. That's exactly how the house addressing Karlsruhe schema came into being. It doesn't conflict with anything else, so this isn't quite the same thing. You don't need anyone's permission to do this. If you do a good job and promote it, it might catch on. It's not about permission, it's the fact that nothing that anyone has come up with is substandard and likely to get broken by others... As someone said at the conference, it's a do-ocracy - just do it! Maybe so, but not all of us have the technical ability needed to pull some of these more advanced concepts off... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27 July 2010 21:27, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 27/07/2010 12:05, David Earl wrote: ... You don't need anyone's permission to do this. If you do a good job and promote it, it might catch on... which is one of the key reasons why I think Tag Central [1] would help us. How would that help with some of these very complex cartography techniques? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27/07/2010 12:30, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 21:27, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 27/07/2010 12:05, David Earl wrote: ... You don't need anyone's permission to do this. If you do a good job and promote it, it might catch on... which is one of the key reasons why I think Tag Central [1] would help us. How would that help with some of these very complex cartography techniques? It was the promotion bit I was getting at. Doing it is one thing, getting it widely known is another. David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:12 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... t... but I'd tag them separately... +1 -- Bill n1...@arrl.net bill.n1...@gmail.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
I agree that fire hydrants and fire extinguishers should be tagged differently. While both are used for putting out fires, fire extinguishers (a) are limited to use on smaller fires, and (b) are useful by themselves, whereas you need a suitable hose in order to use a fire hydrant )and so are of use to firefighters, but not the general public). Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com Date :Tue Jul 27 02:12:28 America/Chicago 2010 On 27 July 2010 15:59, S.Higashi s_hig...@mua.biglobe.ne.jp wrote: How about a fire extinguisher[1]? I don't think this is a good idea, as they are 2 completely different things... Could it be included to fire_hydrant tag? Seems the same purpose to me. They are equipped by local government mainly along with residential roads/living streets for emergency use in Japan. A fire hydrant is usually hooked up to water mains, where as an extinguisher has a limited reservoir of either water or some other chemical cocktail and may be used for various purposes depending on the type of fire and this information could be very useful, but I'd tag them separately... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27/07/2010 13:51, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredgej...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 13:51, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. There are actually projects currently going to tag them in different places in the world (there is one such project currently going in France). Whether to use OSM in life threatening emergency is a different discussion with a particular focus on liability. It is a rather large discussion not limited to fire hydrants. Emilie Laffray ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
2010/7/27 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. Why not? As any other map, it has to be taken with piece of salt, but if data are collected honestly and firefighters knows it, it can be very valuable. Even more - it would be nice if firefighters would use OSM as reference for themselves (having osm file copy somewhere of course). Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 23:05, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Why not? As any other map, it has to be taken with piece of salt Typical CYA legal stuff, that is unless you want to be personally liable for mistakes you make which cost someone their life... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 6:27 AM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: You cannot tell from our model, without additional information such as a relation, whether two parallel ways are part of a dual carriageway or just parallel roads. What's the difference? Just whether or not they have the same name? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On 27/07/2010 15:58, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 6:27 AM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: You cannot tell from our model, without additional information such as a relation, whether two parallel ways are part of a dual carriageway or just parallel roads. What's the difference? Just whether or not they have the same name? That's not sufficient. You'd have to do some kind of heuristic test to see whether they were approximately parallel as well, because there are often bits of the same (named) street elsewhere in the vicinity which aren't dual carriageway. More complicated geometry that could be solved by modelling. But you're right to some extent, so I revise my statement: You cannot *easily and accurately* tell from our model... David ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
2010/7/27 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com: On 27/07/2010 10:21, John Smith wrote: Why do taggers have to compensate for poorly written programs making use of the data? Why does the data model have to make it so difficult for data consumers in the first place? You cannot tell from our data model whether a bridge supports two ways or whether there are two parallel bridges, unless you, the tagger, says so (in a relation, on which there is no common agreement). Yes, I agree and think, we should come to a common agreement here. THere is also the problem, that the bridge itself might (or mostly has) have a name. It also covers an area, has middle supports or not, is built in a certain construction type, etc. There is lots of details we currently don't care for, but might do so in the future. I think that there is definitely space for a bridge-relation to deal with all these informations and bring them together. An alternative might be to draw an (additional) polygon for the bridge area in projection (with common nodes on the start and end) and tag it appropriately with name and other details. I did this once in the past (but not to the full detail): http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/42922473 Probably I'd prefer relations as they do not require geometry that is hardly available if you don't have good enough aerial imagery. In the case you do have the geometry you could attach it to the relation as well. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:06 AM, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: On 27/07/2010 15:58, Anthony wrote: On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 6:27 AM, David Earlda...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: You cannot tell from our model, without additional information such as a relation, whether two parallel ways are part of a dual carriageway or just parallel roads. What's the difference? Just whether or not they have the same name? That's not sufficient. You'd have to do some kind of heuristic test to see whether they were approximately parallel as well You said they were parallel. Twice in fact. But you're right to some extent, so I revise my statement: You cannot *easily and accurately* tell from our model... Personally I think the name of the road should be part of a relation which consists of all ways which make the road, not tagged on every single way individually. If that's what you're getting at, I agree. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a bullding that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
Yes, but my point was that fire extinguishers are not interchangeable with fire hydrants. If you don't have a fire hose on hand, a fire hydrant won't be of any benefit to you, but a fire extinguisher might be of use. Also, if the fire has already grown beyond what can be put out with a fire extinguisher can handle, but you do have a fire hose on hand, you need to know the location of the nearest fire hydrant, not of the nearest fire extinguisher. If both fire hydrants and fire extinguishers are tagged identically, then you won't know from looking at a map which is which. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net Date :Tue Jul 27 12:29:25 America/Chicago 2010 At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a building that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
At 2010-07-27 11:41, John F. Eldredge wrote: Yes, but my point was that fire extinguishers are not interchangeable with fire hydrants. I did not quote, and was not arguing with, that. I agree that hydrants and extinguishers should be tagged differently. At 2010-07-27 06:18, John Smith wrote: On 27 July 2010 22:58, David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com wrote: Like an earthquake in Haiti, for example,... I'd rather not be sued because someone thought they might be able to do something with the data that turned out to be false... Doesn't our use license include a hold-harmless clause? If not, why not? Not that there's much in the way of assets anyway. It seems already that public entities are interested in OSM. If we can keep those from being purely one-way forks, and manage to keep vandalism (intentional or not) at bay, there is certainly the potential to have extremely accurate maps of things (like hydrants, exits, extinguishers) that may not exist anywhere else. I'd certainly find that welcome in a building that's on fire. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
S. Higashi stated, earlier in the thread, that the Japanese government provided fire extinguisher stations along some residential streets, and posted a link to a photograph: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg. Such a fire extinguisher station would be useful to map, as you would be likely to find a fire extinguisher there. ---Original Email--- Subject :Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant From :mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net Date :Tue Jul 27 17:40:28 America/Chicago 2010 On 7/27/10 8:33 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote: I agree that fire hydrants and fire extinguishers should be tagged differently. While both are used for putting out fires, fire extinguishers (a) are limited to use on smaller fires, and (b) are useful by themselves, whereas you need a suitable hose in order to use a fire hydrant )and so are of use to firefighters, but not the general public). i'm uncertain about the case for fire extinguishers -- they're small and portable. please provide scenarios where tagging extinguishers is meaningful. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
On 7/27/10 6:57 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: S. Higashi stated, earlier in the thread, that the Japanese government provided fire extinguisher stations along some residential streets, and posted a link to a photograph:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fire_extinguisher_ja.jpg. Such a fire extinguisher station would be useful to map, as you would be likely to find a fire extinguisher there. ok. i've not previously seen any sort of public fire extinguisher station, the concept is a bit new to me. richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] emergency=*
On 28 July 2010 13:51, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: there is a whole suite of emergency related things that are not currently handled, for example, in the US, EMS services are frequently housed separately from fire departments and there's no tag codified for that at present that i know of. People usually default to amenity=* when all else fails. In Australia the ambulance service is a completely different organisation to fire and police and I can almost bet some would be tagged amenity=ambulance or amenity=ambulance_station... That isn't to say we should keep doing this if nothing else has been documented or used extensively... We also have SES (State Emergency Service) which is a volunteer organisation that helps during all other types of natural disasters and emergencies not covered by the other 3, like when roofs are blown off, or flooding traps people and animals etc... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
