Re: [Tagging] proposing a page on the wiki: tag names do not always correspond to their definitions
Hi, Am 18.05.2012 07:30, schrieb Alan Mintz: The idea, taken in a vacuum without knowledge of personalities, seems correct. There are many more examples, like highway=* things that are not highways. I don't think we need a page for it, but it should be somewhere in beginners documentation that the key and any non-name values may not be exact matches (or maybe even wrong) in your local usage and language. Generally I think there are a lot of false friends in tagging. For obvious reasons this is very likely more pronounced for non-native or non-Britsh users. Other examples at least for the Germans would be village_green, green-, or brownfield... But on the other hand I am not sure if a dedicated page would really solve the underlying problem. I would prefer to add the information to the description pages themselves, as this is where people look for information on tags. So I would rather suggest to use some template for this to show common misunderstandings or misconceptions. Perhaps we could also add a category so it wouldn't be either-or but as-well-as. Michael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Hi Tobias, Sorry to start this again, but yesterday evening was a little difficult. ;-) I reread the description and tagging of the example. If I understood you correct - please correct me if not - you are confused because about this: A ROUND place with a traversable ISLAND. So round and island are the problem - right? Actually the description just states what can be seen on the photo. A highway=turning_circle still is a widened space of whatever shape and with no or a traversable island. Nothing changed and should be changed in the definition of the tag. Did I understood you correct? If so, I'm thinking about a more clear wording for this example. Also the statement A turning circle is a widened space on a two-way street without any center island. should be updated to include fully traversable island. Thanks for your feedback, Martin 2012/5/17 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
You understand me correctly. Or maybe a text something similar to this: This picture shows a round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. Not saying that all turning circels need to be round nor have a traversible island. or.. I dont know maybee I was only tired yesterday.. :) MvH Thod A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/18 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi Tobias, Sorry to start this again, but yesterday evening was a little difficult. ;-) I reread the description and tagging of the example. If I understood you correct - please correct me if not - you are confused because about this: A ROUND place with a traversable ISLAND. So round and island are the problem - right? Actually the description just states what can be seen on the photo. A highway=turning_circle still is a widened space of whatever shape and with no or a traversable island. Nothing changed and should be changed in the definition of the tag. Did I understood you correct? If so, I'm thinking about a more clear wording for this example. Also the statement A turning circle is a widened space on a two-way street without any center island. should be updated to include fully traversable island. Thanks for your feedback, Martin 2012/5/17 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: On the page you referensed to. in the table with pictures it says A round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald (Imagic) imagic@gmail.com: But this is exactly the definition of turning_place: a widening of the road without any island. Am 17.05.2012 um 22:23 schrieb Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: There is one thing. In Sweden we have something called Vändplats http://www.transportstyrelsen.se/sv/Vag/Vagmarken/Forbudsmarken/Vandplats/ roughly translated turnaroundplace usally in sweden we have used highway=turning_circle for this. According to this definition almost no vändplats would be turning_circles because: They are almost never circular (except new ones beeing built today). And there is no island in the middle. In many cases they ar more like a widening of the road so its possible to make a three-point-turn. I dont think anyone i sweden will change how we map this in Sweden because of this definition. But how do you guys feel about this? Best Regards Thod 2012/5/17 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Hi! I updated now the english article: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:junction%3Droundabout Translations will follow in the next days. Many thanks to everyone who took part in the discussion and provided valuable feedback. Stay tuned - I'll come back to you for the next article soon ;-) regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/18 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: You understand me correctly. Or maybe a text something similar to this: This picture shows a round place with a traversable island in the middle, but this is neither a mini-roundabout nor a roundabout, but instead a turning circle, which allows large vehicles to turn around. Not saying that all turning circels need to be round nor have a traversible island. Thanks for that. I'll updated the wording. Better now? or.. I dont know maybee I was only tired yesterday.. :) The wiki should also be readable when tired. So please read it tonight around 4am after some beers. Let us know about any difficulties you had while reading - at least the ones you remember ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Andrew Errington wrote: It's easy to edit the wiki. It's easy for Potlatch and JOSM developers to edit the software to do the Right Thing. How do we make this happen? I like your it's easy statement, and look forward to you publishing details of where one can get the 40-hour day which will enable us happy Potlatch developers to do all the it's easy stuff that people would like. The big missing thing here is support for polygon-based presets in P2. It would be daft to call highway=mini_roundabout anything other than Mini-roundabout in the UK, because that's what everyone knows them as. But if traversable roundabout or whatever makes more sense somewhere else, then yes, the preset should reflect that if you're editing there. I believe the natural rejoinder to It's easy is Patches welcome. :) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Another-reset-on-roundabouts-tp5709308p5709346.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/17 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: Edit wars are what happens when someone ignores objections that have been raised and decides to arbitrarily define the existing tagging in the database as wrong. There will always be errors in the database, but if we redefine features every time someone has abused them we will not be able to keep any feature list active, the definitions will all become blurred. IMHO there was a kind of consensus in the mini-roundabout thread, although there also were a few objections. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
At the risk that we are going in circles on this argument. Let us try to figure out what the needs are. What we have (in theory) at present is - a roundabout is a road layout where traffic goes around a central island. At present a roundabout needs to be drawn as a circular way, not as a node. The direction of traffic depends on the country (left-hand or right-hand drive) - a mini-roundabout is a road layout where traffic goes around a central traversable area. This is to allow long vehicle to use it. A mini-roundabout is inserted as a node, not a way. The distinction between the two types of roundabout is clear-cut in some countries, where there are different rood signs for the two types, and is less clear-cut in others where the same road sign are used for both, only the physical implementation is different. Where does our problem stem from? Many mappers have used the mini-roundabout node for physically small roundabouts with an non-traversable centre island. In some cases (I have done it myself) it has been used to mark even a larger roundabout in a provisional way. What we are missing in this scheme is most obviously a “roundabout” node. Let's look at the new roundabout node: We should give it parameter to indicate its size, for example est_diameter. Now we have to consider the routing: If we look at the end product we want be able to deliver, i.e. the vocal instructions, they would have to distinguish between two categories of roundabouts: - “small” roundabouts, i.e. mini-roundabouts and roundabout nodes with est_diameter less than 12 meters (tbd): “turn left”, “turn right” etc - “large” roundabouts that are drawn as circular ways and node-roundabouts with est_diameter over 12 meters (tbd): “enter roundabout”, “take third exit” etc. So, if we look at it from the routing point of view it looks to me that we do not need to distinguish between a mini-roundabout and a small roundabout, but what we seem to need is a way to indicate the size of the roundabout in order to distinguish the routing behaviour. What I am arriving at is that we need a new node “roundabout” with a mandatory size parameter of some kind. The distinction between the present “mini_roundabout” and a small roundabout would no longer be relevant. Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On Fri, 18 May 2012 18:06:54 Richard Fairhurst wrote: Andrew Errington wrote: It's easy to edit the wiki. It's easy for Potlatch and JOSM developers to edit the software to do the Right Thing. How do we make this happen? I like your it's easy statement, and look forward to you publishing details of where one can get the 40-hour day which will enable us happy Potlatch developers to do all the it's easy stuff that people would like. Assuming it is a desirable thing, how do we make it happen? Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/18 Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 You are free to correct it and to write to the mappers in order to avoid they make the same mistake in the future. That's the usual way of dealing with problems like this. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On Fri, 18 May 2012 16:38:09 Martin Vonwald wrote: Do you have any suggestion how to change the presets for mini-roundabouts? The term mini-roundabout is very misleading so we need some very good, crystal clear and short description for it. Any idea is very welcomed! I think the term 'mini-roundabout' is not at all misleading. It's the name given to a very specific thing in the UK. What we need is clarification in the Wiki and maybe language-specific or country specific terms. For example, a list of countries where mini-roundabouts never appear, or a list of common mistakes when attempting to identify mini-roundabouts to help people identify them properly. The Wiki page looked good last time I checked. I will look again on Sunday. Best wishes, Andrew ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] proposing a page on the wiki: tag names do not always correspond to their definitions
http://vimeo.com/14776099 A video from SOTM 2010 regarding this (sort of). And I think he makes a lot of good points. But maybe OSM don't need/isn't ready for something like this yet. I think that we need to get the licens stuff done first and then have a little bit of a cool down period before we make another major change again :). Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: Hi, I think you mean, you want to firmly state this as a principle. Good! I actually this problem is worst for English speakers, because we tend to find it hard to distinguish the name of the tag from its meaning. Whereas Germans have absolutely no problem with the fact that power=station is a sub-station, and power=sub_station is a transformer...:) Steve On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to propose a page that basically says that just because a tag is named X, that does not mean that something should be tagged as such only if it meets the real-world definition of X. The following examples can be included: *Many cities are tagged with place=town *Bikes and pedestrians are allowed on many highway=motorways *Many highway=trunks have been detrunked *highway=motorway_junction is used for all classifications of road ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On 2012-05-18 at 11:32:32 +0200, Volker Schmidt wrote: So, if we look at it from the routing point of view it looks to me that we do not need to distinguish between a mini-roundabout and a small roundabout, but what we seem to need is a way to indicate the size of the roundabout in order to distinguish the routing behaviour. What I am arriving at is that we need a new node “roundabout” with a mandatory size parameter of some kind. The distinction between the present “mini_roundabout” and a small roundabout would no longer be relevant. Actually it would become very relevant: a router for large veicles would know that it can use large roundabouts and mini-roundabouts, but not roundabouts tagged as small. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Actually it would become very relevant: a router for large veicles would know that it can use large roundabouts and mini-roundabouts, but not roundabouts tagged as small. -- Elena ``of Valhalla'' You have a point there. So the conclusion needs to be that we need all three categories. That implies that we need to clean up all the thousands of improper uses of mini_roundabout for small non-traversable roundabouts. And that needs to be done in any case if we want to provide routing for large vehicles. Volker ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
2012/5/18 Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com: given to a very specific thing in the UK. What we need is clarification in the Wiki and maybe language-specific or country specific terms. For example, a list of countries where mini-roundabouts never appear you can never be sure. They now appear in many countries where they haven't existed before, e.g. in Germany. You will never know if a country in the future is going to build them. IMHO there should be one definition, and if the features doesn't exist (yet?) in your country you simply will not use the tag. Wiki lists with special rules for hundreds of countries and regions tend to look more complicated than what the average newbie would like to see. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
What I am arriving at is that we need a new node “roundabout” with a mandatory size parameter of some kind. The distinction between the present “mini_roundabout” and a small roundabout would no longer be relevant. Actually it would become very relevant: a router for large veicles would know that it can use large roundabouts and mini-roundabouts, but not roundabouts tagged as small. That is exactly the main distinction between a small roundabout and a mini-roundabout. Should we add this as an example to the answer of the Why is it important to follow this tagging guideline-question? Maybe it makes it a little bit clearer? Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
Hi, I have started a project with a school to map some objects in our city (for example, house numbers). There is a way to standardize this process, at least for some objects? I'm a newbie and I ask every time how to tag a new type of objects... and if I look at other similar objects, I see that different people tag similar objects in different way. For this school, I'm writing a document that explain howto map an object. For example: * choose a node in an existing building or, only if necessary, create a new node in a building side * add tag addr:housenumber * add the house number(s). If there are more values, separate each item with ; * add tag addr:street * add the correct street name I think that if the tagging is, al least for the minimum required tags for each object, the same for all tagger, the database could be used more friendly and with lesser resources (that is better for all). I think that is expensive detect house numbers in buildings, in nodes, with some numbers separated with comma, some numbers separated with semicolon, and so on... I understand that different situation could produce different tagging... maybe this can be done inside each state (tagging standard for Italy, for Germay, for ...) Good documentation = better tagging = lesser requests = better database info Stefano PS: my english is not so good, sorry ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Andrew Errington wrote: [P2 patches] Assuming it is a desirable thing, how do we make it happen? You'll have to excuse this for being a glib answer but - essentially, someone needs to write the code. The ideal situation is if you, or someone else who wants to see the feature, are sufficiently motivated to code it yourself. ActionScript 3 is actually a really nice language and accessible if you've ever coded any JavaScript or Java. The compiler environment (runs on Windows, Mac or Linux) takes a short while to set up but the existing developers will be very happy to help. Failing that, you need to persuade one of the existing developers to write it. Speaking personally I'm up to my eyeballs at the moment, and my first priority has to be to review the existing patches that people have submitted recently. It's possible that someone else might take it on but I wouldn't count on it. Having bbox/polygon-based tagging might also require some amount of discussion about how the map_features.xml file format is changed to accommodate it, though hopefully the implementer is also a genius who will arrive at the right format automatically. :) But the one cautionary note I would add is that (IMO) discussing the file format without any intention to implement it is wikifiddling at its worst; I really don't want to get into the situation where 50 people discuss a format with frequent use of the word should, and then no-one codes it. (Can you tell I've been around OSM for a while now...?) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Another-reset-on-roundabouts-tp5709308p5709375.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
2012/5/18 Stefano Fraccaro stefano.fracc...@libero.it: add tag addr:housenumber usually (?) we also add the tag addr:street as this might not always be obvious. (Many mappers add the full set of address-tags to every address). If you use presets with autocompletion (and preselected values) or copy+paste this is less work than it sounds like. add the house number(s). If there are more values, separate each item with ; I'd use a node (or area) for each number if possible, or, if the number is something like 144-151 I'd use this 144-151 rather than a list 144;145;146;147;. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On 18/05/2012 10:32, Volker Schmidt wrote: * a roundabout is a road layout where traffic goes around a central island. At present a roundabout needs to be drawn as a circular way, not as a node. Actually (and this has been inaccurate in the wiki from the year dot), a roundabout doesn't necessarily have a central island: elevated roundabouts just have a big hole in the middle. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
And preferbly the nodes with addresses should correspond to an entrence of the building. Some reasons for this, I add a .pdf with some: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Housenumbers.pdf Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2012/5/18 Stefano Fraccaro stefano.fracc...@libero.it: add tag addr:housenumber usually (?) we also add the tag addr:street as this might not always be obvious. (Many mappers add the full set of address-tags to every address). If you use presets with autocompletion (and preselected values) or copy+paste this is less work than it sounds like. add the house number(s). If there are more values, separate each item with ; I'd use a node (or area) for each number if possible, or, if the number is something like 144-151 I'd use this 144-151 rather than a list 144;145;146;147;. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
Hi, there are some arguments in the pdf, which aren't any problem anymore. There are algorithms, which copy information from a closed way to a specific node of this closed way (eg. in mkgmap). The advantage of this is, that the router can select the entrance-node, which is best for his users. Eg. a wheelchair-router could use the entrance-node for wheelchairs. A delivery-router could copy the information to the delivery-entrace etc. This is more flexible as having all address-information at the main entrance. Henning ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Turning circle with island or turning loop (was Re: (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: I added highway=turning_loop to the last example and noted, that it is under discussion right now. I've changed all my junction=roundabout + note=turning_loop to be highway=turning_loop now. I've created a wiki page for highway=turning_loop: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_loop A big note at the top says: This tag is the product of recent (May 2012) discussions on the tagging@ mailing list. It has not been through the proposal process on this wiki, is not yet in widespread use, and is not yet supported in any of the editors or renderers. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Correct, Steve. We should replace island with island or obstacle or something to that effect. Volker On 18 May 2012 13:00, Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com wrote: On 18/05/2012 10:32, Volker Schmidt wrote: - a roundabout is a road layout where traffic goes around a central island. At present a roundabout needs to be drawn as a circular way, not as a node. Actually (and this has been inaccurate in the wiki from the year dot), a roundabout doesn't necessarily have a central island: elevated roundabouts just have a big hole in the middle. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Turning circle with island or turning loop (was Re: (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Josh Doe wrote: I better not get on my soapbox about how we need the OSM.org stylesheet to be located on GitHub, and to use Carto so people can use TileMill for designing. I don't think anyone disagrees with you. It's just that soapboxes don't in themselves produce code. Why not start a project at github (even if it's just 20 lines of Carto to do the main road types with the existing colours), lash up a README explaining how to install TileMill et al, and invite other people to hack on it? cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Turning-circle-with-island-or-turning-loop-was-Re-Mini-Roundabout-examples-tp5708746p5709409.html Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Turning circle with island or turning loop (was Re: (Mini)Roundabout: examples
2012/5/18 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: I've created a wiki page for highway=turning_loop: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_loop Thanks for that. Do you think it would be a good idea to put the section Possible misinterpretations also into this article? If so, I would move the text into a template which could be reused. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On 18/05/2012 13:45, Volker Schmidt wrote: We should replace island with island or obstacle or something to that effect. I've changed it to 'an island or a void'. -- Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Ahm - you completely screwed the article :-S 2012/5/18 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: On 18/05/2012 13:45, Volker Schmidt wrote: We should replace island with island or obstacle or something to that effect. I've changed it to 'an island or a void'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Thanks. I guess I edited an old version or something? Sorry about that. On 18/05/2012 14:23, Martin Vonwald wrote: I reverted to the previous version and added a note about void in case of elevated roads. 2012/5/18 Martin Vonwaldimagic@gmail.com: Ahm - you completely screwed the article :-S 2012/5/18 Steve Doerrdoerr.step...@gmail.com: On 18/05/2012 13:45, Volker Schmidt wrote: We should replace island with island or obstacle or something to that effect. I've changed it to 'an island or a void'. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
2012/5/18 Steve Doerr doerr.step...@gmail.com: Thanks. I guess I edited an old version or something? Sorry about that. Intentions were good. Mistakes happens. No problem :-) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
Tobias Johansson wrote: And preferbly the nodes with addresses should correspond to an entrence of the building. Some reasons for this, I add a .pdf with some: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Housenumbers.pdf May I ask you to avoid quoting that PDF? It only presents Lulu-Ann's personal opinion, and the argument is flawed because it completely ignores that software can guide you to an entrance node in a building outline even if the address is on the outline, rather than the entrance. My preferred way to place addresses is: - put them on building outlines if there is one number per building - put them on entrances if there are separate numbers for each entrance Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: junction=roundabout should not care about right-of-way. Trying to enforce this in the map is going to be impossible anyway because it is such a technicality. And I'm not sure what value is added by inventing another tag for edge cases that differ only in handling of right-of-way. But what is a case where the only difference is in right-of-way? I don't see right-of-way as a rule so much as a guideline. If you are going to call any roadway which is kind of circular in shape a roundabout, no matter how large, and no matter how complicated the intersections, then where do you draw the line? Is the beltway around Washington DC a roundabout? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: junction=roundabout should not care about right-of-way. Trying to enforce this in the map is going to be impossible anyway because it is such a technicality. And I'm not sure what value is added by inventing another tag for edge cases that differ only in handling of right-of-way. But what is a case where the only difference is in right-of-way? I don't see right-of-way as a rule so much as a guideline. If you are going to call any roadway which is kind of circular in shape a roundabout, no matter how large, and no matter how complicated the intersections, then where do you draw the line? Is the beltway around Washington DC a roundabout? The key word there, I think, is *intersections*. A roundabout should be an intersection, not a bunch of separate intersections. If you're going to expand it to the point where you have traffic lights or stop signs for people who are already in the roundabout, it's no longer a single intersection. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
The distinction in the UK is between a roundabout and a gyratory. Roundabouts can have signals, but they tend to be linked so that it flows, and if you're going straight ahead, you won't normally stop once you're on the roundabout. Roundabouts don't generally have buildings in the middle, or pedestrian access to the middle (at grade). On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 2:45 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 9:42 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 6:21 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote: junction=roundabout should not care about right-of-way. Trying to enforce this in the map is going to be impossible anyway because it is such a technicality. And I'm not sure what value is added by inventing another tag for edge cases that differ only in handling of right-of-way. But what is a case where the only difference is in right-of-way? I don't see right-of-way as a rule so much as a guideline. If you are going to call any roadway which is kind of circular in shape a roundabout, no matter how large, and no matter how complicated the intersections, then where do you draw the line? Is the beltway around Washington DC a roundabout? The key word there, I think, is *intersections*. A roundabout should be an intersection, not a bunch of separate intersections. If you're going to expand it to the point where you have traffic lights or stop signs for people who are already in the roundabout, it's no longer a single intersection. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/18948794 (Persiaran Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah, Putrajaya) This is being referred to by some as the world's largest roundabout. Does it qualify, in terms of osm tags? Seems to be more of a roundabout than many of those New Jersey traffic circles. But I don't think I'd grant it roundabout status. It's just a road that's circular (oval) in shape. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Turning circle with island or turning loop (was Re: (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: 2012/5/18 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: I've created a wiki page for highway=turning_loop: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_loop Thanks for that. Do you think it would be a good idea to put the section Possible misinterpretations also into this article? If so, I would move the text into a template which could be reused. While the Possible misinterpretations section is great, I think most people will find it to be too long and won't read it. I think it might belong on a separate page rather than on one tag page or on all (via a template). I'd suggest prominently linking to it in all affected tag pages, but then have a shorter, practical if this, then that list customized for each tag page. Take a look at my rework of highway=turning_circle for how I'd handle it for the other pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle Note that I also put this section in a template, which you asked to be done, and have created a primary page for this to exist at, in case the method I used on turning circle is found to be suitable. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Circular_and_widened_road_features That page name is the best I could come up with, if you or others have a better one then we can move the page. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
Are we talking about this?http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uvl-p3eVBeM/Tr8xUuhRYbI/Iho/NJZGrhCH6yk/s400/53242_1431458077448_1562786087_30891073_4275686_o.jpg If would think this is a Magic Roundabout. Practical and useful tagging of such creations is some kind of art, IMO. Martin Am 18.05.2012 um 16:04 schrieb Anthony o...@inbox.org: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/18948794 (Persiaran Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah, Putrajaya) This is being referred to by some as the world's largest roundabout. Does it qualify, in terms of osm tags? Seems to be more of a roundabout than many of those New Jersey traffic circles. But I don't think I'd grant it roundabout status. It's just a road that's circular (oval) in shape. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
I see your point concerning you don't have to do it that way. But I don't really se any reason for not doing it that way? And if it makes it simpler? But I have no big objection for what you say. I myself have mapped a lot of houses the way you stated before I saw some other presentation Lulu-Ann made and thought hadn't thought of that. And isn't all taggig done according to diffrent peoples opinions? :) (just a thought). Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de: Tobias Johansson wrote: And preferbly the nodes with addresses should correspond to an entrence of the building. Some reasons for this, I add a .pdf with some: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Housenumbers.pdf May I ask you to avoid quoting that PDF? It only presents Lulu-Ann's personal opinion, and the argument is flawed because it completely ignores that software can guide you to an entrance node in a building outline even if the address is on the outline, rather than the entrance. My preferred way to place addresses is: - put them on building outlines if there is one number per building - put them on entrances if there are separate numbers for each entrance Tobias ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
2012/5/18 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Are we talking about this?http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uvl-p3eVBeM/Tr8xUuhRYbI/Iho/NJZGrhCH6yk/s400/53242_1431458077448_1562786087_30891073_4275686_o.jpg If would think this is a Magic Roundabout. Thats.. Cool :D sort of two roundabouts (or traffic circels or roads whatever havn't followed the discussion totaly) in different direktions with 4 minis connectig them or something like that... I want to go to the parties the guy who designed this throws.. Best Regards Thod Practical and useful tagging of such creations is some kind of art, IMO. Martin Am 18.05.2012 um 16:04 schrieb Anthony o...@inbox.org: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/18948794 (Persiaran Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah, Putrajaya) This is being referred to by some as the world's largest roundabout. Does it qualify, in terms of osm tags? Seems to be more of a roundabout than many of those New Jersey traffic circles. But I don't think I'd grant it roundabout status. It's just a road that's circular (oval) in shape. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Turning circle with island or turning loop (was Re: (Mini)Roundabout: examples
Am 18.05.2012 um 16:11 schrieb Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: While the Possible misinterpretations section is great, I think most people will find it to be too long and won't read it. I think it might belong on a separate page rather than on one tag page or on all (via a template). I would really like to agree with you, but I'm afraid that most people would simply ignore/overlook such link. That's why I put it directly into the article, but because of its length right at the end. I'd suggest prominently linking to it in all affected tag pages, but then have a shorter, practical if this, then that list customized for each tag page. I think the example photos cover this if this, then that list quite well. Photos/images are often easier to understand, harder to overlook and understood even if someone doesn't speak the language. Take a look at my rework of highway=turning_circle for how I'd handle it for the other pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle Like it. I would add a few example photos. Note that I also put this section in a template, which you asked to be done, and have created a primary page for this to exist at, in case the method I used on turning circle is found to be suitable. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Circular_and_widened_road_features Already seen it - thanks. That page name is the best I could come up with, if you or others have a better one then we can move the page. It'll do ;-) Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
I just thought I would show a special roundabout from my neighborhood http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/8110827 Before anyone says this isn't a roundabout check out the sign http://maps.google.se/maps?hl=svll=57.69702,11.987972spn=0.001194,0.002411t=hz=19layer=ccbll=57.697027,11.987767panoid=HAA8Fqi1VzNw7jBrBVdUQgcbp=12,273.97,,0,12.21 It does demand some skill to drive thru, because it's often heavy traffic there and you have to yeild to the trams.. Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se: 2012/5/18 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: Are we talking about this?http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uvl-p3eVBeM/Tr8xUuhRYbI/Iho/NJZGrhCH6yk/s400/53242_1431458077448_1562786087_30891073_4275686_o.jpg If would think this is a Magic Roundabout. Thats.. Cool :D sort of two roundabouts (or traffic circels or roads whatever havn't followed the discussion totaly) in different direktions with 4 minis connectig them or something like that... I want to go to the parties the guy who designed this throws.. Best Regards Thod Practical and useful tagging of such creations is some kind of art, IMO. Martin Am 18.05.2012 um 16:04 schrieb Anthony o...@inbox.org: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/18948794 (Persiaran Sultan Salahuddin Abdul Aziz Shah, Putrajaya) This is being referred to by some as the world's largest roundabout. Does it qualify, in terms of osm tags? Seems to be more of a roundabout than many of those New Jersey traffic circles. But I don't think I'd grant it roundabout status. It's just a road that's circular (oval) in shape. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
On Fri, 18 May 2012, Tobias Johansson wrote: I see your point concerning you don't have to do it that way. But I don't really se any reason for not doing it that way? And if it makes it simpler? But I have no big objection for what you say. I myself have mapped a lot of houses the way you stated before I saw some other presentation Lulu-Ann made and thought hadn't thought of that. And isn't all taggig done according to diffrent peoples opinions? :) (just a thought). While it is not that harmful to have addresses in the entrance nodes if you have only single address, it gets quite challenging in places where a building can have more than one address, cases for even 4 valid addresses exists (we're yet to find a 5 address case but even those would be possible at least in theory). ...So it's not just about what is somebody's opinion but there are situation some approaches fail to solve in a reasonable way (and this problem was explained multiple times to Lulu-Ann but the solutions while retaining the addresses in the entrances proposed were lousy hacks). But obviously if the address really is for a entrance instead of the building, it probably makes more sense to put that to entrance itself. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
Yes most corner houses in sweden have two addresses. Have myself seen one with three. And to repeat myself hadn't thought about that :) Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: On Fri, 18 May 2012, Tobias Johansson wrote: I see your point concerning you don't have to do it that way. But I don't really se any reason for not doing it that way? And if it makes it simpler? But I have no big objection for what you say. I myself have mapped a lot of houses the way you stated before I saw some other presentation Lulu-Ann made and thought hadn't thought of that. And isn't all taggig done according to diffrent peoples opinions? :) (just a thought). While it is not that harmful to have addresses in the entrance nodes if you have only single address, it gets quite challenging in places where a building can have more than one address, cases for even 4 valid addresses exists (we're yet to find a 5 address case but even those would be possible at least in theory). ...So it's not just about what is somebody's opinion but there are situation some approaches fail to solve in a reasonable way (and this problem was explained multiple times to Lulu-Ann but the solutions while retaining the addresses in the entrances proposed were lousy hacks). But obviously if the address really is for a entrance instead of the building, it probably makes more sense to put that to entrance itself. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Centre for Media Services
Hi, I'd like to tag a service centre at a university. They call themself the Centre for Information and Media Services (Zentrum für Informations- und Mediendienste in German) and provide all kind of services, like maintenance of computer infrastructure, data processing, software administration, account managing and so on. For now, I've tagged it as amentity=service_centre + services=multimedia (with s so not to mix it up with service=*). Does anyone have suggestions for more precise tags? Seoman ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
On 18/05/2012 17:31, Martin Vonwald (Imagic) wrote: Am 18.05.2012 um 16:32 schrieb Tobias Johanssont...@mensa.se: Are we talking about this?http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Uvl-p3eVBeM/Tr8xUuhRYbI/Iho/NJZGrhCH6yk/s400/53242_1431458077448_1562786087_30891073_4275686_o.jpg If would think this is a Magic Roundabout. Thats.. Cool :D sort of two roundabouts (or traffic circels or roads whatever havn't followed the discussion totaly) in different direktions with 4 minis connectig them or something like that... Before I started researching for the roundabout-article I haven't seen such a monster myself. Technically speaking it is a roundabout, so it should be tagged as such. This is the original Magic Roundabout in Swindon, UK. Technically speaking it is NOT a roundabout - it is a complex junction with several roundabouts which happen to be arranged roughly in a circle. It's confusing enough for us poor old humans as it is, without satnavs having to distinguish between macro-roundabouts and micro-roundabouts. The whole construction has only one single thing in common with a roundabout - its roughly circular form. There's another one in Hemel Hempstead by the way, with six connected roundabouts. How about looking at an example use case. What would we *actually expect* routing directions to look/sound like if we (let's say) enter from the south (B4289) and we want to exit to the north-east (Shrivenham Rd)? Colin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] (Mini)Roundabout: examples
On 5/18/2012 9:15 AM, Anthony wrote: 2012/5/18 Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com: If anyone doubts that existing tagging does not match the wiki, see the following examples, all tagged as junction=roundabout by editors other than me: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/5677217 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/9080282 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/25529510 I don't see why the last one doesn't qualify as a roundabout. We are allowing stop signs, right? Look at the yield teeth on the Bing aerial. The north approach has right-of-way over the circle. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging: minimum required tags
... and if you identify an entrance it's a good idea to tag is as such: I've understood that entrance=yes is preferred over building=entrance (as that can be used for entrances to parks, parking lots, lots in general etc entrances that are not entrances to buildings. Right/wrong? -Jaakko On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 10:58 AM, Tobias Johansson t...@mensa.se wrote: Yes most corner houses in sweden have two addresses. Have myself seen one with three. And to repeat myself hadn't thought about that :) Best Regards Thod 2012/5/18 Ilpo Järvinen ilpo.jarvi...@helsinki.fi: On Fri, 18 May 2012, Tobias Johansson wrote: I see your point concerning you don't have to do it that way. But I don't really se any reason for not doing it that way? And if it makes it simpler? But I have no big objection for what you say. I myself have mapped a lot of houses the way you stated before I saw some other presentation Lulu-Ann made and thought hadn't thought of that. And isn't all taggig done according to diffrent peoples opinions? :) (just a thought). While it is not that harmful to have addresses in the entrance nodes if you have only single address, it gets quite challenging in places where a building can have more than one address, cases for even 4 valid addresses exists (we're yet to find a 5 address case but even those would be possible at least in theory). ...So it's not just about what is somebody's opinion but there are situation some approaches fail to solve in a reasonable way (and this problem was explained multiple times to Lulu-Ann but the solutions while retaining the addresses in the entrances proposed were lousy hacks). But obviously if the address really is for a entrance instead of the building, it probably makes more sense to put that to entrance itself. -- i. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Another reset on roundabouts
2012/5/18 Anthony o...@inbox.org: The key word there, I think, is *intersections*. A roundabout should be an intersection, not a bunch of separate intersections. If you're going to expand it to the point where you have traffic lights or stop signs for people who are already in the roundabout, it's no longer a single intersection. What about this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.512602lon=13.321865zoom=18layers=M or this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.514551lon=13.350382zoom=18layers=M They are currently tagged as roundabouts but do have traffic lights in the circle. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
