Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated values?

[John F. Eldredge]

Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am 20.09.2012 um 10:46 schrieb Chris Hill :
> 
> > Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same
> way a charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should
> describe them separately.
> 
> +1
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin

I also agree that animal shelters and boarding kennels are not the same thing, 
and should be tagged differently.

-- 
John F. Eldredge --  j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated

[Chris Hill]

On 20/09/12 14:38, Alberto wrote:

We are looking for a general tag that comprehends all facilities that can
host animals of any kind and for any purpose.


Why? We don't label hospital and hotel in the same way, with some extra 
tags to describe them. They are both places people stay for a while, but 
we recognise they are very different.



Maybe animal shelter doesn't sound very good in some cases, but it is the
most general definition we found.


Why do we need a general definition? Why not just be specific? 
Generality means lots of fiddly extras that no one understands or uses. 
All this namespace stuff is a waste of time, it hardly ever gets used 
(yeah I know about addressing). Just use a single, simple tag and add a 
few optional descriptive tags like dog=yes, cat=no, etc. People 
understand and use that kind of tagging. Surely defining tags is about 
getting it used or is this an exercise in data ontology? Start simply, 
document it, try it out in the real world to see how it is used. Lets 
stop all this computer science tag wanking and think about real mappers 
adding real data as it exists in the real world not having to spend a 
day working out which slot the photo they got surveying should fit into.



It is not true that boarding kennels and adoption kennels are very
different. Here in Italy it is very common that the same kennel offers
boarding and adoption.
So I didn't ignore you, but simply it isn't true that they are always
different. And a worldwide definition must be open to all cases.


Some hospitals have shops in them, so we add a shop tag too. If a 
boarding kennel also runs an animal shelter, just add both tags.



In the definition something tagged as:
amenity=animal_shelter + animal_shelter:boarding=dog
is a boarding kennel, not a wildlife rescue center that would be:
amenity=animal_shelter + animal_shelter:release=wildlife
But the power of the general definition is that you can correctly describe
any mixed case without creating a dedicated key for each case.
For example you can describe a facility that recover stray dogs and gives
them in adoption while it offers boarding for dogs and cats. Or a facility
that recovers any type of wounded animals, including stray dogs, then it
gives dogs and cats in adoption while rehabilitates and releases wild
animals.


You asked for comments, mine is this: boarding kennels will not get 
tagged as animal shelter in the UK. They are totally different things. 
If you ignore these comments then another tag will get used which will 
be different in other countries and more confusion will start. What is 
the point of asking for comments from native speakers then ignoring 
them? We need animal_shelter and animal_boarding as separate tags, 
linked on their wiki pages to each other so if someone finds the wrong 
one they quickly find the other one. Some places might use both tags on 
separate nodes, or separate buildings on one site because both kinds of 
facility operate in the same place.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly





I have a cousin who runs boarding kennels for cats, dogs and a few other
small pets. If he saw his business described on OSM as an animal shelter
he would be horrified.

An animal shelter is a place where abandoned or injured animals are
taken to be cared for. Some stay for life, some pets may be found new
homes and some wild animals that recover from injuries may be released.
The wild animal version and the pet versions are usually separate.
Animal shelters are often run by charities.

Boarding kennels (or a cattery) is a place where pets are boarded for a
while, but their owners return to collect them. A very few boarding
kennels offer quarantine facilities for people bringing animals into a
country from overseas. Kennels are usually run as a business.

Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same way a
charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should describe
them separately.

+1
I have already pointed out how very very wrong the use of the words
animal shelter is in the Kennels thread but it appears to be being
ignored.
http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg11341.html

Most pet owners do not consider their cat or dog an animal, and would
never consider boarding them at an rescue centre. Humans are also
animals.

Catterys often describe themselves as 'Cats Hotel' or 'Cats Motel'.

More upmarket kennels and catterys often provide TV.

Phil


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Re: [Tagging] access restrictions on ways

[André Pirard]

On 2012-09-19 21:39,  Martin Vonwald wrote :

Am 19.09.2012 um 20:36 schrieb André Pirard :

BTW, I'm wondering about that "forward".


If I understood you correct(!) this restriction should block traffic 
going in. If anyone manages to get into the town without passing that 
signpost (don't ask me how) he is allowed to leave town on that road.
There are no weight limit signs anywhere else (don't ask me why, the 
council itself don't know).

*Why not North, East, South and West?*
Clockwise and Anticlockwise or such if we don't want to split Circle 
Line?


Because this might be ambiguous and is much harder to process by data 
consumers.
I don't see exactly why if we consider the ends of the ways and that, as 
data consumer


   * a program can easily deduce a forward/backward if that's its best
 option
   * a human can just just hold the map north up instead of finding the
 nodes order

Only the circle needs special attention and only if it's 8 shaped is it 
a real problem.
I just checked that 
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_line_(London_Underground) 


Clockwise, the new service runs from Hammersmith to Edgware Road, ...

When I was a kid, I used it as a merry go round for a few pence.

But I won't fight for that ;-)

Cordialement,

André.


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[Tagging] Feature Proposal – RFC – Dynamic maxspeed

[Eckhart Wörner]

Hi everybody,

as a follow-up to a previous discussion on this topic here is an RFC that tries 
to improve the dynamic maxspeed situation. The text of the proposal can be 
found here:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Dynamic_maxspeed

Please comment using this list or in the discussion page of the proposal.

Eckhart

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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated

[Alberto]

We are looking for a general tag that comprehends all facilities that can
host animals of any kind and for any purpose.
Maybe animal shelter doesn't sound very good in some cases, but it is the
most general definition we found.
It is not true that boarding kennels and adoption kennels are very
different. Here in Italy it is very common that the same kennel offers
boarding and adoption.
So I didn't ignore you, but simply it isn't true that they are always
different. And a worldwide definition must be open to all cases.
In the definition something tagged as:
amenity=animal_shelter + animal_shelter:boarding=dog
is a boarding kennel, not a wildlife rescue center that would be:
amenity=animal_shelter + animal_shelter:release=wildlife
But the power of the general definition is that you can correctly describe
any mixed case without creating a dedicated key for each case.
For example you can describe a facility that recover stray dogs and gives
them in adoption while it offers boarding for dogs and cats. Or a facility
that recovers any type of wounded animals, including stray dogs, then it
gives dogs and cats in adoption while rehabilitates and releases wild
animals.
Alberto

> I have a cousin who runs boarding kennels for cats, dogs and a few other 
> small pets. If he saw his business described on OSM as an animal shelter 
> he would be horrified.
> 
> An animal shelter is a place where abandoned or injured animals are 
> taken to be cared for. Some stay for life, some pets may be found new 
> homes and some wild animals that recover from injuries may be released. 
> The wild animal version and the pet versions are usually separate. 
> Animal shelters are often run by charities.
> 
> Boarding kennels (or a cattery) is a place where pets are boarded for a 
> while, but their owners return to collect them. A very few boarding 
> kennels offer quarantine facilities for people bringing animals into a 
> country from overseas. Kennels are usually run as a business.
> 
> Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same way a 
> charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should describe 
> them separately.
> 
>+1
>I have already pointed out how very very wrong the use of the words
>animal shelter is in the Kennels thread but it appears to be being
>ignored.
>http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg11341.html
>
>Most pet owners do not consider their cat or dog an animal, and would
>never consider boarding them at an rescue centre. Humans are also
>animals.
>
>Catterys often describe themselves as 'Cats Hotel' or 'Cats Motel'.
>
>More upmarket kennels and catterys often provide TV.
>
>Phil


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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated values?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am 20.09.2012 um 10:46 schrieb Chris Hill :

> Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same way a 
> charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should describe them 
> separately.

+1

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Safety measures on hiking trails

[Rene Maroufi]

Hi,

i created a proposal for safety measures on hiking trails in mountain
regions like ropes, rungs and ladders. These sort of equipment is
frequently found in the alps on hiking paths:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Safety_measures_on_hiking_trails

Please feel free to comment my proposal.

Cheers
René Maroufi
(OSM User: unixasket)
-- 
René Maroufi
i...@maroufi.net

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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated values?

[Philip Barnes]

On Thu, 2012-09-20 at 09:46 +0100, Chris Hill wrote:
> On 19/09/12 23:16, Alberto wrote:
> >
> > Hi everybody, what do you think about using multiple comma separated 
> > values in a key (see 
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator)?
> >
> > In particular about the new proposal “amenity=animal_shelter”.
> >
> > Suppose we need to set a subkey that specifies adoption and boarding 
> > for dogs, cats and rabbits: for simplicity and applications 
> > compatibility would it be better something like:
> >
> > “animal_shelter:dog:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:dog:boarding=yes” 
> > + “animal_shelter:cat:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:cat:boarding=yes 
> > + “animal_shelter:rabbit:adoption=yes” + 
> > “animal_shelter:rabbit:boarding=yes
> >
> > OR
> >
> > “animal_shelter:adoption=dog;cat;rabbit” + 
> > “animal_shelter:boarding=dog;cat;rabbit”?
> >
> > Please post your comments in the discussion page: 
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Animal_shelter
> >
> >
> I have a cousin who runs boarding kennels for cats, dogs and a few other 
> small pets. If he saw his business described on OSM as an animal shelter 
> he would be horrified.
> 
> An animal shelter is a place where abandoned or injured animals are 
> taken to be cared for. Some stay for life, some pets may be found new 
> homes and some wild animals that recover from injuries may be released. 
> The wild animal version and the pet versions are usually separate. 
> Animal shelters are often run by charities.
> 
> Boarding kennels (or a cattery) is a place where pets are boarded for a 
> while, but their owners return to collect them. A very few boarding 
> kennels offer quarantine facilities for people bringing animals into a 
> country from overseas. Kennels are usually run as a business.
> 
> Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same way a 
> charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should describe 
> them separately.
> 
+1
I have already pointed out how very very wrong the use of the words
animal shelter is in the Kennels thread but it appears to be being
ignored.
http://www.mail-archive.com/tagging@openstreetmap.org/msg11341.html

Most pet owners do not consider their cat or dog an animal, and would
never consider boarding them at an rescue centre. Humans are also
animals.

Catterys often describe themselves as 'Cats Hotel' or 'Cats Motel'.

More upmarket kennels and catterys often provide TV.

Phil


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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated values?

[Janko Mihelić]

2012/9/20 Alberto 

> Hi everybody, what do you think about using multiple comma separated
> values in a key (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator)?
>
> In particular about the new proposal “amenity=animal_shelter”.
>
> Suppose we need to set a subkey that specifies adoption and boarding for
> dogs, cats and rabbits: for simplicity and applications compatibility would
> it be better something like:
>
> “animal_shelter:dog:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:dog:boarding=yes” +
> “animal_shelter:cat:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:cat:boarding=yes +
> “animal_shelter:rabbit:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:rabbit:boarding=yes
> 
>
> OR
>
> “animal_shelter:adoption=dog;cat;rabbit” +
> “animal_shelter:boarding=dog;cat;rabbit”?
>
> Please post your comments in the discussion page:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Animal_shelter
>

As for the key, i would prefer service:pet_boarding=cat;dog;rabbit  because
maybe a hotel can have this service for it's guests, or maybe a restaurant
can board your pets while you eat.

As for repeating values, I remember hearing about a future version of osm
database where multiple identical keys would be possible. So you could have:

service:pet_boarding=cat
service:pet_boarding=dog
service:pet_boarding=rabbit

Does anyone know if this is still in our future?


Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Animal_shelter, multiple semicolon separated values?

[Chris Hill]

On 19/09/12 23:16, Alberto wrote:


Hi everybody, what do you think about using multiple comma separated 
values in a key (see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Semi-colon_value_separator)?


In particular about the new proposal “amenity=animal_shelter”.

Suppose we need to set a subkey that specifies adoption and boarding 
for dogs, cats and rabbits: for simplicity and applications 
compatibility would it be better something like:


“animal_shelter:dog:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:dog:boarding=yes” 
+ “animal_shelter:cat:adoption=yes” + “animal_shelter:cat:boarding=yes 
+ “animal_shelter:rabbit:adoption=yes” + 
“animal_shelter:rabbit:boarding=yes


OR

“animal_shelter:adoption=dog;cat;rabbit” + 
“animal_shelter:boarding=dog;cat;rabbit”?


Please post your comments in the discussion page: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Animal_shelter



I have a cousin who runs boarding kennels for cats, dogs and a few other 
small pets. If he saw his business described on OSM as an animal shelter 
he would be horrified.


An animal shelter is a place where abandoned or injured animals are 
taken to be cared for. Some stay for life, some pets may be found new 
homes and some wild animals that recover from injuries may be released. 
The wild animal version and the pet versions are usually separate. 
Animal shelters are often run by charities.


Boarding kennels (or a cattery) is a place where pets are boarded for a 
while, but their owners return to collect them. A very few boarding 
kennels offer quarantine facilities for people bringing animals into a 
country from overseas. Kennels are usually run as a business.


Animal shelter and boarding kennels are very different in the same way a 
charity shop and a supermarket are very different. We should describe 
them separately.


--
Cheers, Chris
user: chillly


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