Re: [Tagging] Tagging camp sites within campground
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:11 PM, Tod Fitch wrote: > For example *camp_site:water=yes/no* may be the same for all > sites/pitches within a campground and tagging it in one place, if > appropriate, assures consistency. (The campground I was looking at when I > started this discussion has piping to various spots and up to about 20 > years ago water was supplied. But with increasing strict water quality > standards and decreasing manpower to maintain and test, the forest service > simply turned off the water and now lists the campground as without water. > Tagging the campground rather than the individual sites/pitches makes more > sense to me in that type of situation.) The current preferred drinking water tap approach is a node with * amenity=drinking_water.* In some cases a non-specific *drinking_water=yes* is added to a larger feature like a toilet or building. For an RV campground with water hookups at each site, I'd suggest mapping the hookup then defining the type (e.g. electric/sewer/potable/non-potable) outside the drinking water scheme. An individual RV site hookup is not a general purpose drinking water site. - As for the tagging scheme: some buy-in from rendering and routing groups would really help strengthen either of the two major proposals. What works better for those efforts? While we don't "tag to the rendering", we want to have "renderable (and routable) tagging". This would involve making a contact on appopriate mailing lists, and getting feedback there. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging camp sites within campground
If I may summarize things to this point, two general proposals have been made:
1. Extend the normal street addressing to include lots, sites or pitches
2. Add a whole new set of tags specific to campsites.
My camping experience has been mostly in the western United States and my views
are affected by that.
With that disclaimer out of the way, it appears that commercial campgrounds
usually have traditional street addresses for the entire complex. For those a
good case can be made that simply adding a addr:unit=* (or other equivalent)
tag will work. Some private campground seem to have named their internal
driveway system. So you could argue for those a traditional addr:street=*,
addr:housenumber=* tag would work, except maybe if it obscures the official
street address for the whole campground.
Most of the public (state parks, USFS, NPS) campgrounds in my area do not have
a street address. At least none posted and it seems inappropriate to me having
a addr:unit tag with no addr:housenumber tag. In addition, I'm not even
positive that there are posted road names for a number of these campgrounds.
There may be a forest route number shown on a forest service map but it may not
be signed in the field. A addr:unit with no addr:street seems even less
appropriate.
I assume uniform tagging is desired for all cases and it does not appear to me
that anything with addr:whatever will work in all cases. So my inclination
would be to follow Andrew Errington's suggestion and use tags specifically
catering to campsites. He proposed the following:
On Jun 17, 2013, at 7:01 AM, Andrew Errington wrote:
> Yes. Instead, I suggest that you use tourism=camp_site and put the name in
> name=*
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site
>
> I would also suggest that addr:*=* is inappropriate for pitches on the site.
> addr:*=* would be for the campsite itself, probably the site office, but if
> there is no address (for the campsite) then you can't make one- just use
> name=* as above.
>
> How about making a set of tags for a pitch? ("pitch" is the area upon which
> the caravan or tent is situated). You can create a node or an area (probably
> a rectangle) and use ref=* for the pitch number. I don't know quite how to
> do the namespace, but something like:
> camp_site=pitch (this is a pitch for a tent or caravan or motorhome)
> camp_site:parking=yes/no (you can park next to your tent)
> camp_site:electric=yes/no (there is an electrical hookup for this pitch)
> camp_site:water=yes/no (there is a water tap for this pitch)
> camp_site:drain=yes/no (there is a grey water drain for this pitch)
> camp_site:type=tent;caravan;motorhome/static (the things we can put on this
> pitch)
> camp_site:surface=grass/gravel/concrete
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Andrew
I think that it would make sense to allow some of those tags to be used on the
way that bounds the entire campground. For example camp_site:water=yes/no may
be the same for all sites/pitches within a campground and tagging it in one
place, if appropriate, assures consistency. (The campground I was looking at
when I started this discussion has piping to various spots and up to about 20
years ago water was supplied. But with increasing strict water quality
standards and decreasing manpower to maintain and test, the forest service
simply turned off the water and now lists the campground as without water.
Tagging the campground rather than the individual sites/pitches makes more
sense to me in that type of situation.)
The Wiki page at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site has been
marked as abandoned. I am new at this and am uncertain of the next step to
follow. Should the page be altered to show renewed interest in the topic? If so
who should alter it? Or should a new page be added with a proposal along the
lines of whatever this mail list thread settles into? How does voting work? Etc.
Thanks!
Tod
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Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
highway=roachcoach_stop? On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 7:47 AM, John Sturdy wrote: > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:44 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: > >> Perhaps we need a tag to indicate a catering vehicle location, as opposed >> to the vehicle itself? >> > > The idea of "highway=bus_stop" with "cuisine=hot_dogs" amuses me, but I > don't think it's really the right tagging. > > :-) > > __John > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
Am 21.06.2013 14:49, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: > On 21/giu/2013, at 14:30, Pieren wrote: > >> Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a >> trailer, will be mapped in several places. > > > I don't see a problem with this as long as the times are predictable. > E.g. in my hometown there is a market (grocery, meat, cheese, etc.) > two specific days a week. The same merchants also sell with their same > vehicles at other places on different days, but that isn't a problem > at all as long as you specify when the market is in this place. The > only difference I see with respect to these trailers, that there is > only one and not a lot of them. +1 But how to map them? Even if it's predictable, that a particular trailer is there every monday: how to state that it's not there the other six days a week? Sure: opening_hours would ensure nobody tries to get something to eat there, but what about: "Let's meet at the hot-dog trailer there on Tuesday, it's on the map" or "go straight and then turn left after you've passed the fish-and-chips trailer". Both is quite feasible for any restaurant or fast-food place, as long as these are there permanently, but that's not the case in what we're talking about here, and this difference can't even be interpreted out of the data if one would like to do so. On top of that I'm sure to remove something like that if it's mapped there but I don't see it - and if there's nothing that it's not visible when closed. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
Am 21.06.2013 14:38, schrieb John Sturdy: > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Pieren wrote: > > I'm inclined to agree that fish-and-chip vans are too mobile for OSM, > although I think we could perhaps map their scheduled stopping points (like > a catering version of bus stops). Probably we should think about something like "place to be used regularly for..." type of tags. Similar things come to mind: - markets that take place at the same location every week: These are clearly different from permanent markets; as e.g. six days a week there's nothing visible about the market. - seasonal beaches, where e.g. the lifeguards tower and toilets are uninstalled during autumn/winter. It's a controlled beach for bathing/swimming regularly, but not always. I'm sure there's more of this kind, but the scheme is the same, and it differs from - one-time stuff (which we usually don't map) - peranent structures (like theme parks, restaurants, or even fish-and-chip-restaurants in a permanent building), even with opening_hours attached. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
2013/6/21 Martin Koppenhoefer > On 21/giu/2013, at 14:30, Pieren wrote: > > > Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a > > trailer, will be mapped in several places. > > > I don't see a problem with this as long as the times are predictable. > E.g. in my hometown there is a market (grocery, meat, cheese, etc.) > two specific days a week. The same merchants also sell with their same > vehicles at other places on different days, but that isn't a problem > at all as long as you specify when the market is in this place. The > only difference I see with respect to these trailers, that there is > only one and not a lot of them. > > and, as stated above by John, it is not the "trailer" that we map in first place, but the service it offers (at certain times), and the subtag would also be simply further detail where the service is offered, it would not necessary have to be interpreted as "the trailer", but "service is in a trailer". cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
On 21/giu/2013, at 14:30, Pieren wrote: > Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a > trailer, will be mapped in several places. I don't see a problem with this as long as the times are predictable. E.g. in my hometown there is a market (grocery, meat, cheese, etc.) two specific days a week. The same merchants also sell with their same vehicles at other places on different days, but that isn't a problem at all as long as you specify when the market is in this place. The only difference I see with respect to these trailers, that there is only one and not a lot of them. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:44 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote: > Perhaps we need a tag to indicate a catering vehicle location, as opposed > to the vehicle itself? > The idea of "highway=bus_stop" with "cuisine=hot_dogs" amuses me, but I don't think it's really the right tagging. :-) __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
Perhaps we need a tag to indicate a catering vehicle location, as opposed to the vehicle itself? Here in Nashville, TN, some of the downtown food truck locations have street parking spaces that have signs specifying food truck parking only. In addition to tagging the parking restrictions, it would be useful to tag when the trucks will actually be present and selling food. Incidentally, while some such vehicles here in Nashville, TN, USA are trailers, the majority are either modified delivery trucks or modified recreational vehicles. Pieren wrote: > On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > > > -> opening_hours or maybe presence_times > > Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a > trailer, will be mapped in several places. > > Pieren > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:30 PM, Pieren wrote: > Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a > trailer, will be mapped in several places. The ones I'm thinking of mapping are either physically in the form of trailers, but static (i.e they have wheels but don't use them, or may even have had the wheels removed), or are trailers/vans that are taken to the same place every day over a long period (there's one in Cambridge, nicknamed "The deathburger van", that's been using the same pitch every evening since I was a student three decades ago, for example). I'm inclined to agree that fish-and-chip vans are too mobile for OSM, although I think we could perhaps map their scheduled stopping points (like a catering version of bus stops). __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > -> opening_hours or maybe presence_times Could we avoid "moving features" in OSM ? Otherwise the same object, a trailer, will be mapped in several places. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
2013/6/21 Philip Barnes > In the UK they are usually trailers. > > > There are also mobile fish and chip vans which move around. They tend to > stop in the same place at the same time each week, and regulars wait for > them to arrive. During an evening they will go to several places. > -> opening_hours or maybe presence_times (otherwise you might expect a closed feature outside the usual times, and not a "driven-away" one) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
In the UK they are usually trailers. There are also mobile fish and chip vans which move around. They tend to stop in the same place at the same time each week, and regulars wait for them to arrive. During an evening they will go to several places. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Nokia N9 On 21/06/2013 12:15 Elliott Plack wrote: John, Sounds similar to something we have in the US, commonly called 'food trucks' here. Are these actually trailers though? In other words, are these vehicles self powered, or towed by another vehicle? On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:21 AM, John Sturdy wrote: How should we map roadside catering trailers, that are either left at a fixed location, or brought to the same location every day (or every weekday)? They're a regular part of UK road culture. Typically, they serve bacon rolls, sausages, etc, and tea and coffee, and are usually open from breakfast time until lunchtime; there are also some that serve kebabs, only in the evening. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
John, Sounds similar to something we have in the US, commonly called 'food trucks' here. Are these actually trailers though? In other words, are these vehicles self powered, or towed by another vehicle? On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:21 AM, John Sturdy wrote: > How should we map roadside catering trailers, that are either left at a > fixed location, or brought to the same location every day (or every > weekday)? They're a regular part of UK road culture. > > Typically, they serve bacon rolls, sausages, etc, and tea and coffee, and > are usually open from breakfast time until lunchtime; there are also some > that serve kebabs, only in the evening. > > __John > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > -- Elliott Plack http://about.me/elliottp ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Catering trailers
On 21/giu/2013, at 12:21, John Sturdy wrote: > How should we map roadside catering trailers, that are either left at a fixed > location, or brought to the same location every day (or every weekday)? > They're a regular part of UK road culture. > > Typically, they serve bacon rolls, sausages, etc, and tea and coffee, and are > usually open from breakfast time until lunchtime; there are also some that > serve kebabs, only in the evening. amenity=fast_food or kiosk? You could add a cuisine tag and maybe something new to express they are in a trailer (e.g. kiosk_type?) Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Catering trailers
How should we map roadside catering trailers, that are either left at a fixed location, or brought to the same location every day (or every weekday)? They're a regular part of UK road culture. Typically, they serve bacon rolls, sausages, etc, and tea and coffee, and are usually open from breakfast time until lunchtime; there are also some that serve kebabs, only in the evening. __John ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - gross weight
On 21/giu/2013, at 01:05, Rob Nickerson wrote: > maxgross_weight: All vehicles have a registered upper limit on their > allowable mass (when fully loaded). This is often known as the "Gross > Weight", and it is found in the vehicle documentation. unfortunately it is more complicated because the amount of axis and eventually the weight of trailers also have to be taken into account, therefore I'd prefer to have a reference from the osm definition (where it applies, e.g. European Union) to the legal documentation or copy these settings from the relevant legal code. (sounds more complicated than it is, I.e. s.th. like "gross weight rating as defined by the law where applicable") As of the suggestion maxgross_weight wouldn't it be better to use gross_maxweight? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
