Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Well... Private messages tell me that boules might be popular outside of France, so here is a translation for a more international debate... According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules a petanque pitch (leisure=pitch) is: sport=boules boules=petanque (375 nodes, 75 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3op) But according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sport it is: sport=boules type=petanque (607 nodes, 111 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oo) Any opinions on a future harmonization of the tagging of boules game types ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 10:00 GMT+01:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: Well... Private messages tell me that boules might be popular outside of France, so here is a translation for a more international debate... According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules a petanque pitch (leisure=pitch) is: sport=boules boules=petanque (375 nodes, 75 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3op) But according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sport it is: sport=boules type=petanque (607 nodes, 111 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oo) Any opinions on a future harmonization of the tagging of boules game types ? type is far too vague - it doesn't namespace at all, so it doesn't make it definite if it's a type of boules, a type of pitch, etc. The english wiki says, and I concur, Key:type should be avoided: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type Much better to standardise on the chaining approach i.e. boules=* (or boules:type=* would have been another possibility in a parallel universe). Luckily, the number of petanque objects is small enough that it's possible to harmonise, so long as the nations can agree :) Just my 2p Dan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
I have mapped some complicated intersections using links to represent turn lanes and other options in very large intersections. The links are connected exactly where they would logically connect one road to the other for each direction. Recently, I have been using Apple's turn by turn directions here in Japan (love it), and they seem to represent complicated intersections in a similar manner. Is there a philosophical or practical downside to representing a non- motorway in this manner? I am insure of how this effects the validity of the data, but for the current renderer, there seems to be no real visual issue, besides the arrows. Looking for feedback. Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 6:00 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: Well... Private messages tell me that boules might be popular outside of France, so here is a translation for a more international debate... According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules a petanque pitch (leisure=pitch) is: sport=boules boules=petanque (375 nodes, 75 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3op) But according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sport it is: sport=boules type=petanque (607 nodes, 111 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oo) Any opinions on a future harmonization of the tagging of boules game types ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
Oops, forgot the link. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=36.40776mlon=139.32700#map=19/36.40776/139.32700 Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 6:14 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I have mapped some complicated intersections using links to represent turn lanes and other options in very large intersections. The links are connected exactly where they would logically connect one road to the other for each direction. Recently, I have been using Apple's turn by turn directions here in Japan (love it), and they seem to represent complicated intersections in a similar manner. Is there a philosophical or practical downside to representing a non- motorway in this manner? I am insure of how this effects the validity of the data, but for the current renderer, there seems to be no real visual issue, besides the arrows. Looking for feedback. Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 6:00 PM, Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org wrote: Well... Private messages tell me that boules might be popular outside of France, so here is a translation for a more international debate... According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules a petanque pitch (leisure=pitch) is: sport=boules boules=petanque (375 nodes, 75 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3op) But according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sport it is: sport=boules type=petanque (607 nodes, 111 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oo) Any opinions on a future harmonization of the tagging of boules game types ? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 2:51 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary It seems that German capitals follow the pattern capital=[lowest admin_level of relations in which the city is admin_centre], except Berlin. because Berlin has the capital=yes (because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ).* *cheers,Martin* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
2014-05-15 11:14 GMT+02:00 John Willis jo...@mac.com: I have mapped some complicated intersections using links to represent turn lanes and other options in very large intersections. The links are connected exactly where they would logically connect one road to the other for each direction. Recently, I have been using Apple's turn by turn directions here in Japan (love it), and they seem to represent complicated intersections in a similar manner. Is there a philosophical or practical downside to representing a non- motorway in this manner? I am insure of how this effects the validity of the data, but for the current renderer, there seems to be no real visual issue, besides the arrows. it is clearly against the conventions to use the tag highway=* for lanes, it is a tag for carriageways. If you want to map lanes you should use another tag. I agree that explicit ways to represent lanes can have some benefits, for example are they much easier to understand and maintain in complex situations then the parametric approach. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 11:07 GMT+02:00 Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com: Much better to standardise on the chaining approach i.e. boules=* this was also discussed on talk-it (and I think talk-de) in the past: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2013-October/038240.html the wiki advocates for boules=* on the tag page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules to which I'm inclined to agree. Current usage is not very intense (80 times), and the top-level approach sport=bocce for the Italian variant is higher still: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sport%3Dbocc* cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
It's very disappointing to see this minor feature rewuest: https://github.com/joto/taginfo/issues/47 summarily closed. Can anyone suggest a work-around or alternative, please? -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 11:07 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote: type is far too vague - it doesn't namespace at all, so it doesn't make it definite if it's a type of boules, a type of pitch, etc. The english wiki says, and I concur, Key:type should be avoided: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:type Much better to standardise on the chaining approach i.e. boules=* (or boules:type=* would have been another possibility in a parallel universe). Luckily, the number of petanque objects is small enough that it's possible to harmonise, so long as the nations can agree :) +1 I don't like the key location=* for the same reasons. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 13:09 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). yes, of course we should only declare those places as admin_centres that are indeed administrative centres (having an administration office is maybe not enough to be a centre). I was thinking of places like these: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Barletta-Andria-Trani (Italian Province with 3 admin centres) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Carbonia-Iglesias (a Province with 2 centres). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Much better to standardise on the chaining approach i.e. boules=* this was also discussed on talk-it (and I think talk-de) in the past: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2013-October/038240.html the wiki advocates for boules=* on the tag page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules to which I'm inclined to agree. +1 Current usage is not very intense (80 times), and the top-level approach sport=bocce for the Italian variant is higher still: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sport%3Dbocc* Not sure to understand you. (there are 30 sport=bocce vs 3871 sport=boules) I would definitely like all types of pentanque/boccia and whatever being tagged the same way, independent of the country. So this would be: leisure=pitch sport=boules boules=pentanque or boules=boccia Or did I get you wrong? nounours ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 13:43 GMT+02:00 nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com: Current usage is not very intense (80 times), and the top-level approach sport=bocce for the Italian variant is higher still: http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sport%3Dbocc* Not sure to understand you. (there are 30 sport=bocce vs 3871 sport=boules) what I meant was that there are only 3 boules=bocce but 30 sport=bocce (given the small total this is not necessarily significant), I'd still advocate for sport=boules together with boules=bocce. I would definitely like all types of pentanque/boccia and whatever being tagged the same way, independent of the country. the thing is to determine whether a sport is a kind of boules or is a sport of its own. There is a list here for instance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boules#Games but I wouldn't necessarily include this one as subtype of boules (on the list it is) when using a tag in osm to specify a pitch: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowls but maybe rather use a dedicated main type (sport=bowls). Indeed this is what you can also find reflected in the current usage: 6 291 *sport* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport *bowls* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sport=bowls boules=bowls - 0 cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Interesting. So it is in fact a rendered-related issue. Since you've pointed out exactly where the problem is in the code, wouldn't it be better to just submit a fix and standardize the mapping practice on capital=[lowest admin_level of related boundary relations]? AFAIK this should only affect rendering programs (not routing nor indexing). On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 6:31 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-05-15 2:51 GMT+02:00 Fernando Trebien fernando.treb...@gmail.com: And some of these relations (though far from the top of the list) are not assigned an admin_centre role, even though the node exists. btw.: The current definition for administrative relations says that admin_centre should be used one or no time in the relation, but what if there is more than one admin_centre, e.g. entities where the administration is split over 2 (or maybe more) places? My suggestion would be to change this part of the relation definition in order to allow special cases: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:boundary It seems that German capitals follow the pattern capital=[lowest admin_level of relations in which the city is admin_centre], except Berlin. because Berlin has the capital=yes (because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
(because of current mapnik rules capital=yes should be preferred over capital=2, as the style sheet only takes account of capital=yes or not yes: *https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/project.mml ).* I disagree with that. capital=yes is ambiguous and capital=2 should be preferred Mapnik rules can be changed as time allows. I wouldn't be surprised capital=yes isn't really used only on capital=2 cases. When there are more than one admin_centre, perhaps we could simply use the role label instead of the role admin_centre. It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890 ) 2014-05-15 8:36 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2014-05-15 13:09 GMT+02:00 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Why not. But the definition shall be clear : it's only the administrative(s) centre(s) place(s) to be linked. The risk if we don't specify a limit is that contributors will use it to link all places within the boundary (making a substitute of the infamous is_in tag). yes, of course we should only declare those places as admin_centres that are indeed administrative centres (having an administration office is maybe not enough to be a centre). I was thinking of places like these: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Barletta-Andria-Trani (Italian Province with 3 admin centres) http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provincia_di_Carbonia-Iglesias (a Province with 2 centres). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890) Not necessarily though. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands and located in North Holland province, but not the capital of that province (which is Haarlem). Some more strange cases: - The administratively centre is not always equal to the ceremonial capital. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but The Hague is the administrative centre. - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
On Thu, 2014-05-15 at 11:00 +0200, Jean-Marc Liotier wrote: Well... Private messages tell me that boules might be popular outside of France, so here is a translation for a more international debate... According to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dboules a petanque pitch (leisure=pitch) is: sport=boules boules=petanque (375 nodes, 75 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3op) But according to http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Key:sport it is: sport=boules type=petanque (607 nodes, 111 ways - http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oo) Any opinions on a future harmonization of the tagging of boules game types ? In the UK some pubs have boules pitches, I think it is known petanque here, but boules makes more sense to me. Phil (trigpoint) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Am 15.05.2014 um 14:00 schrieb tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org: Indeed this is what you can also find reflected in the current usage: 6 291 *sport* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport *bowls* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sport=bowls boules=bowls - 0 So should we then go with leisure=pitch sport=bowls bowls=bowls | pentanque | boccia | whatever nounours___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Sorry, I meant the adminstrative centre of the state's capital city It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as *the state's *capital city administrative centre. 2014-05-15 9:23 GMT-03:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: It is currently used in states to indicate where to place the node of the state name, because the administrative centre of a state tends to be the same as it's capital city administrative centre. (example of the label role: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/539668890 ) Not necessarily though. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands and located in North Holland province, but not the capital of that province (which is Haarlem). Some more strange cases: - The administratively centre is not always equal to the ceremonial capital. For example, Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but The Hague is the administrative centre. - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
On 15/05/2014 14:43, nounours77 wrote: bowls=bowls | petanque | bocce | whatever One could argue that locale=c would lead us toward using 'bowls' but on the other hand even the English-language Wikipedia article for bocce mentions that it is a ball sport belonging to the boules sport family thus hinting that 'boules' is the correct term for the main sport=* tag. The international spread of sport=boules validates that: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oy So I would lean toward: leisure=pitch sport=boules boules=petanque|whatever ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On 5/15/14 8:57 AM, Pieren wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). some definitions to keep in mind: capital - a city serving as a seat of government capitol - building in which a state legislature meets these are US usage, not sure if British usage is different. http://www.50states.com/tools/use.htm#.U3S811hdX4o richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
Am 15.05.2014 11:18, schrieb John Willis: Oops, forgot the link. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=36.40776mlon=139.32700#map=19/36.40776/139.32700 And you did hijack another thread. Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 6:14 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I have mapped some complicated intersections using links to represent turn lanes and other options in very large intersections. The links are connected exactly where they would logically connect one road to the other for each direction. Recently, I have been using Apple's turn by turn directions here in Japan (love it), and they seem to represent complicated intersections in a similar manner. Is there a philosophical or practical downside to representing a non- motorway in this manner? I am insure of how this effects the validity of the data, but for the current renderer, there seems to be no real visual issue, besides the arrows. Looking for feedback. -100 In my town we did revert lots of intersection mapped like this. If you want to map lanes please use *:lanes. All explained in the wiki [1]. If you tag like this a router will not direct you to the appropriate lane once you did pass the connection node. Only split highway=* if there is a physical barrier in between. E.g. the picture on the wiki page above would be still only on OSM way with two lanes in one and three lanes in the other direction (forward/backward). Cheers fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Am 15.05.2014 15:01, schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier: On 15/05/2014 14:43, nounours77 wrote: bowls=bowls | petanque | bocce | whatever One could argue that locale=c would lead us toward using 'bowls' but on the other hand even the English-language Wikipedia article for bocce mentions that it is a ball sport belonging to the boules sport family thus hinting that 'boules' is the correct term for the main sport=* tag. The international spread of sport=boules validates that: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oy So I would lean toward: leisure=pitch sport=boules boules=petanque|whatever +1 boules=bocce;bocce_volo;boccia;bowls;petanque;* fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 15.05.2014 14:57, schrieb Pieren: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Some more strange cases: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). So far I did use admin_centre only for the capital but I guess this does not work in the Netherlands where the capital is not the seat of the parliament. Another example for multi-admin-centres are the Azores. There the executive, legislative and judicial branches have been split to different cities on different islands. All together it seems we need to separate admin_centre and capital as soon as they are different and/or as soon as more than one admin_centre is defined. Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
If you want to map lanes you should use another tag. Is there a suggestion for a tag that would be appropriate, or is that a thing lost in proposal purgatory? I am not representing individual lanes, but choices (aka, the two through lanes are a single way). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
Yeah, turn:lanes=*. JOSM even has presets and rendering options available to help tag these. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:turn is pretty much The Way To Go at this point, it seems. On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:40 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: If you want to map lanes you should use another tag. Is there a suggestion for a tag that would be appropriate, or is that a thing lost in proposal purgatory? I am not representing individual lanes, but choices (aka, the two through lanes are a single way). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On 15/05/2014 13:23, Matthijs Melissen wrote: - The administrative centre of a region might be licated outside the region in administers. For example, the city of Częstochowa is the administrative centre of Częstochowa county, but the city is not part of the county (the county forms a ring around the city). This is even more true of Surrey in England, whose county town (capital) is Kingston in the neighbouring Greater London: http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/57582?mlat=51.4049540555035mlon=-0.305049035418748#map=10/51.2787/-0.3296 -- Steve --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
Umm... Isn't this merely the tagging mailing list? I was unaware that sending an email to the list was a form of hijacking in any respect. I didn't steal the subject line... Maybe I'm missing something. I will recheck the wiki re lanes. I thought I had understood the basic options, it seems there is more than I realize. I will try to undo my incorrect edits. J Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 10:55 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 15.05.2014 11:18, schrieb John Willis: Oops, forgot the link. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=36.40776mlon=139.32700#map=19/36.40776/139.32700 And you did hijack another thread. Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 6:14 PM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: I have mapped some complicated intersections using links to represent turn lanes and other options in very large intersections. The links are connected exactly where they would logically connect one road to the other for each direction. Recently, I have been using Apple's turn by turn directions here in Japan (love it), and they seem to represent complicated intersections in a similar manner. Is there a philosophical or practical downside to representing a non- motorway in this manner? I am insure of how this effects the validity of the data, but for the current renderer, there seems to be no real visual issue, besides the arrows. Looking for feedback. -100 In my town we did revert lots of intersection mapped like this. If you want to map lanes please use *:lanes. All explained in the wiki [1]. If you tag like this a router will not direct you to the appropriate lane once you did pass the connection node. Only split highway=* if there is a physical barrier in between. E.g. the picture on the wiki page above would be still only on OSM way with two lanes in one and three lanes in the other direction (forward/backward). Cheers fly [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 9:46 AM, John Willis jo...@mac.com wrote: Umm... Isn't this merely the tagging mailing list? I was unaware that sending an email to the list was a form of hijacking in any respect. I didn't steal the subject line... Maybe I'm missing something. You replied to another message in a thread rather than starting a new thread. You may want to look up how email threading works for the vast majority of the internet. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
Am 15.05.2014 16:46, schrieb John Willis: Umm... Isn't this merely the tagging mailing list? I was unaware that sending an email to the list was a form of hijacking in any respect. I didn't steal the subject line... Maybe I'm missing something. The problem is that if you do reply on a different subject even if changing the content it is still a reply and will be sorted below the message you reply to. This way it can be easily overlooked. If you want to open a new subject/thread, please send a new message and not a reply. I will recheck the wiki re lanes. I thought I had understood the basic options, it seems there is more than I realize. I will try to undo my incorrect edits. J Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2014, at 10:55 PM, fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com wrote: Am 15.05.2014 11:18, schrieb John Willis: Oops, forgot the link. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=36.40776mlon=139.32700#map=19/36.40776/139.32700 And you did hijack another thread. Thanks fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 15:12 GMT+02:00 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net: We could create an additional role (e.g. capital) when the admin_centre is not the capital (and only in this case to avoid unnecessary duplicates). some definitions to keep in mind: capital - a city serving as a seat of government capitol - building in which a state legislature meets these are US usage, not sure if British usage is different. capital should be for the capital city as it usually is defined in the constitution or some other law, and should not be confused with the seat of the government (IMHO). The US isn't a good example because the capital happens to be the same as the seat of government. Capitol is the name of the building of the american Congress, I am not aware of other countries using this term and I wouldn't include this into the country relation but would rather use a distinct tag to make it retrievable. For the seat of government I'd use a new role (seat_of_government seams intuitive). This might imply new problems in some cases btw., for instance in Germany parts of the government (6 federal ministries and all second seats of the other ministries) remained in Bonn as part of the compromise settled when the parliament decided to transfer the seat of government to Berlin in the 1990ies. cheer, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
On 15.05.2014 12:36, Andy Mabbett wrote: It's very disappointing to see this minor feature rewuest: https://github.com/joto/taginfo/issues/47 summarily closed. Can anyone suggest a work-around or alternative, please? Write the name of the tag as a level 3 or 4 headline above the box? I'm not sure what difference it makes for you whether the tag is within the box or directly above it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Large, multilane road tagging question
2014-05-15 16:40 GMT+02:00 John Willis jo...@mac.com: If you want to map lanes you should use another tag. Is there a suggestion for a tag that would be appropriate, or is that a thing lost in proposal purgatory? well, proposals are just that: suggestions. I am not aware of any proposal dealing with explicitly mapped lanes (i.e. those with their own geometry) but I have started a proposal that might be able to deal with them a long time ago: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Area Problem is the complexity you add when you map things like this, you would have to maintain 2 ways of mapping at the same time: implicit lanes (defined by tags on highways) and explicit lanes overlapping the former. If you do not keep the implicit version working you will get a lot of problems with other mappers ;-) and this implies you'll have to connect the highways (carriageways) like we do now, and overlay the lanes as geometry and tags on top of that, and you'd have to flag the highways that are not real but abstract versions (simplified connections between highways mapped in the first model) as such so that the explicit-lanes enabled dataconsumers will know where to substitute the generalized highways with explicit lanes. I am not representing individual lanes, but choices (aka, the two through lanes are a single way). Maybe you'd be better off with parametric mapping as suggested here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 14:43 GMT+02:00 nounours77 kuessemondtaegl...@gmail.com: Indeed this is what you can also find reflected in the current usage: 6 291 *sport* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sport *bowls* http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/sport=bowls boules=bowls - 0 So should we then go with leisure=pitch sport=bowls bowls=bowls | pentanque | boccia | whatever -1 what I meant to say was: sport=boules boules=petanque | bocce | boules | etc. is fine for me, but I wouldn't add boules=bowls to this list because it seems quite different (e.g. the pitch is grass and not sand or gravel). Instead sport=bowls is perfectly valid and used twice as much as all kinds of boules together. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
On 15 May 2014 16:06, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 15.05.2014 12:36, Andy Mabbett wrote: It's very disappointing to see this minor feature request: https://github.com/joto/taginfo/issues/47 summarily closed. Can anyone suggest a work-around or alternative, please? Write the name of the tag as a level 3 or 4 headline above the box? I'm not sure what difference it makes for you whether the tag is within the box or directly above it. The box is an HTML table; the name should be in, (if not the label of) that table, for accesibility and machine-readability. It's also not sensible to have headings above each, when placing two or more instances side-by-side, for comparison. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
On 15 May 2014 11:36, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: It's very disappointing to see this minor feature rewuest: https://github.com/joto/taginfo/issues/47 summarily closed. Can anyone suggest a work-around or alternative, please? In the interim, I've created a wrapper template at: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Template:Taginfo_wrapper but this functionality should be integrated. -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Am 15.05.2014 18:14, schrieb Jean-Marc Liotier: On 15/05/2014 17:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: but I wouldn't add boules=bowls to this list because it seems quite different (e.g. the pitch is grass and not sand or gravel). Instead sport=bowls is perfectly valid and used twice as much as all kinds of boules together. Sound reasonable to me - I'll leave sport=bowls alone. Pretty much everyone has agreed that the type=* is being abused and that chaining sport=boules;boules=petanque is cleaner so I'm going to correct the 718 occurrences of sport=boules;type=petanque into sport=boules;boules=petanque. This would be an automatic edit and at least should be open for discussion for more than some days. I might also do it for sport=boules;type=bocce which would become sport=boules;boules=bocce. There are 1093 occurrences of sport=boules;type=* : http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oF Well then why not use boules:type ? fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 18:14 GMT+02:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org: I might also do it for sport=boules;type=bocce which would become sport=boules;boules=bocce. +1, there is also 1 type=boccia which might be normalized to bocce. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
On 15/05/2014 18:22, fly wrote: Pretty much everyone has agreed that the type=* is being abused and that chaining sport=boules;boules=petanque is cleaner so I'm going to correct the 718 occurrences of sport=boules;type=petanque into sport=boules;boules=petanque. This would be an automatic edit and at least should be open for discussion for more than some days. Yes - I'll let it cool down for a while. I might also do it for sport=boules;type=bocce which would become sport=boules;boules=bocce. There are 1093 occurrences of sport=boules;type=* : http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/3oF Well then why not use boules:type ? From messages here, on talk and on talk-fr, there seem to be a consensus about namespace chaining such as sport=boules;boules=bocce. No one has offered sport=boules;boules:type=bocce - maybe because the boules namespace most probably won't expand into complexity that justifies subkeys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
Am 15.05.2014 18:24, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: 2014-05-15 18:14 GMT+02:00 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org mailto:j...@liotier.org: I might also do it for sport=boules;type=bocce which would become sport=boules;boules=bocce. +1, there is also 1 type=boccia which might be normalized to bocce. Wikipedia makes a difference between boccia and bocce, even if it is just the italian name. fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 18:32 GMT+02:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. +1 The idea of adding capital=numeric to place nodes was to have a simple tag for administrative importance. This is not an alternative to add a place as admin_centre into a proper administrative relation. Keep it simple, use the lowest number. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Wait a minute. As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply substitute admin_level. capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this country (which has admin_level=2). capital=4 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this state (which usually has admin_level=4) capital=2;4 would mean this city is the capital city of the country AND state. Is my current understanding of this key wrong? 2014-05-15 13:32 GMT-03:00 Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
2014-05-15 18:30 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Wikipedia makes a difference between boccia and bocce, even if it is just the italian name. the Italian wikipedia states that Boccia is Bocce for disabled people, the english WP says it is something very similar. I am no expert in this field but had always assumed that both are the same (bocce is the Italian plural of boccia). In doubt, leave it as it is. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
2014-05-15 18:52 GMT+02:00 John Packer john.pack...@gmail.com: Wait a minute. As far as I understood, the key capital=* isn't supposed to simply substitute admin_level. capital=2 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this country (which has admin_level=2). capital=4 means this city (which the node represents) is the capital city of this state (which usually has admin_level=4) capital=2;4 would mean this city is the capital city of the country AND state. Is my current understanding of this key wrong? I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capital=2;4 doesn't make much sense then. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
I'd see it like this: capital=2 this place is the capital of a country capital=4 this place is the capital of a region (etc.) i.e. you can see the administrative importance, but there is no notion of which entity the place is the capital. capital=2;4 doesn't make much sense then. You are ignoring that most (BUT NOT ALL!!!) country capitals are also state (region) capitals. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] boules=petanque vs. type=petanque
On 05/15/2014 06:41 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014-05-15 18:30 GMT+02:00 fly lowfligh...@googlemail.com mailto:lowfligh...@googlemail.com: Wikipedia makes a difference between boccia and bocce, even if it is just the italian name. the Italian wikipedia states that Boccia is Bocce for disabled people, the english WP says it is something very similar. I am no expert in this field but had always assumed that both are the same (bocce is the Italian plural of boccia). In doubt, leave it as it is. I certainly don't intend to touch the values - just the tagging scheme... I'll leave the boccia vs. bocce debate to talk-it ! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
Tagging capital=* or admin_level=* on a place is IMHO not to be done lightly. It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and an (administrative) area. So the place and the area (represented by a relation in OSM) may reference each other, for example by including the place in the relation with a role such as admin_centre. Because a place cannot be a capital in and of itself (it can only be a capital OF somewhere) putting these tags on the place node is a denormalisation - to make things more convenient for the data consumers, so they don't have to go through the relations to see if a place is a capital or not. Such denormalisations are not always a Bad Thing (it's a balance), but there must be an acceptance that there is only One Truth, and zero or more derivatives. The One Truth would be in the relations and we will need a mechanism (or at least an algorithm) to derive the tagging for the place from the relations which reference it. capital=2 only means it's the capital of A country. Without a link to the country in question, this tag could be misused to increase prominence on the maps, AKA mapping (incorrectly) for the renderer, which is frowned upon. So I say let's ban capital=* and admin_level=* on the place nodes! Colin. On 2014-05-15 19:36, fly wrote: Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] capital and state_capital: how are they being used in your country?
On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: It is not actually an attribute of the place at all, because if you moved the place to e.g. the middle of the Atlantic Ocean it would no longer be a capital. It is an attribute of the relationship between the place and an (administrative) area. So the place and the area (represented by a relation in OSM) may reference each other, for example by including the place in the relation with a role such as admin_centre. Because a place cannot be a capital in and of itself (it can only be a capital OF somewhere) putting these tags on the place node is a denormalisation - to make things more convenient for the data consumers, so they don't have to go through the relations to see if a place is a capital or not. Such denormalisations are not always a Bad Thing (it's a balance), but there must be an acceptance that there is only One Truth, and zero or more derivatives. The One Truth would be in the relations and we will need a mechanism (or at least an algorithm) to derive the tagging for the place from the relations which reference it. +1 Note: because apps need to support certain kinds of relations (turn restrictions, multipolygon rendering, etc.), it should be easy (as far as I can imagine the algorithm) to extend such support (without sacrificing performance) to figure out whether a city is a capital by reading the list of members of the relations the city's node is a member of. capital=2 only means it's the capital of A country. Without a link to the country in question, this tag could be misused to increase prominence on the maps, AKA mapping (incorrectly) for the renderer, which is frowned upon. +1 So I say let's ban capital=* and admin_level=* on the place nodes! I tend to agree, and I don't see yet any practical situation where using those tags is absolutely necessary and reading from a relation is not possible/too difficult. Colin. On 2014-05-15 19:36, fly wrote: Am 15.05.2014 18:32, schrieb Andreas Goss: Am 5/15/14 16:30 , schrieb fly: Regarding the original discussion I am in favour of using capital=[2-10]* if an additional tag is needed. I meant additional to the roles for the boundary relation above (cutted). admin_centre for 1 or more nodes capital if not equal to admin_centre or more than one admin_centre present. The semicolon (;) is defined as value separator so we could have capital=4;6;8 or similar. This just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. I also don't see why it would be needed. You are doubling the risk of errors when it comes to admin_levels. Now you don't just have to ensure all relations are correct, but also all nodes. As we are talking about admin_level (- capital) on nodes and it was mentioned that it might be easier to use and I am not sure if it is used. If any I would go with capital=* and not admin_level=* You also have no reference to those numbers. When you add one admin_level to a relation that relation has a name (Bavaria is a state). When placing admin_centre you know the name of the relation and of the city so you can make a connection (Munich is the capital of Bavaria). And while that maybe is obvious at level 2 and 4, it becomes more compicated when you get into smaller administrative areas. This also makes it more complicated to find errors in the first place. I also bet that people are going to assume that some numbers are missing and are simply going to add them, especially as it varies from country to country, from state to state etc. Others might simply add a number with good intend, because they had the wrong admin_levels in mind. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 Nullius in verba. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
Hi, oops, silly me, hadn't read the full thread. I see you already found a way to annoy Jochen even without my help ;) Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Making TagInfo more useful
On 15 May 2014 20:56, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: summarily closed. Can you summarily do something to a single thing? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/summarily then definition 2 on https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/summary -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
