Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:11 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: That looks really good. Some graphic designers need to remake the shields for icon size (bigger lettering, details ignored), but the system of putting on the roads looks great. amItheOnlyOneHere.png that thinks, in the vast majority of cases, using the sign type you'd actually see on the highway is useful, particularly for unusual cases? For example, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority shields are really that hard to read when you're on the highway, so it's good to know you're only expecting a symbol as something recognizable in either case. http://bl.ocks.org/ToeBee/raw/6119134/#16/36.0448/-95.7380 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
On 11/28/14 2:26 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:11 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com wrote: That looks really good. Some graphic designers need to remake the shields for icon size (bigger lettering, details ignored), but the system of putting on the roads looks great. amItheOnlyOneHere.png that thinks, in the vast majority of cases, using the sign type you'd actually see on the highway is useful, particularly for unusual cases? For example, the Oklahoma Turnpike Authority shields are really that hard to read when you're on the highway, so it's good to know you're only expecting a symbol as something recognizable in either case. http://bl.ocks.org/ToeBee/raw/6119134/#16/36.0448/-95.7380 i'll argue also that it's a rendering choice, and different rendering engine designers may choose differently. right now, what Phil did is basically for demo purposes. there had been talk about maybe deploying it on openstreetmap.us as a us centered version of OSM, but that hasn't happened (and it's been a while). what it demonstrates quite effectively is that we have all the tagging we need for shields right now; we don't need a new tagging proposal, just a lot of hard work building out the relations and tagging them properly. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
I've been trying to understand the issues that keep us from having Pictural Route Shields. The issue is on github [1] but as best as I can understand, it gets down to how we (US) tag routes. From talking to Paul Norman we need to fix the tagging problems before we can get pictural route shields. Toby has a working demo [2] up on the openstreetmap us servers. According to Toby, the US Interstate routes are in good shape. We probably need to work on State and US routes. Not having done much route relationships, except to break a few, I can't offer much support. However with Martijn Exel help using Maproulette we could go after broken relationships. I propose we ask for pictural shields on interstate routes while working on completing the US and State routes. [1] https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/596 [2] http://benzene.osm.osuosl.org/~toby/shields.html Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
Kind of thought this was settled already, even in the strange cases of states with multiple highway networks (Oklahoma, Texas, Missouri, to name three). On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I've been trying to understand the issues that keep us from having Pictural Route Shields. The issue is on github [1] but as best as I can understand, it gets down to how we (US) tag routes. From talking to Paul Norman we need to fix the tagging problems before we can get pictural route shields. Toby has a working demo [2] up on the openstreetmap us servers. According to Toby, the US Interstate routes are in good shape. We probably need to work on State and US routes. Not having done much route relationships, except to break a few, I can't offer much support. However with Martijn Exel help using Maproulette we could go after broken relationships. I propose we ask for pictural shields on interstate routes while working on completing the US and State routes. [1] https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/596 [2] http://benzene.osm.osuosl.org/~toby/shields.html Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
i think this has kind of wandered off topic for tagging, as no new tagging needs to be developed... On 11/28/14 6:39 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: Kind of thought this was settled already, even in the strange cases of states with multiple highway networks (Oklahoma, Texas, Missouri, to name three). On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I've been trying to understand the issues that keep us from having Pictural Route Shields. The issue is on github [1] but as best as I can understand, it gets down to how we (US) tag routes. From talking to Paul Norman we need to fix the tagging problems before we can get pictural route shields. well, there's also a need to actually get the route shield code into place on whatever rendering engine is deemed appropriate. Toby has a working demo [2] up on the openstreetmap us servers. yes; this is a demo of Phil's solution. i have help a bit with shield configuration files for NYS and tagging of NYS routes. the links i posted the other day are to this demo server. According to Toby, the US Interstate routes are in good shape. We probably need to work on State and US routes. Not having done much route relationships, except to break a few, I can't offer much support. However with Martijn Exel help using Maproulette we could go after broken relationships. a lot of US and state routes are done. in NYS coverage is pretty good; there are some state routes missing, and county routes are mostly done on the east side of the state. I propose we ask for pictural shields on interstate routes while working on completing the US and State routes. there are a couple of elements to consider here. in addition to building relations, there are these other elements: providing appropriate base svg files for shields that don't currently have them. i don't know how many of these are yet to be developed providing configuration files that guide the pre population of the route shields of various types (i did a bit of this for NYS county routes a year or so back). as i understand it, the demo is based on mapnik styles pre carto, and some work would need to be done to move it to carto. what standard do we want to set for deploying shields? the demo displays shields when relations are set up and displays the old style oval ref element otherwise. so there's no technical reason why we can't look at alternate, incremental approaches. i think that knowing that your shields will show up as soon as you build relations could be a powerful motivator. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Various alt_name values?
Okay. I’ll try a summary: We have the choise between two systems: – semicolon system – alt_name_1 system (Other versions like alt_name:1 or alt_name1 seem to be not interesting and have very little occurence in the database, probably errors during the HOT imports). Both have its advantages and disadvantages. Having both systems at the same time in use does not make it easier: In the database, we have currently about 2300 nodes and about 3000 ways with the key “alt_name” and the character “;” in the value. We have also about 3800 nodes with “alt_name_” as part of the key. Almost all of them are in West Africa and come probably from recent HOT activity. We have about 80 ways with “alt_name_” as part of the key. (Roland Olbricht had done some overpass stuff about this at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2014-September/070863.html) On the wiki, we have alt_name_* since 2011 (introduced at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key:nameoldid=713311 on the wiki – I could not find a discussion about that) but people did not use this system, but they almost always used the semicolon system instead. Until the HOT activity with the Ebola response … In this current thread, both solutions have had supporters, but there has been some more support for the semicolon system. The current situation with two different, incompatible solutions is IMHO not satisfying. So I would propose to 1.) do a formal voting (I would propose the semicolon system) 2.) after that: ask for support for this in Nomination (and maybe other software on which the HOT people rely) for the voted and accepted solution 3.) as mid-term goal: fade out the usage of the not-accepted solution (maybe later even with a mechanical edit – not sure if this is easy) 4.) as long-term goal: ask software to stop using the not-accepted solution. Thoughts? Lukas Sommer 2014-11-27 15:21 GMT+00:00 Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 6:23 PM, Brian Quinion openstreet...@brian.quinion.co.uk wrote: On 25 November 2014 at 13:30, althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote: I don't even know which keys are currently under use by Nominatim and other data consumers and how that could evolve in the future. At the moment nominatim supports alt_name_[0-9]+:language_code=name for alt names I've added this to the wiki +1 This is also how I have done it when I've worked with names. I do not like semicolons at all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] custom road ref shields
On Nov 29, 2014, at 4:26 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 10:11 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com mailto:jo...@mac.com wrote: That looks really good. Some graphic designers need to remake the shields for icon size (bigger lettering, details ignored), but the system of putting on the roads looks great. amItheOnlyOneHere.png that thinks, in the vast majority of cases, using the sign type you'd actually see on the highway is useful, particularly for unusual cases? I’m commenting on the legibility of those icons. When you think of any professional “logo” you see, there are at least 3 different versions of them, and sometimes over 20 or 30, because of the job of the logo to be done at it’s printed size and scale is to be legible and recognizable. Taking a logo made for something the size of a cereal box, and blowing it up to something the size of a billboard would look horrible, and shrinking it down to a business card, or, in this case, an icon, is equally as horrible. I’m not talking pixelation, I’m talking that the design itself changes - larger or bolder lettering, larger or thinner lining, different spacing - all of it changes as you go up or down, especially down in size. And with the current implementation of OSM, pixelation is also a serious issue as well. The goal is to make your brain think it is the same by increasing legibility by reducing detail in a way that doesn’t remove your ability to recognize it immediately. https://foliovision.com/images/2009/01/resize-article-1.jpg https://foliovision.com/images/2009/01/resize-article-1.jpg In this example, look at the detail of the house. there is so much detail on the house that it is a hindrance when scaled down. The other icon is drawn for the size, and details are omitted, but clearly makes it easier to recognize it as “that house”. Almost every single “icon” ever made is is purpose-built for the job of being an icon. Shrinking signage down is still recognizable, but is not a good icon. That’s why most shields are simple shapes with strong border lines. Someone is making generic highway makers on wikipedia already, as at 20px the county names are illegible distractions. The borders are thicker as well, so they show properly at 20px. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CR_21C_jct_wide.svg http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CR_21C_jct_wide.svg would be a better choice of icons than the “columbia 21C county” currently in Phil’s test. But since we’re puling the icons from wikipedia (or somewhere similar), and they are straight scale-downs of the larger road signs, there isn’t much we can do about it, unless someone decides to draw up new icons for the hard-to-read ones, such as the completely illegible Taconic State Parkway icon - Is it the bronx river parkway, the Sprain River parkway or what? they al have the same tiny, unreadable crap icon at that level. With such unusually wordy signs, Acronyms might have to be used. Phil’s implementation of putting the icons on the road looks great. Just bringing to people’s attention that icons eventually need to be custom made for this job - as legibility is paramount. Javbw Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Various alt_name values?
On 29 Nov 2014 00:26, Lukas Sommer sommer...@gmail.com wrote: Okay. I’ll try a summary: We have the choise between two systems: – semicolon system – alt_name_1 system I added support for alt_name_1 because this kept coming up and people were actively abusing alt_name:1 because it happened to work (the :1 actually ends up interpreted as a language and while this could be fixed the combination of language and array using the same syntax adds a lot of complexity and confusion). ; is just a bad way of doing it without the ability to escape ; and universal editor support (which at this point is probably impossible). It also makes storage much more complex since it breaks key=value pairing. I'd say it was a bad idea and just about anything is better. alt_name[1] that colin suggested is interesting and potentially unambiguous. It also has the advantage of making sense to a coder and not requiring special support in editors for magic escape characters. -- Brian ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
