Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Hi - It doesn't make sense to me to have a specific tag for fuel and convenience. Maybe I misunderstand you. I would say, keep copying the addresses! There are lots of situations where multiple co-located items have the same address, e.g. a small post office inside a supermarket. If you invented a new tag it would be harder for people to find the convenience shop... Best Dan 2014-12-05 5:19 GMT+00:00 Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. Regards, Hans ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] New tag value in access? authorised [fork from: access in the wiki]
/ DISCLAIMER / Starting new thread for side topics from: [Tagging] access in the wiki I would happily read more feedback from Martin and other contributors on authorised because it would certainly help with some limited traffic zone, bus lanes, residential streets... (2) proposing access=authorised Would another generic value like access=authorised allow a useful distinction from access=private? Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: no, its the same Quite a short answer and I am not convinced yet. private: Only with permission of the owner on an individual basis. - Apply on a private road for residents, privately invited people, very local delivery...; it has some overlap with *=destination and *=delivery. authorised: Only with authorisation (from public authority) by regulations (=collective basis) and special exemptions. - Apply on a public road for special permits, emergency vehicles...; it does often include emergency vehicles at least but it is not limited to them. Anyway in most cases people wondering do I have access? simply do not have access. If you have access you know it. Did you look at some of the examples in the links [7,8,9,10]? I feel private is not suitable there. How are tagged today the real-world authorised vehicles exemptions or signs with authorised vehicles only? I don't think a bus lane with special exemptions for authorised vehicles should be tagged motor_vehicle=private. Nor that private can be used on any street or public road with no private 'owner'. As I understand you consider that the 'public owner' (city or country or whichever administrative level) can be viewed as the 'private owner giving permission on an individual basis'. IMO that is quite a twisted and misleading use of the words private/public. So... did I miss something? Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: this won't work (we should have vehicle specific tags, not general ones), and authorized as a value seems the same than private. In the existing access scheme: tag-values can be applied to access=* or to a specific transport mode tag-keys. * [access=private] is valid * [motorcar=private] is also valid See also Tag:access=designated NOTE! The exact key/value combination access=designated should never appear on an object. This page is here to describe the meaning of the 'designated' access tag, If I propose access=authorised I want to imply possibility of tagging for [any_specific_mode]=authorised. [access=authorised] or [motor_vehicle=authorised] could work. [7] http://c8.alamy.com/comp/ABFKH9/red-white-bicycles-sign-blue-sticker-art-graffiti-excepte-vehicles-ABFKH9.jpg [8] http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/e8/2d/45/e82d45efd50dad3fe23a9540fc52d09a.jpg [9] https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/.imaging/stk/SCC-Home/standard-small/dms/scc/management/corporate-communications/images/roads-transport/roads-signs/signs/Bus-lane-cameras/document/Bus-lane-cameras-sign.jpg [10] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Panneau_interdiction_sauf_v%C3%A9hicules_autoris%C3%A9s.JPG/337px-Panneau_interdiction_sauf_v%C3%A9hicules_autoris%C3%A9s.JPG ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
You could also put the address information on the building and place the two POIs inside it. At least Nominatim supports this. There is no reason why another program cannot find the surrounding building. Of course this is not as easy as taking it from the node. Since this is a rather recent feature, I've always doubled the address information. regards m On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel best regards, Martin 2014-12-05 6:19 GMT+01:00 Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 06:19, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. Hi Hans In OSM we have this principle of one feature - one element http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:49 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel +1, the same around here. There is also an attribute shop=yes that some people add to the amenity=fuel object to say that it's a gas station with a shop. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:50 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In OSM we have this principle of one feature - one element http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/One_feature,_one_OSM_element this is not a clear rule, e.g. I wouldn't consider it wrong to have an area tagged as amenity=bank, atm=yes and have another object amenity=atm for the (same) atm. The atm=yes is an attribute that says: this bank also has an atm (it's a property of the bank). And the amenity=atm says: this is the atm. In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. not clear. In my world the convenience store is part of the gas station. ;-) Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. an address can be seen as a feature on its own, but it can also be an attribute of another feature. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap
2014-12-05 0:42 GMT+01:00 Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com: water_potable = yes/no If not known you don't tag. Then it will some default action possibly based on location. Some may want tags 'boil', 'filter','filter+boil' ... values like boil or filter could go under a key like suggested_water_treatment. I think it bears some risk for the mapper to add information like this to a water source where the water is officially classified as non-potable. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 10:49 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel best regards, Martin +1, this is the way I would tag it. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New tag value in access? authorised [fork from: access in the wiki]
2014-12-05 9:57 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com: Did you look at some of the examples in the links [7,8,9,10]? I feel private is not suitable there. How are tagged today the real-world authorised vehicles exemptions or signs with authorised vehicles only? they are tagged as access-mode=private cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Zones and defaults [fork from: access in the wiki]
2014-12-04 17:57 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: there is actually a proposal for this kind of zone, to be mapped as a polygon, useful e.g. for rendering (with name, ref, etc.), but probably not very transparent to inherit access-tags to ways from this. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/boundary%3Dlimited_traffic_zone This is not what I am proposing. My tags are for streets highway=*; not for a polygon. With direct tags and no need for inheritance from polygon to ways. Neither am I proposing inheritance (too complex, not very transparent). I meant to say that this tag is intended to map the actual zone (its name, its ref, its area and boundary, its operator, etc.). No need to have this on the individual highways, it is sufficient to have the actual (typically time-dependent) restrictions on the highways. Go beyond my summary and see explanations in my post instead: So possible tag for a ZTL in Italy could be: highway=IT:limited_traffic_zone (scheme similar to highway=living_street) OR highway=residential/pedestrian + zone:traffic=IT:limited_traffic_zone (scheme similar to zone:maxspeed=FR:30 or zone:traffic=DE:urban) As you mentioned these schemes zone:*=[country]:* follow practical tagging on each street not zones. no, these zones are nothing country-specific, they are city-specific. This is really another thing than a 30-zone in Germany for instance. It is not the primary tag, just an additional tag + zone:*=* and merely indicates that a particular way belongs to a real-world zone. There is no use (IMHO) in adding these duplicates to individual ways, you can see from the boundary that there is this specific limited traffic zone. Several road classes (from motorway to residential and special road types like pedestrian, living_street...) could benefit from sensible defaults. AFAIK some road classes do already imply defaults. defaults are something for that data consumers need when actual data is missing. ;-) Furthermore these defaults can be country-specific. Access restrictions could similarly be included as defaults in a road class. there are wikipages that try to define these defaults, and there are common assumptions for specific road classes (e.g. motorway, pedestrian), also country specific ones. IMHO this should not be used to remove tags that are defined as default. In a system like OSM you always have the problem that the absence of a tag can mean 2 things: incomplete data/mapping or default data. Until you add the tag you won't know. Please search the archive, this was discussed several times in depth. / RANT / Geez... Martin, it would be better if you reply to the full-extent discussions and not to the short statements from a summary. I'm trying to keep this readable and to discuss the essence or details that I'm interested in. If the individual contribution gets too long on a ML, people will not read it at all... Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 10:57, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-05 10:50 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. an address can be seen as a feature on its own, but it can also be an attribute of another feature. If you do it that way, that is place the address tags on an other feature you will end up with a database that has the same feature multiple times, which is clearly not a good thing. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 10:49, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 11:40, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. This depends on the country. In Luxembourg, there is a one-building-one-address rule. Stacked occupants, or occupants sharing a building, always have the same house number (the post man uses the addressee name to resolve the postbox he needs to put it in). I know this is different in other countries, where every postbox needs to have its own address and the post man essentially ignores the addressee name. -- Matthijs ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
2014-12-05 12:40 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. this is country dependent, in Germany addresses are typically refering to a site/plot (not just to a building but to all buildings on that site and to the site itself), and only if necessary additional numbers will be issued, e.g for buildings, entrances, staircases, etc.. In Italy addresses are refering to entrances. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New tag value in access? authorised [fork from: access in the wiki]
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-05 9:57 GMT+01:00 althio forum althio.fo...@gmail.com: Did you look at some of the examples in the links [7,8,9,10]? I feel private is not suitable there. How are tagged today the real-world authorised vehicles exemptions or signs with authorised vehicles only? they are tagged as access-mode=private Thank you for the clarification. Though my question was half-rhetorical. My main point is then in the sentence right after: How are tagged today the real-world authorised vehicles exemptions or signs with authorised vehicles only? they are tagged as access-mode=private I don't think a bus lane with special exemptions for authorised vehicles should be tagged motor_vehicle=private. Nor that private can be used on any street or public road with no private 'owner'. To sum up: 'private' is used, I find it inadequate. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Zones and defaults [fork from: access in the wiki]
defaults are something for that data consumers need when actual data is missing. ;-) YMMV... My current point of view is different: + defaults are something to make tagging easier and more efficient. + They allow redundant data to be missing and thus make the database cleaner and smaller. + If the default value must be changed (e.g. the regulations are changing) the bulk of the modifications is smaller. Also please imagine a new local mapper willing to add data. If it is easy to improve a bit the map with one straightforward tag (e.g. highway=living_street) then documentation, translations, answers and mapping are easier for everyone. If it needs a full chain of tags: highway=residential + motorcar=private + emergency=yes + psv=yes + disabled=yes + ... and full understanding of the access key, access wikipage, in English only; acronyms, caveats like access=yes and access=no... That is another story altogether. One single error in the tagging can screw it all. Maps are done also by local people for local people. Not only by very experienced OSMers, skilled with computers and fluent in English for fellow taggers. IMHO this should not be used to remove tags that are defined as default. Not proposed, not mentioned, not in my mind. In a system like OSM you always have the problem that the absence of a tag can mean 2 things: incomplete data/mapping or default data. Until you add the tag you won't know. That is right. And this is something I can live with. If I wanted to address this issue as simply as possible: e.g. highway=* + [maxspeed not set] is mapped correctly and the default maxspeed is adequate. But I want to indicate that maxspeed is known for real and it is not incomplete data: - highway=* + maxspeed=default Of course some people are not favorable to defaults or they have different limits on what is acceptable. So any discussion on the subject is a hard one. If there is no consensus on using defaults: yes or no, it becomes difficult to discuss how to choose default values, how to tag values identical to default, and so on... Please search the archive, this was discussed several times in depth. Nice proposition. Searching=default is always a good start but... would anyone care to point other keywords that could lead to interesting discussions? Also is there some meaningful wikipage and proposals [draft/rejected/accepted...] specifically on the subject of defaults? other than: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Maxspeed#Default_speed_limits http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions#Default http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/access_restrictions_1.5#Default_access_restriction_values http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Defaults ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
This topic interests me greatly. In my world a gas station and a convenience store are two distinct features, so they should indeed exist as two elements also in the osm database. Also an address should be considered a feature in its own right so it should also be a distinct element. Regards Markus +1 Same here. In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...). - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel +1, the same around here. There is also an attribute shop=yes that some people add to the amenity=fuel object to say that it's a gas station with a shop. Cheers, Martin -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) --jack ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That is how I try to tag them. Especially since the fuel brand often changes but the convenience store often stays the same. I usually leave the address node as separate node. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) That is a great suggestion. I'll have to try that. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:40 AM, Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com wrote: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. You're not going to comma separate the different address values I hope. It's also unsustainable to duplicate address elements on multiple POI's. Among other problems there's a maintenance issue, where it's unlikely that corrections will be applied to all the elements. The two tagging approaches seem to be: - It's primarily a gas station, and it has attributes like store, restroom, water bottle filling station, wiper water. - It's primarily a designated area with a name and address. Inside that area are individual nodes for: - fuel sale/pumps/cash register - wiper water - air hose - restroom - drinking water, permissive, wheelchair accessible - water bottle filling station - hot coffee - complimentary - dark roast - Electric charging station - operator=charge point - fee=yes - Vending machine - condoms - lollipops - Sign - name=Esso - height=20m - lighted=yes A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes But once a station gets past a certain level of complexity, the expectation is the mapper will break out all the elements. - Whatever solution is chosen, it should be easy to create a summary database. For example an offline map may want to simplify the full tagging down to two icons: gas or gas shop ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 18:55 schrieb Shawn K. Quinn: On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:46 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: A hybrid approach is possible also where simple is acceptable: amenity=fuel, shop=yes Shouldn't this be shop=convenience (in most cases)? +1 shop=yes was removed from JOSM defaultpresets in order to set a proper shop value. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Am 05.12.2014 um 18:49 schrieb Bryce Nesbitt: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com mailto:burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That's worth highlighting. In the USA the shop hours may be limited, where the pumps are left on 24/7 for credit card users. Sounds more like an extra value for payment:*:* in opening_hours format like payment:cash=08:00-22:00 for amenity=fuel? cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, 2014-12-05 at 09:49 -0800, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That's worth highlighting. In the USA the shop hours may be limited, where the pumps are left on 24/7 for credit card users. I know of at least one Kroger store locally where the pumps are card only. The grocery store is 24/7 but did close for Thanksgiving; I didn't check if the pumps were left on or locked down for the holiday. But the setup of having 24/7 pay at the pump for credit/debit/gift card purchases is not uncommon. In fact, Exxon used to run a few entirely automated gas stations (including cash at the pump!) under the Exxon Express label (but this didn't last). -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Zones and defaults [fork from: access in the wiki]
Am 05.12.2014 um 16:13 schrieb althio forum: defaults are something for that data consumers need when actual data is missing. ;-) YMMV... My current point of view is different: + defaults are something to make tagging easier and more efficient. + They allow redundant data to be missing and thus make the database cleaner and smaller. + If the default value must be changed (e.g. the regulations are changing) the bulk of the modifications is smaller. Also please imagine a new local mapper willing to add data. If it is easy to improve a bit the map with one straightforward tag (e.g. highway=living_street) then documentation, translations, answers and mapping are easier for everyone. If it needs a full chain of tags: highway=residential + motorcar=private + emergency=yes + psv=yes + disabled=yes + ... and full understanding of the access key, access wikipage, in English only; acronyms, caveats like access=yes and access=no... That is another story altogether. One single error in the tagging can screw it all. Maps are done also by local people for local people. Not only by very experienced OSMers, skilled with computers and fluent in English for fellow taggers. Well, you definitely hit the best example. highway=living_street is one of the major mistakes in OSM-history and should be living_street=yes with the proper highway=*, similar to motorroad and bicycle_road. defaults value might help but e.g. the last change in German law changed the default value for motor_vehicle for bicycle_roads form yes to destination but the change is fluently and one by one which means the only possibility to get the right access tags is once again by tagging them. Similar is true for zone:*=*. These tags are additional tags for source:*=* and hints for other mappers but it is no substitute for the real key and its value. cu fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 14:15, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2014-12-05 12:40 GMT+01:00 Markus Lindholm markus.lindh...@gmail.com: In general it is not sustainable to place address tags on area/building elements as there can be many addresses within such an element. this is country dependent, But OSM is a global database, so at least in the part of the world that has the familiar street name plus house number scheme I don't see any reason for divergence. Even in countries with a strict rule of one building - one address, I wonder what they do with a single building that occupies a whole city block, facing four streets. Would it still only be allowed one address? Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On 5 December 2014 at 17:51, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) Please have a look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Provides_feature I think it addresses exactly your problem. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
Problem with this idea is usually the fuel is not sold in the convenience store, and at newer convenience store models that actually care about their customers beyond being a walking wallet (ie, OnCue, QuikTrip) will have a separate driveway and parking area behind the store so you don't have to get all caught up in the busy fuel line just to run in and get a cup of coffee. Therefore, separately mapping the store and the fuel line is definitely appropriate as any halfway decent routing engine seems to be pretty good about picking the driveway that doesn't get you caught in the ratscrew if you tell it you want the convenience store, not the fuel line. On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 11:19 PM, Hans De Kryger hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote: Hopefully this gets enough attention on the tagging list. Thought about posting this to talk U.S but changed my mind. Anyways to my problem. One of my passions to map in osm is gas stations. I've done hundreds since I've joined and now have fully come to realize a persistent problem that occurs frequently. The duplicate address tagging of a gas station and convenience store run by the same company. For example, say i just added a circle k gas station down the street from me to osm. But the gas station also has a convenience store. Well i have to copy over all the address info from one poi to the other since leaving the address Field blank makes no sense if someone would like to get there using a navigation app. I have thought about it a lot. And i go back and forth thinking both places should be tagged. Still a part of me thinks it makes no sense to have a address for a gas station tagged twice. One reason we cant completely combine the gas station and convenience store tag is some gas stations have the convenience store run by separate companies. As is the case with a circle k down the street from me. The convenience store is a circle k but the gas station is a shell. It would be nice to have a separate tag that combined the gas and convenience store shop together. I just want to make clear i don't want to get rid of the existing tags i just want to add one. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: In my opinion the gas station is not the building but the whole area. Also the address belongs to the whole area and that's the way I tag gas stations: - Draw an area to cover the complete gas station and put amenity=fuel together with additional tags like the address on it. In my region it is usually quite clear on an aerial image where the station starts and where it ends (some kind of fence, barrier, whatever, ...).\\\ That'd be a better polygon for landuse=retail. Odds are you're not going to be getting gas out of the air compressor or a parking space in the far corner. Or the car wash, if there is one. - Draw the roads (highway=service) and buildings (building=yes resp. building=roof + layer=1) - Additional attributes like amenity=car_wash, amenity=parking, shop=convenience go to there actual position, i.e. if there is a convenience store in one of the buildings I add the tag there. - No need to provide the address more than once: the address belongs to everything within the area tagged with amenity=fuel Except now people can't use it to have a routing engine find the fuel line for 'em. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
How about site relations? Seems like a good use of a site relation. On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 11:03 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 8:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: -1. I don't really agree. The parking/driving area is no more a part of the gas station than any other parking lot is part of the store/building they service. I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. That is how I try to tag them. Especially since the fuel brand often changes but the convenience store often stays the same. I usually leave the address node as separate node. Lately I've been playing with using a multipolygon as a way to handle the too-many-address-entries problem. Join the building=roof and building=retail into a multipolygon, then apply the address data to that. (I do have to do this before applying the other tags to the areas-that-make-up-the-building bits, but that's easy.) That is a great suggestion. I'll have to try that. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Combining gas stations convenience stores
On Fri, Dec 5, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Jack Burke burke...@gmail.com wrote: I usually do building=roof + layer=1 + amenity=fuel + brand=Foo for the pumps, and building=retail + shop=convenience for the store part. I also usually put opening_hours on each of them if/as I find out what those are. This is how I handle it as well. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
