Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:

>
>  That said the google approach would be to infer everything from text,
>> social and web linking analysis:
>> name=Fred's Bakery
>> website=http://freds.example.org/ [1]
>>
>
> As we already have these informations, we could just ignore the rest and
> make a big software effort to recognize the meaning. But that would be hard
> problem, involving parsing the websites.


I help run (through keepright) a job that loads those websites.  It's goal
is to determine if the website still matches the node.
The problem is not a Google scale problem: it's far smaller.
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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 5:11 PM, SomeoneElse  wrote:

> However, even when hives are moved around for pollination don't they still
> have a nominal "home"?
>
>
No.  Maybe a winter home, or a regular rotation.
It's more like a food truck: there may be a regular rotation.


In terms of strategy for *OpenStreetMap*: given the strength of
http://apiarymap.com/ ,
perhaps it's better to see a partner rather than a parallel effort.  Reach
out to those folks
and see if they'd be willing to switch base maps, and harmonize data for
display.
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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[SomeoneElse]

On 12/05/2015 18:13, Anders Anker-Rasch wrote:


Hi,

first post on the tagging list so I'll try to be short.

Apiary tagging is still "in limbo" - and has been so for some years 
now as I can see from the talk. 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/apiary


How can I get this subject moving again for a vote, or get more people 
involved as to decide the best practice?





Personally, I wouldn't worry especially about voting.  Taginfo suggests 
the following uses of apiary and beehive etc.:


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=apiary#values

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=beehive#values

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/?key=craft&value=beekeeper

Based on that, if you're tagging an actual physical beehive I'd suggest 
"man_made=beehive"; if you're tagging an area where there are lots of 
beehives I'd suggest "landuse=apiary".


(to try and answer the other question) FWIW at least where I am in the 
UK we don't see the "continental" movement of bees that happens in the 
US as beekeepers move their hives around following various crops, 
although a quick web search suggests that there is a pollination 
services industry here.  I can't comment on other countries, though 
wikipedia suggests that "migratory beekeeping" is mainly a US thing.  
However, even when hives are moved around for pollination don't they 
still have a nominal "home"?


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 13.05.2015 0:56, Bryce Nesbitt napisał(a):

Something that gets proposed from time to time is a tree hierarchy:
shop=food:bakery:muffins+sweets:cookie


So what are the reasons it does not catch up?

I think the downside of this example is that it would be tedious and too 
detailed for people to enter and thus more error prone - we should rely 
more on editors with validation rules then. In a "bricked", lightweight 
version it would be rather:


shop + muffins + cookies

because if we have the general category tree curated on the wiki, we 
don't have to explicitly repeat it inside each item's tagging.



That said the google approach would be to infer everything from text,
social and web linking analysis:
name=Fred's Bakery
website=http://freds.example.org/ [1]


As we already have these informations, we could just ignore the rest and 
make a big software effort to recognize the meaning. But that would be 
hard problem, involving parsing the websites. So it is for Google, but 
their strength is automatic big data analysis, and ours is multiple 
users with their own analysis powers. =}


I would also say Google has much lower expectations - they want the map 
to be just a part of their services ecosystem, especially for 
advertising locations, while we want the map to have all the items one 
can think of.


--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

[Ross]

And read the wiki page on maxspeed:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:maxspeed

" the maximum legalspeed limit 
 "


Cheers
Ross


On 12/05/15 22:36, pmailkeey . wrote:



On 12 May 2015 at 12:29, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote:



2015-05-11 13:08 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . mailto:pmailk...@googlemail.com>>:

Maxspeed does not imply 'limit' by name.



it does, "maximum" is about a limit...


Please reread my previous message - and appreciate that maxima can be 
exceeded.



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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[David Bannon]

On Tue, 2015-05-12 at 13:13 -0400, Anders Anker-Rasch wrote:
> first post on the tagging list so I'll try to be short.
Welcome Anders, very welcome!
> 
> Apiary tagging is still "in limbo" - and has been so for some years
> now as I can see from the talk.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/apiary

In my part of the world bee keepers move their bee hives around
seasonally. Not something I know much about but do understand most (?)
larger scale bee-keeping is mobile.  

I assume from your interest, thats not the case world wide ?

David


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Re: [Tagging] General tagging system problems (was: shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Something that gets proposed from time to time is a tree hierarchy:
shop=food:bakery:muffins+sweets:cookie


That said the google approach would be to infer everything from text,
social and web linking analysis:
name=Fred's Bakery
website=http://freds.example.org/
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[Tagging] General tagging system problems (was: shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets)

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 12.05.2015 21:50, Michał Brzozowski napisał(a):


1) Don't reinvent the wheel. See how "competitors" have tackled a
problem (Gonna elaborate very widely on that when I'll have enough
examples and time to write).


I don't know the competition and I'm curious how do they deal with it. 
After all it's not that easy, because we try to cover the whole planet 
and it's a very diverse place.


Examples would be great!


2) Tag to users' expectations, not to your definitions. But the
consequence would be a substantial reduction in the mailing list
traffic :-P


I guess what we're trying to do on this list is defining things 
according to multiple layman points of view.


However you're right: usually from some point discussion just gets 
deeper and deeper into horrible details because it's easier to invent 
another "cases" than try to keep things clean, general and 
user-friendly.



3) Ontology should be simple and rather general. Being too particular
while incomplete is a plague of current shop and services tagging
system.


Not only incomplete, but also overlapping in many cases - which is even 
worse, because you can always fill the missing place, but it's much 
harder to redefine already used tagging schemes and narrow down 
definitions (BTW: that seems to be exactly the problem with 
confectionery etc.).


***

I had the same intuition lately and that's what I said on the Talk list 
about how should good tagging system look like:


1. It should be more uniform (like "amenity=school" -> "landuse=school"
for the school areas).

2. It should be more cascading/hierarchical (like in
"construction=highway + highway=service + service=parking_aisle").

3. It should be more granular (no more
"amenity=green_poodle_with_6_legs", just because it's a very common
case! Rather "amenity=poodle + colour=green + legs=6").

4. It should allow mixing different forms and functions (like in
"building=church + amenity=place_of_worship", because they can be
disconnected, like "building=church + tourism=museum").

5. It should treat parallel types of objects as first class citizens
(kind of "amenity=police + amenity=school" for police academy should be
possible, since this amenity is equally a teaching place _and_ a police
place - the same for multiple names: we can make it "name=A;B" if really
needed, but the semicolon is our last resort and there's no consensus if
we should use numbering schemes like "name1=A + name2=B" or "name:1=A +
name:2=B" instead).

[ https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-March/072349.html 
]


In my opinion current tagging system fails especially at 3. - it is not 
granular enough and I see no way of repairing it directly. So I invented 
the idea of smaller, more universal "bricks" like:


- area
- food
- drink
- sweet
- sleep
- children
- education
- service
- religion
- building
- shop
- railway
- bus
- vehicle
- home
- art

...and so on. Remember, this is just an illustration of the problem, not 
the final list! This new "vocabulary" should be created by carefully 
analyzing, generalizing and extracting from current system to 
re-implement the knowledge we use now. Then we should be able to 
construct things like:


children + education + building (= school building)
vehicle + education (= driving school)
area + tree (= forest/wood)
building + sleep (= hotel/hostel/...)

and many more much easier, avoiding too much overlapping and letting 
things be general when needed or when the mapper can not be sure. If we 
made also the ontology tree for this vocabulary (like "children is kind 
of person" and "bus is a vehicle"), we could have sane, granular and 
extendable system. Wiki would no longer be the fat, necessary phone book 
like it's now, because it would be easier to remember the system and to 
extend them according to the rules.


To make the transition as smooth as possible, we could establish that 
some new combinations are "reserved" for old objects (like "children + 
education" is exactly "amenity=school").


Of course it's all just general sketch to be refined and examined. I 
wrote more about this idea in this post:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2015-March/072375.html

I know it looks like a big task, but I see no shorter way to achieve 
better coherency and usability of our tagging system in the long run.


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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 20:50, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:

>
> This was the same issue that I was encountering with fast food vs
> restaurant distinction. A fast food for a typical person is either
> McDonald's/KFC or one of many kebab venues. On the other hand, I was
> told that amenity=fast_food is when you pay before consumption. This
> is quite wrong to me (are you going to include an asterisk quoting
> that definition when someone searches from an app?), as there is
> smooth distinction and I'd rather "promote" intermediate cases such as
> casual dining style restaurants.
>
>
Restaurant: sit down at tables in/near the premises and food is cooked to
order
Fast food: just a take-away service - and food is generally already cooked
and kept warm ready to serve/eat.

McDonalds are restaurants ! even they say this !

Fast food restaurants, if you ask me ;)

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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 19:49, Murry McEntire  wrote:

> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser :
>>
>>> In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged
>>> as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to
>>> bake them, right? :)
>>
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also
>> in line with the osm wiki:
>>
>> "A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread
>> on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh
>> sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes."
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery
>>
>>
>>
>> Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is
>> very Britain / central European (German) centric. "Baguettes" or "decorated
>> cakes" are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around
>> the world in bakeries.
>>
>> The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread.
>> Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether
>> they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is
>> secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
> And I would say the OSM wiki definition is wrong (and I tried to change
> it) and your experience is regional. I would tag a place selling only
> "daily" bread a "bread store" or "bread bakery" on first thought (just like
> the shops here refer to themselves in name and ads). In my region, a bakery
> foremost sells cakes, pastries, and/or specialty (dessert) breads, more
> often than not having no "daily" bread at all. If they mainly sell bread,
> "bread" is in the shop name to avoid confusion with what the general
> population thinks a bakery is.
> The country/region disagreements are why I threw up my hands on the
> proposal I created, knowing there was no agreement to be reached beyond the
> status quo definition. Despite citing current U.S. and British government,
> trade, business directory, and dictionary definitions baking a change,
> there were many that stuck with definitions that were more used in the
> first half of the twentieth century than now in England and the U.S..
> During the debates it also became apparent a number of (but not all) web
> language translators also make the same mistake, using past rather than
> contemporary usages of some words.
> This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to
> non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S.
> assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I
> knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and
> sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or
> Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I
> largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a "scholarly" effort that
> is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with.
>
> Murry
>
>

The terminology issue would be solved by having an American language
interface like there's French, German and English interfaces.

Bakery is goods cooked in an oven, AFAIK. Subtags should explain what in
each case is to be expected there.

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Re: [Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 18:13, Anders Anker-Rasch  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> first post on the tagging list so I'll try to be short.
>
> Apiary tagging is still "in limbo" - and has been so for some years now as
> I can see from the talk.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/apiary
>
> How can I get this subject moving again for a vote, or get more people
> involved as to decide the best practice?
>
> -
>
>
>
I think it's a case of just using what you need and waiting for the
official side of it to catch up with the map !


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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[Michał Brzozowski]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Murry McEntire
 wrote:

> This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to
> non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S.
> assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I
> knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and
> sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or Bing
> to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I largely
> stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a "scholarly" effort that is of
> little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with.
>
> Murry

This was the same issue that I was encountering with fast food vs
restaurant distinction. A fast food for a typical person is either
McDonald's/KFC or one of many kebab venues. On the other hand, I was
told that amenity=fast_food is when you pay before consumption. This
is quite wrong to me (are you going to include an asterisk quoting
that definition when someone searches from an app?), as there is
smooth distinction and I'd rather "promote" intermediate cases such as
casual dining style restaurants.

My bottom line is:

1) Don't reinvent the wheel. See how "competitors" have tackled a
problem (Gonna elaborate very widely on that when I'll have enough
examples and time to write).

2) Tag to users' expectations, not to your definitions. But the
consequence would be a substantial reduction in the mailing list
traffic :-P

3) Ontology should be simple and rather general. Being too particular
while incomplete is a plague of current shop and services tagging
system.

Michał

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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[Murry McEntire]

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 3:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser :
>
>> In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged
>> as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to
>> bake them, right? :)
>
>
>
> I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in
> line with the osm wiki:
>
> "A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread
> on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh
> sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes."
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery
>
>
>
> Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is
> very Britain / central European (German) centric. "Baguettes" or "decorated
> cakes" are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around
> the world in bakeries.
>
> The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread.
> Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether
> they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is
> secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
And I would say the OSM wiki definition is wrong (and I tried to change it)
and your experience is regional. I would tag a place selling only "daily"
bread a "bread store" or "bread bakery" on first thought (just like the
shops here refer to themselves in name and ads). In my region, a bakery
foremost sells cakes, pastries, and/or specialty (dessert) breads, more
often than not having no "daily" bread at all. If they mainly sell bread,
"bread" is in the shop name to avoid confusion with what the general
population thinks a bakery is.
The country/region disagreements are why I threw up my hands on the
proposal I created, knowing there was no agreement to be reached beyond the
status quo definition. Despite citing current U.S. and British government,
trade, business directory, and dictionary definitions baking a change,
there were many that stuck with definitions that were more used in the
first half of the twentieth century than now in England and the U.S..
During the debates it also became apparent a number of (but not all) web
language translators also make the same mistake, using past rather than
contemporary usages of some words.
This terminology problem is the main reason I stopped recommending OSM to
non-technical relatives and friends. I knew they would use current U.S.
assumptions on what the terminology of the map meant and would be misled. I
knew they would not use a map that, in their eyes, was inaccurate and
sometimes flat out wrong. They are much better off using Google maps or
Bing to find shops and services. This is also one of a few reasons why I
largely stopped contributing to OSM: why pursue a "scholarly" effort that
is of little use to the people I would most like to share my efforts with.

Murry
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[Tagging] man_made=apiary or ?

[Anders Anker-Rasch]

Hi, 

first post on the tagging list so I'll try to be short. 

Apiary
tagging is still "in limbo" - and has been so for some years now as I can
see from the talk.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/apiary 

How can
I get this subject moving again for a vote, or get more people involved as
to decide the best practice?  

-- 
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Anders Anker-Rasch

View Anders Anker-Rasch's profile
[1]
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/anders_ar

 

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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[Brad Neuhauser]

We're kind of circling back to the discussion from 2013. For example, see
this talk page about the failed bread bakery proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposal/bread_bakery

IIRC, the main thing that came out of that was it became clear that
different cultures have very different expectations of what goods they
would find at a "bakery".

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser :
>
>> In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged
>> as bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to
>> bake them, right? :)
>
>
>
> I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in
> line with the osm wiki:
>
> "A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread
> on the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh
> sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes."
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery
>
>
>
> Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is
> very Britain / central European (German) centric. "Baguettes" or "decorated
> cakes" are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around
> the world in bakeries.
>
> The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread.
> Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether
> they also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is
> secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[John F. Eldredge]

In American usage, gravel refers to both rounded and unrounded stones of 
similar size.  For example, concrete often makes use of crushed stone in the 
gravel size; it is angular rather than rounded. Pea gravel is often used as an 
ornamental surface layer for concrete, but not for use within a concrete slab, 
since it is more expensive.


On May 12, 2015 4:47:54 AM CDT, Martin Koppenhoefer  
wrote:
>2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :
>
>> *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in
>place
>> of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and
>rounded.
>
>
>
>reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too,
>the
>wiki seems wrong here:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface  wrong picture and wrong
>description, wrong size specification...
>
>FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>
>granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
>pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)
>
>cheers,
>Martin
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] access tags (was contact: tags)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-11 14:22 GMT+02:00 SomeoneElse :

> You could argue that prefixing all access tags with "access:" might "make
> it easier for mappers", but only if you simultaneously submit patches for
> iD, P2, JOSM, Vespucci, et al, _and_ get a general concensus that the
> existing accepted values should be mechanically edited.  Good luck with
> that.
>



I willl argue that prefixes like "contact:", "addr:" or maybe "access:"
actually make mapping less comfortable for mappers that use autocompletion
rather than presets. I believe it is justified in the case of address, as
an exception, thankfully that's only 5 digits, but I wouldn't like to make
tag prefixing more common. (who uses prevalently autocompletion will
probably agree: addresses make a perfect exception to use a preset).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 14:49 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . :

> Now, we can start arguing about the definition of 'small' :)) - so I'll
> start, in this context, with any stone smaller than a curling stone
>  !
>
> large ones  can be several
> feet in diameter and a couple of kT.
>



there are definitions for the sizes:
ISO 14688-1 which is basically DIN 4022.
in the US:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Wentworth-Grain-Size-Chart.pdf

the basic sequence clay, silt, sand, pebbles, cobbles, boulders is the
same, there's nothing to argue about.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[moltonel 3x Combo]

TL;DR: off-topic, rant, noise


On 12/05/2015, pmailkeey .  wrote:
> On 12 May 2015 at 03:26, John F. Eldredge  wrote:
>
>> Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a
>> meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no
>> vegetation.
>
> Bearing in mind this context - of general discussion rather than written
> text book - do you know 'desert' was not merely an accidental typo ? In a
> more formal setting, I'd have jumped on it too :)

Yes, just like the typos in "croissant" and "viénoiserie" from that
same email (writen late at night), which John didn't pick on because
they're not on the list of classic English mistakes that some people
like to pick on. And while we're on language show-off mode, a French
person (like me) would never misspell "dessert" for "desert" (except
for typos) because in French the pronounciation differs and matches
the spelling.

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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 03:26, John F. Eldredge  wrote:

> Minor nitpick: desserts are sweet foods, usually eaten at the end of a
> meal. Deserts are areas with little rainfall, and sparse or no vegetation.
>
>
>
Bearing in mind this context - of general discussion rather than written
text book - do you know 'desert' was not merely an accidental typo ? In a
more formal setting, I'd have jumped on it too :)

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 10:49, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-05-12 11:47 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>>
>>

Ahh osm just seems to be an argument ground ;)

OED: "A small, smooth, rounded stone, worn by the action of water, ice, or
sand."

Now, we can start arguing about the definition of 'small' :)) - so I'll
start, in this context, with any stone smaller than a curling stone
 !

large ones  can be several feet
in diameter and a couple of kT.

-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

[pmailkeey .]

On 12 May 2015 at 12:29, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> 2015-05-11 13:08 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . :
>
>> Maxspeed does not imply 'limit' by name.
>
>
>
> it does, "maximum" is about a limit...
>
>
Please reread my previous message - and appreciate that maxima can be
exceeded.


-- 
Mike.
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[Tagging] Gravel (was "Re: Tagging Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35", and before that "surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?")

[SomeoneElse]

On 12/05/2015 12:19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


2015-05-11 18:14 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt >:


I only now, after having lived for many years in the UK, I realise
that the definition of gravel is wider than the equivalent of the
German Splitt. I thought them equivalent.

Looking it up in the English Wikipedia I found contradictory
information.

In
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel_road
"gravel" is "crushed stone" and raoughly aequivalent to the German
Splitt

But in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel
"gravel" is more generic and can, for example,  also be pebbles of
different sizes.




from my researches it seemed that gravel was completely different to 
Splitt and wouldn't contain it. But I now have looked at yet another 
dictionary and it seems to be included (because "pounded" is likely a 
synonym for "crushed" here):

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gravel

So my conclusion is that gravel can be either naturally worn or 
crushed stone and is about the grain size. Please note that "Splitt" 
is only appropriate for crushed stone, otherwise you would have to use 
"Kies" (pebbles).


I'd agree that "it's all about the grain size".  The wikipedia page* 
that's already been linked mentions the Krumbein scale that I vaguely 
remember from college.


When tagging surfaces in OSM I personally try not to use too many 
different values - if there's something vaguely appropriate in the top 
entries here I'd use that:


http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org.uk/keys/surface#values

note that that's the .org.uk taginfo not the .org one - there have been 
relatively few imports and mechanical edits there so it's a better 
representation of "what the surveying mapper actually tagged", though a 
similar country taginfo for a country with few imports and mechanical 
edits should do just as well.


Cheers,

Andy

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_size



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of historic=monument

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-10 16:32 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett :

> > Every monument is a memorial, isn't it? Monuments are large memorials.
>



+1, the Albert memorial should be tagged as a monument in OSM.



>
> In British English yes; but the issue is that in other cultures (and
> languages) a "monument" is a "historic building". See:
>
>http://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/
>




It doesn't matter for us. We are tagging according to our conventions as
defined in the wiki...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging of historic=monument

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-10 3:06 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> If it is 10 metres high .. but 50 millimeters diameter ... is it still
> 'large'?



yes.
I agree it is relative, a motorway with 10 metres length would be rather
small ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Maxspeed

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-11 13:08 GMT+02:00 pmailkeey . :

> Maxspeed does not imply 'limit' by name.



it does, "maximum" is about a limit...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 68, Issue 35

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-11 18:14 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I only now, after having lived for many years in the UK, I realise that
> the definition of gravel is wider than the equivalent of the German Splitt.
> I thought them equivalent.
>
> Looking it up in the English Wikipedia I found contradictory information.
>
> In
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel_road
> "gravel" is "crushed stone" and raoughly aequivalent to the German Splitt
>
> But in
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel
> "gravel" is more generic and can, for example,  also be pebbles of
> different sizes.
>



from my researches it seemed that gravel was completely different to Splitt
and wouldn't contain it. But I now have looked at yet another dictionary
and it seems to be included (because "pounded" is likely a synonym for
"crushed" here):
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/gravel

So my conclusion is that gravel can be either naturally worn or crushed
stone and is about the grain size. Please note that "Splitt" is only
appropriate for crushed stone, otherwise you would have to use "Kies"
(pebbles).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 11:47 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):
>
> granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
> pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)
>


to complete this for our purposes:
below granular gravel there is sand, above pebble there are cobbles (64 -
254mm diameter).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=pebbles -> surface=pebblestone ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-10 14:19 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> *pebbles* is similar to gravel, only that loose pebbles are used in place
> of the gravel. The pebbles are bigger than the gravel pieces, and rounded.



reading several sources it appears to me that gravel is rounded too, the
wiki seems wrong here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:surface  wrong picture and wrong
description, wrong size specification...

FWIW, pebbles seem to be a subset of gravel (grain size):

granular gravel (2 to 4 mm)
pebble gravel (4 to 64 mm)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 1:43 GMT+02:00 moltonel 3x Combo :

> Blaspheme ! :p You shouldn't compare Haribo-type sweets which *are*
> mostly sugar with the deserts sold in a patisserie which can be
> relatively healthy
>


blasphemy! Y
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Re: [Tagging] shop=confectionery / pastry / candy / sweets

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-11 17:10 GMT+02:00 Brad Neuhauser :

> In my experience, most places that sell pastries would be better tagged as
> bakery. Even if they only sell pastries (ie no bread), they do have to bake
> them, right? :)



I wouldn't tag a place as bakery which doesn't sell bread. This is also in
line with the osm wiki:

"A *bakery* is a shop selling bread. Bakeries normally bake fresh bread on
the premises. Normally also sell pastries, cakes, etc. Often do fresh
sandwiches or baguettes. Often do decorated cakes."
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dbakery



Besides that I am not really happy with the definition there, as it is very
Britain / central European (German) centric. "Baguettes" or "decorated
cakes" are particular kind of baked goods that won't be found all around
the world in bakeries.

The main purpose of a bakery is to make and sell bread.
Whether they also sell pizza, or what kind of bread they sell, whether they
also sell sweets, coca cola, milk, flowers, sunglasses or olive oil is
secondary and should not (IMHO) appear in the main definition.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=brick -> surface=bricks?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-05-12 7:05 GMT+02:00 Andrew Errington :

> "Is there any good reason to avoid changing existing surface=brick to
> surface=bricks?"
>
> Yes.  In English, brick can be an adjective as well as a noun.  As an
> adjective, as it is here, it should have no "s".



why do we use an adjective for bricks when we use nouns for the other
surface values describing materials, like asphalt, gravel, ground, dirt,
grass, concrete, paving_stones...?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] surface=brick -> surface=bricks?

[Bryce Nesbitt]

Given that humans do the mapping, stamping out either the plural or
singular form will prove "not worth it".
Parsers that want to be complete will need to accept both.



*Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others.*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
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