Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 18.05.2015 um 02:04 schrieb pmailkeey . :
> 
> 
> This is better, imo: 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_van_(4022093988).jpg - no 
> hot food from this one so deffo not shop not fast food.  


typically those would move around, so not mappable and would make a bad example 
picture.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer

[Warin]

On 18/05/2015 6:04 AM, Daniel Koć wrote:

W dniu 16.05.2015 9:55, Janko Mihelić napisał(a):

It maybe controversial, but I think we don't want "everyone" editing
the map. I think we need some barriers to filter out people who are
"good" mappers. Good mappers have to understand this is not a service
for them, but a community. They have to understand this is not a drawn
map but a database. They have to appreciate the effort of others, and
so on.


I think "everyone" editing the map is the way to go. We just need to 
be prepared for vandalism if we get more popular - and Wikipedia 
clearly shows it's possible.


Yes .. everyone who wants to should have access to edit the map. The 
editing needs to be easy, fun and productive.. if it is not then most 
people will leave.
The more complex and technical OSM becomes the less information will be 
entered and the more probable incorrect entries will be made.
"Good mappers" contribute their time, knowledge .. usually at some cost 
to them, and want to see a result. OSM should accept that.
If OSM bars common people for 'helping' then there will be a narrow 
focus and a reduction in data entered.


 If you are not stubborn geek and you want to try to map many 
different kind of objects available locally, and are not interested in 
just one particular kind of them, you will loose.


No. It is OSM that looses the input from that person.

If OSM upsets people then some of them may well become vandals.

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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[Mike N]

On 5/17/2015 1:26 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent - 
shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that 
office=estate_agent is much more popular.


you seem to assume that these are about the same thing but to me it seems 
that's two different kind of places. Both tags make sense in different contexts


The history as I remember it was that shop= was the first version of 
estate_agent.   After office= was 'invented', that became a much more 
natural place to put it, and I think I migrated all of my entries over.



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer

[David Bannon]

On Sun, 2015-05-17 at 23:01 +0200, Daniel Koć wrote:
>  Once we start seeing through the eyes of people using the 
> map, who can help expand and refine our data, we can understand what are 
> their background, what are the problems for them and how they may behave 
> when experiencing obstacles. That may give us a hint what could we do to 
> let them be better mappers and achieve their personal goals at the same 
> time.

Yep, well said !

While it might well be fun to treat the database as a write only memory,
for the project to move forward, we need to concentrate on what end
users want, need and might use. 

And, sticking my neck out here, one thing most end users expect and
probably need is to find the terms used in the database can be looked up
(eg in the wiki) and clearly understood.

David


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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[pmailkeey .]

The one near me is deffo a shop - sells coffee and sandwiches!

-- 
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via *the area's premier website - *

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Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream

[pmailkeey .]

On 17 May 2015 at 22:15, Paweł Marynowski  wrote:

>
> To clarify, I suggest to change image on
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream to this one:
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_shop_-_Florida.jpg.
> Current image looks more like amenity=cafe (you can see sth to drink in the
> background and place to rest).
>
> --
>
> *Paweł Marynowski*
>
> Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska
>
> http://osm.org.pl/
>
>
>

This is better, imo:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_van_(4022093988).jpg - no
hot food from this one so deffo not shop not fast food!


-- 
Mike.
@millomweb  -
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via *the area's premier website - *

*currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
& pets*

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Re: [Tagging] Removal of "amenity" from OSM tagging

[pmailkeey .]

On 17 May 2015 at 14:12, David Earl  wrote:

> This is no way to treat consumers of map data. If you make major changes
> like this, anyone using the map has to scramble to change their rendering
> code. If there's no semblance of upward compatibility, people will lose
> interest in OSM because it is just too hard to maintain, and if there is
> any kind of automation involved, suddenly people's online apps stop working
> and it becomes an emergency.
>
> It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code,
> only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be
> abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID.
>
> Please drop this suggestion, it is not helpful. It's an unprofessional way
> to treat "customers".
>
> David
>
>

Unfortunately change is inevitable and it happens to Microsoft and Google
customers.


-- 
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@millomweb  -
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Re: [Tagging] amenity vs. shop *=ice_cream

[Paweł Marynowski]

2015-05-14 19:41 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>
> > Am 14.05.2015 um 18:44 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> >
> > Expecting any
> > difference in how these tags are used is naive.
>
>
> I agree, mostly, there is a difference in amenity=cafe cuisine=ice_cream,
> you can be sure there will be table service and they will usually also sell
> cups of ice cream (compositions with ice cream and fruit). These are
> typical e.g. for the areas of Germany with Italian immigration, while you
> hardly ever have them in Rome. Also a mobile ice cream man would more
> likely be tagged as amenity, not as a shop, while a shop would always be
> within a building or other structure, an amenity could or not.
>

To clarify, I suggest to change image on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dice_cream to this one:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ice-cream_shop_-_Florida.jpg.
Current image looks more like amenity=cafe (you can see sth to drink in the
background and place to rest).

-- 

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Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 16.05.2015 19:42, Richard Welty napisał(a):


 on the other hand, demanding that the rendering on
www.openstreetmap.org [1]
 be all things to all people is actually pretty unreasonable. the
current
 architecture which separates data from style is well considered and
in line
 with modern best practices; i haven't yet seen an argument that would
 persuade me otherwise.


For only experts, probably yes (like HTML development or the likes). But 
we're much closer to Wikipedia, where we don't demand anybody to be 
GIS-aware or to participate in making drafts.


We're not community of GIS experts, rather small-scale mappers, just 
like Wikipedians. But it's much easier to write new article or even put 
the photo there than try to make visible some features one consider 
essential.


We don't care for them now and I think we should start to do it. Maybe 
some user-cases study would be useful to conduct, like in usability 
research - these examples may get you the idea how one can do it to 
imagine the possible real life scenarios:


a) "Mary is a 32 australian farmer and wants to have the data about her 
big farm..."


b) "Jerzy is a 54 polish librarian fond on taking picture of the nature 
and he likes to have a map of birds nests..."


c) "Tove is 21 of Finnish descent living in Sweden and she regularly 
sails on the Baltic sea on her parents boat..."


...and so on. Once we start seeing through the eyes of people using the 
map, who can help expand and refine our data, we can understand what are 
their background, what are the problems for them and how they may behave 
when experiencing obstacles. That may give us a hint what could we do to 
let them be better mappers and achieve their personal goals at the same 
time.


The important thing is we should not just research using tools like iD, 
but rather we should look what they try to achieve with OSM as a 
project. Maybe conducting real study would be the best, I don't know, 
but until we try to understand them, and we will just keep saying "DON'T 
map for renderer", they will go away or just do it anyway...



 what we could use are more people doing projects like opencyclemap
and
 openfiremap and the like to bring out the data they care about in
formats
 that they like.


I disagree - they typically won't have enough technical skills and the 
OSM is already very scattered. For example adding routing to the main 
site was a huge step ahead, because it's the whole toolset is what the 
people need, not just a do-it-yourself kit. Google Maps are not the 
best, but the fact that it is part of their ecosystem (routing, ads, 
mail etc.) makes them very useful and popular.



 my presentation at SOTM US will include examples of using leaflet,
jquery
 and overpass to create mashups of OHM and OSM data, and i'll be
making
 my javascript available on the ohm github repository under a 3 clause
BSD
 license for anyone who wants to play.


That is nice, but most our mappers don't know even these words, let 
alone have enough competence to use it themselves.


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging FOR the renderer

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 16.05.2015 9:55, Janko Mihelić napisał(a):

It maybe controversial, but I think we don't want "everyone" editing
the map. I think we need some barriers to filter out people who are
"good" mappers. Good mappers have to understand this is not a service
for them, but a community. They have to understand this is not a drawn
map but a database. They have to appreciate the effort of others, and
so on.


I think "everyone" editing the map is the way to go. We just need to be 
prepared for vandalism if we get more popular - and Wikipedia clearly 
shows it's possible.


Some people will do the technical stuff (servers, tagging schemes 
crafting, rendering etc.), but most of them will only add buildings and 
POIs in the neighborhood or visiting some places - and the long-tail 
distribution says that is also the most of our database! So it is a 
precious content, even if very basic.



Of course, not everyone is a good mapper from the start, and starting
to map should be easy and fun. And I think it is. But if you want to
go to the next step and become a regular mapper, something not being
rendered shouldn't be an obstacle for you to continue mapping it.


The most surprising (in a bad sense) for new mappers is probably 
decentralized nature of the project. It's easy to start with iD, but 
anything above clicking presets is a huge obstacle!


You have to start being active on some forums and lists, know a lot of 
technical and social conventions, have a time to invest in developing a 
single feature on this list, on wiki, then with rendering - and if you 
even succeed in one of these places, they are so disconnected 
(autonomous), that you have to deal with them separately. If you are not 
stubborn geek and you want to try to map many different kind of objects 
available locally, and are not interested in just one particular kind of 
them, you will loose.


Micromapping is this kind of work and I suppose that is what average 
mapper want to do, not crafting and dealing with proper global 
definitions. And the main motivation is you can see it, not routing or 
big data analysis. On the highest zoom levels we could easily show much 
more currently missing features, so maybe we should remember that not 
every object needs to be rendered on middle and large scale - 
micromapping is all about micro scale and we don't even show highways 
properly there, as if we live only on the middle and big scale, where 
they are not considered to be areas!


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[Paweł Marynowski]

OK, but in this case exactly the same name tag isn't confusing? If we
consider two different tags valid, it should be "estate agent" and "estate
agency" or "estate broker". Or at least clear definition on wiki.

2015-05-17 19:26 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> > Am 17.05.2015 um 17:52 schrieb Paweł Marynowski :
> >
> > it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate
> agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information,
> that office=estate_agent is much more popular.
>
>
> you seem to assume that these are about the same thing but to me it seems
> that's two different kind of places. Both tags make sense in different
> contexts
>
>
> cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 17.05.2015 um 17:52 schrieb Paweł Marynowski :
> 
> it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent 
> - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that 
> office=estate_agent is much more popular.


you seem to assume that these are about the same thing but to me it seems 
that's two different kind of places. Both tags make sense in different contexts 


cheers
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Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

natural=archipelago 




> Am 17.05.2015 um 18:33 schrieb Janko Mihelić :
> 
> There was a proposal of the tag cluster recently, and a mailing list thread:
> 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/020959.html
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Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?

[Janko Mihelić]

There was a proposal of the tag cluster recently, and a mailing list thread:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/020959.html

ned, 17. svi 2015. 17:24 Richard Z.  je napisao:

> On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 04:15:02PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > Archipelago?
>
> the text says
> <<
> Groups of islands:
> add the natural=coastline into a multipolygon.
> >>
>
> why would I do that?
>
> Richard
>
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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[Tod Fitch]

> On May 17, 2015, at 9:01 AM, SomeoneElse  wrote:
> 
> On 17/05/2015 16:52, Paweł Marynowski wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate agent 
>> - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information, that 
>> office=estate_agent is much more popular.
>> 
> 
> Surely both are potentially valid?  Some estate agents' premises are very 
> definitely shops, yet other estate agents work primarily from offices (where 
> the emphasis isn't on facing the customer there).
> 

Perhaps is it because I speak American rather than British, but to me a shop is 
a place where the item(s) I buy can be carried out, if not in a shopping bag 
then on a truck (lorry). Assuming that “estate agent” translates to “real 
estate agent”, I would expect them to work out of an office rather than out of 
a shop.

Love the “bike shedding” that this list promotes. (Not really, but I was 
unaware of that term until I joined this list and it really does apply to 
nearly every tagging topic covered here.)

Cheers,
Tod



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Re: [Tagging] Estate agent

[SomeoneElse]

On 17/05/2015 16:52, Paweł Marynowski wrote:

Hi all,
it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate 
agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear 
information, that office=estate_agent is much more popular.




Surely both are potentially valid?  Some estate agents' premises are 
very definitely shops, yet other estate agents work primarily from 
offices (where the emphasis isn't on facing the customer there).


Cheers,

Andy


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[Tagging] Estate agent

[Paweł Marynowski]

Hi all,
it looks like since 2010 there is no consensus about how to tag estate
agent - shop vs. office. Quick look at taginfo gives clear information,
that office=estate_agent is much more popular.

My suggestion is to set status of shop=estate_agent as 'abandoned' and
office=estate_agent as 'de facto'. Any objections?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Destate_agent
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Destate_agent

Cheers

-- 

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Stowarzyszenie OpenStreetMap Polska

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Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?

[Richard Z.]

On Sun, May 17, 2015 at 04:15:02PM +0100, Philip Barnes wrote:
> Archipelago?

the text says
<<
Groups of islands:
add the natural=coastline into a multipolygon.
>>

why would I do that?

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Group of islands?

[Philip Barnes]

Archipelago?

Phil (trigpoint)

On Sun, 2015-05-17 at 16:23 +0200, Richard Z. wrote:
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[Tagging] Group of islands?

[Richard Z.]

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Re: [Tagging] Removal of "amenity" from OSM tagging

[Tod Fitch]

Just exactly how can a data consumer be “abstracted from our tags”? Where in a 
typical rendering process could this abstraction be placed where it would be 
automatic and transparent to the people maintaining the data consumers?

For example, I generate PDF/paper trail maps for an organization using OSM. My 
scripts download the extract from geofabrik that includes our area of interest 
and makes the maps from that. Unless geofabrik translates (abstracts) the tags, 
an unlikely and undesirable thing for them to do, then I will need to make 
changes in my scripts to handle any changes in tagging that my organization 
cares about. Maybe it would be in the stage where we load a database with 
object information, maybe it would be in the rendering stage or maybe in both 
areas. But I will have to make changes to get my map generation working again. 
I strongly suspect that many other data consumer maintainers would have the 
same issue.

—Tod

> On May 17, 2015, at 6:28 AM, Janko Mihelić  wrote:
> 
> I agree with this, but I think consumers should be abstrated from our tags 
> too. It shouldn't be impossible to change the meaning of a tag. But untill 
> such abstraction is made, no major changes should be made.
> 
> Janko
> 
> ned, 17. svi 2015. 15:14 David Earl  > je napisao:
> 
> It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code, 
> only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be 
> abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID.
> 



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Re: [Tagging] Removal of "amenity" from OSM tagging

[Janko Mihelić]

I agree with this, but I think consumers should be abstrated from our tags
too. It shouldn't be impossible to change the meaning of a tag. But untill
such abstraction is made, no major changes should be made.

Janko

ned, 17. svi 2015. 15:14 David Earl  je napisao:

It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code,
only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be
abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID.
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Re: [Tagging] Removal of "amenity" from OSM tagging

[David Earl]

This is no way to treat consumers of map data. If you make major changes
like this, anyone using the map has to scramble to change their rendering
code. If there's no semblance of upward compatibility, people will lose
interest in OSM because it is just too hard to maintain, and if there is
any kind of automation involved, suddenly people's online apps stop working
and it becomes an emergency.

It shouldn't matter what the tags are called, this is like assembly code,
only the geeks should need to ever see them. This really ought to be
abstracted in the editors, as indeed it is in ID.

Please drop this suggestion, it is not helpful. It's an unprofessional way
to treat "customers".

David

On Sun, 17 May 2015 at 00:18 AYTOUN RALPH  wrote:

> I believe that the discussion regarding amenity v landuse  should consider
> that where amenity designates the actual use of the area as in
> amenity=school, landuse designates the general use of the land... in the
> case of the school it should be landuse=education, the same as you get
> landuse=residential, landuse=farmland, landuse=commercial.
>
> In normal cartography there would be different maps designed to depict a
> specific theme, we called them Thematic Maps. A map depicting landuse would
> concentrate on the general use of that land pocket, at larger scales the
> landuse would be more specific as to the categories of landuse used.
>
> With OpenStreetMap everything is bunged together on a single map and that
> really confuses a lot of people into believing that you can separate out
> the tagging into something that fits. You cannot without restricting the
> use of the map. Some people using the map will be interested in the
> landuse, others may be more interested in the amenities. They are two
> separate and independent themes. We do not at this stage have the zoom
> levels organised to show certain thematics at each level nor do we have
> them separated into separate layers that can be switched on or off
> depending on what you want on the map. To get rid of one discriminates
> against those who have a requirement for that type of information. OSM is
> only now starting to realise that not all the specialist detail can be
> depicted on one map and we are starting to see specialist areas creating
> their own detailed "layer" of OSM such as the Cycle Map, Transport Map and
> separate maps such as OpenSeaMap. Once this idea has spread to other
> specifics then the tagging can be designed specifically for the
> requirements of those layers and the argument for landuse v amenity will be
> redundant
>
> So what the OSM community needs is to reconcile their own specific ideas
> with the requirements of others and reach a way of depicting their own
> preferences without compromising the preferences of others. Not by getting
> rid of a whole level of tags just because you do not understand them in
> context with what your interests are.
>
> Here is hoping we can all reach an amicable agreement and concentrate on
> the mapping.
>
> Regards to all
>
> Ralph
>
> On 16 May 2015 at 14:29, pmailkeey .  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 16 May 2015 at 04:27, johnw  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On May 15, 2015, at 8:02 PM, pmailkeey . 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> area IS landuse - it has to be (landuse=ocean ) so we get
>>> landuse=building even.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Uhhh.  *What?*  This is a clear about-face on the landuse tag then.
>>> Everywhere is clearly not a landuse. Most of the earth is not altered nor
>>> designated nor segregated for a specific use.
>>>
>>> I can define an “area” of the world. But if there are no purposeful
>>> alterations for a task, designations of purpose, nor manmade buildings and
>>> amenities contained within….  then it is not a landuse. There is no
>>> landuse=glacier for a reason.
>>> Most of the ocean is “unused” by people. - they have not changed it to
>>> have a specific purpose, nor altered the water to do a specific job - and
>>> it’s pretty hard to have a landuse on an ocean (maybe oceanuse=fish_farm?)
>>>  That would be a great "oceanuse" tag- there are plenty of floating,
>>> manmade, use-specific, designated-to-be fish farms around the world.
>>>
>>> They take up what… .01% of the ocean? the rest of the ocean has no
>>> man-altered, segregated, designated use (besides political ones) - but
>>> those are not “on the ground” in reality  (like a fish farm or a oyster
>>> farm).
>>>
>>> I have no idea where you get the notion that area=landuse.   land…
>>> *used* for a task. being a woods or a mountain or a lake is not the “job”
>>> or “designated purpose” of the area. It just is. hence the natural= tag.
>>>
>>> However, the land around a school building, usually fenced in, *containing
>>> the facility and amenities that belong to the facility and designated as
>>> such* (pitch, walkways, parking, etc) is clearly part of the school -
>>> but not a school building. The grounds and the building together make that
>>> “school."
>>>
>>> That *land*…. designated to be *u

[Tagging] Rendering surface values

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Default map style has significant power in shaping how map is tagged.
Therefore I want to keep good tagging, documentation on Wiki and my
proposed rendering of surface tags in Default Map Style synchronized.

On
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/110#issuecomment-102763588
I posted proposal how surface values would be interpreted.

To all people using stone, rocky, rock, limerock, granite, cement,
bricks, brick, hard, interlock, pebbles and laterite values for surface
tag - please consider problems mentioned in my recent tagging mailing
list postings.

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