Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails
Just draw a closed way. This also represents the reality since there are two rails. 2015-07-11 11:04 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com: The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dguard_rail says: If there is a clear inner/outer demarcation to the guard rail, construct the line so that the right side is inner and left side is outer. Often you find perfectly symmetric guardrails (example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/9-9-x8ynIiIdpNQHeA5CWg) I would like to tag this fact. Any examples or suggestions? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] How to recognize memorial from monument?
Simple question, hard problem: how to recognize (1) memorial from (2) monument? Definitions on Wiki are not clear and I think they need some love to make them easier to use in practice: 1) A feature for tagging smaller memorials, usually remembering special persons, peoples lost their lives in the wars. Memorials can be often found at public greens or cemeteries. 2) A memorial object, especially large (one can go inside, walk on or through it) and made of stone, built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or to commemorate an event. Monuments are often built in homage to past or present political / military leaders or religious figures / deities. So what is a deciding factor here: a) size (all examples of monuments are 15+ m), b) wartime/all other (however military leaders are sometimes also causalities of war), c) unknown and real people / widely known and legendary d) being the landmark (statue in park is typically much less important and visible than the same statue in the middle of a square) or maybe it's just purely subjective choice? It is important for me, because in Warsaw we have a lot of such places and I like to have some uniformity in tagging across the whole city. BTW: memorial can be war_memorial, but it can also be in the form of statue, stone or any other type at the the same type, so it seems the form and function are unfortunately mixed here. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to recognize memorial from monument?
The size: If you can walk in it's a monument. There might be cases where there is clearly enough space for many people but no provisions have been made. Here I would compare to other monuments in city/country. 2015-07-11 13:03 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl: Simple question, hard problem: how to recognize (1) memorial from (2) monument? Definitions on Wiki are not clear and I think they need some love to make them easier to use in practice: 1) A feature for tagging smaller memorials, usually remembering special persons, peoples lost their lives in the wars. Memorials can be often found at public greens or cemeteries. 2) A memorial object, especially large (one can go inside, walk on or through it) and made of stone, built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or to commemorate an event. Monuments are often built in homage to past or present political / military leaders or religious figures / deities. So what is a deciding factor here: a) size (all examples of monuments are 15+ m), b) wartime/all other (however military leaders are sometimes also causalities of war), c) unknown and real people / widely known and legendary d) being the landmark (statue in park is typically much less important and visible than the same statue in the middle of a square) or maybe it's just purely subjective choice? It is important for me, because in Warsaw we have a lot of such places and I like to have some uniformity in tagging across the whole city. BTW: memorial can be war_memorial, but it can also be in the form of statue, stone or any other type at the the same type, so it seems the form and function are unfortunately mixed here. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - reception_point
On 11/07/2015 4:32 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote: On 24.06.2015 10:56, Warin wrote There were a significant number against 'desk' (4 voice concerns over 'desk'). My impression was that people didn't object the word 'desk' so much (although some did), but instead the concept of mapping _only_ the desk. As far as I am concerned, drawing an area around the entire area of the reception facility would be the best solution. If the waiting area were mapped as the 'reception_desk/counter/point/whatever it would not tell where the specific place to go to is .. rather it would be the general area .. Is it not better to map that 'go to' point/place/desk/counter/whatever? That is what I would like mapped. This way you know where 'to go' .. reducing the searching of a possibly large and crowed room. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - reception_point
On 24.06.2015 10:56, Warin wrote There were a significant number against 'desk' (4 voice concerns over 'desk'). My impression was that people didn't object the word 'desk' so much (although some did), but instead the concept of mapping _only_ the desk. As far as I am concerned, drawing an area around the entire area of the reception facility would be the best solution. With a reception booth on a campground, this would be the entire booth. With an reception office, this would be the entire office. With a reception desk in a multi-use room, this could be the desk itself plus the receptionists' area behind it. The current proposals, which throw out area mapping entirely and instead mention some unspecified relation, seem a step backwards to me. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] symmetrical guardrails
The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dguard_rail says: If there is a clear inner/outer demarcation to the guard rail, construct the line so that the *right side is inner* and *left side is outer*. Often you find perfectly symmetric guardrails (example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/9-9-x8ynIiIdpNQHeA5CWg) I would like to tag this fact. Any examples or suggestions? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)
I want to make a new definition for the the service=subkey to better define highway=service when used to map the the odd public, maintained, paved, yet extremely narrow, meandering, and often parallel or inconvenient nature of a lot of rural roads in Asia that are used to access sections of farming lands, river embankments, and other roads that run parallel to major/minor roads to allow access to tracks, footpaths, occasional service buildings, and paths, similar to a Alley in an urban setting, which is also a variant of highway=service. I look forward to more feedback before drawing up a wiki page, but you can see my reasoning and 2 good examples below. This is something not covered well by track+grade1 IMO and below unclassified IMO. Javbw On Jul 9, 2015, at 7:02 PM, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Jul 9, 2015, at 4:57 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: I may be wrong, but I've always seen (rural) service roads as (typically relatively short) access ways I normally do too. But Alleys are sometimes a kilometer long, paralleling the major road. This idea is what led me to Alley at first. Ways with a lot of crossings/bifurcations won't be service roads because they will serve some collecting/distribution/through traffic function that goes beyond access to one or two sites. This is the hard part of what I’m trying to explain.. Maybe this occurs in Europe too, but having travelled all over California - driving, biking, trekking - through several hundred miles of tracks through the mountains, on several hundred calls to repair computers in rural areas with farms and ranches - I have never seen anything like the tangle of roads Japan generates - nor the condition the more unimportant roads are kept at. I imagine the easiest way to explain this would be the tangle of residential roads that occurs in old neighborhoods. there is usually one or two unclassified streets that are the main route through the collection of houses, leading to a larger arterial road. and if you really wanted to, you could drive only on the residential roads through the neighborhood, but it would be a total waste of time - as they make you go longer, and keep leading back and crossing the unclassified road over and over. Some may lead off to access the houses on a hill - but there is no reason to go up the hill and back down because there is nothing there besides houses. These roads have a similar density and distribution - but what they access is rice, corn, banboo, and cedar trees. There occasionally is a building, a tower, or a farmer’s house, but for the most part it is a tangle of roads you would never want to be directed down, nor use for “cutting through” because you would be parallel to a better road 200m away or you would keep coming back to a trunk road at intersections with no no safe way to enter traffic. They allow access to the tracks and paths, and link everything back to the unclassified roads, which in turn lad to the larger roads. In rare cases, like my biking example, you might want to traverse the long way through, but seeing them as a bunch of service roads / tracks lets you know exactly what roads are what. Here is a link to the google maps of my area, the area I traversed between towns. many of the rendered roads should be unclassified, but some of them should be classified as a smaller service=rural. A lot of them are tracks as well. the spread of paved roads is enormous, and tangled to hell. https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4266157,139.1978983,6412m/data=!3m1!1e3 here is an area I was mapping a while ago: https://www.google.com/maps/@36.4447783,139.2111792,1603m/data=!3m1!1e3 Which of those is a good road to use? the second choice? and what is a tiny road you would curse being routed down, and what is a track? http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4437/139.2109 this area in particular is a good example of why some kind of service=rural would be useful. I really trust your guys opinion - but this is something I have never seen in America. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails
Depending upon which side of the road the guardrail is on, either the left side or right side may be inner. If there is a distinct inner and outer side, the inner side will always be towards the traffic. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 11, 2015 4:05:21 AM Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote: The wiki page http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dguard_rail says: If there is a clear inner/outer demarcation to the guard rail, construct the line so that the *right side is inner* and *left side is outer*. Often you find perfectly symmetric guardrails (example: http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/9-9-x8ynIiIdpNQHeA5CWg) I would like to tag this fact. Any examples or suggestions? -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)
On Jul 12, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: What you are trying to map is a landuse rather than the highways service? Imagine you live on a farm and you’ve never seen a a big city's alley - how would you explain why there is a narrow road next to the main road? the main road is “too busy?” do they really need to make the road so narrow it is not useful for much else than local access? In the city and suburban areas, we recognize that there is a road below residental/unclassified, but is not a track. We call it an Alley, and define it through highway=service service=alley. Alleys would then connect to driveways, tracks, and other more local access roads. In my extensive driving experience in rural California, OSM’s definition of rural roads works very well. There are no rural alleys. There are service roads for individual facilities, but not in the public/narrow/parallel “alley” sense. But when mapping Rural Japan, IMO, there *is* a road grade between unclassified/residential and Track. It is not too difficult to see them when you live here, but it is difficult to explain. The guy mapping Korea chimed in that it is similar there. The road network in rural ares is *as dense and complicated* as the city to facilitate access to farm field sections or other rural land-uses. The sections are further subdivided by tracks/paths/driveways, like a city. I bet in other very rural, old, and high population density countries (in Asia), this is the case too, if they have money to maintain all of these paved roads. And using track+grade1 on them seems wrong. So I would like to formalize a rural sibling for alley. I called it service=rural, becuase it’s counterpart is found in cities and suburbs. Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails
On Jul 12, 2015, at 4:41 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Depending upon which side of the road the guardrail is on, either the left side or right side may be inner. If there is a distinct inner and outer side, the inner side will always be towards the traffic. Japanese motorway barriers. https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg Countryside https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 Urban There are some guardrails which share support poles with the one for the opposite road, the total set being about 50-80cm wide. If they used separates poles, and had any kind of a gap between them, I could see drawing two ways to represent both guardrails. Unless it is very easy to map both sides of the guardrail ( there is a gap) or putting two ways running in opposite directions on the same nodes, (to represent both guardrails), wouldn’t a “both” value of some kind (like for embankment) be reasonable in some instances? Javbw___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)
I think an additional tag is not necessary. I think is is sufficient to tag them with highway=service. Remember, service=* is simply clarifying the kind of service road. They are definitely not tracks. I remember the discussion about clarifying track grade 1 and I thought it was stretching a point. Routers should have a concept of a road hierarchy, and should prefer higher-classed roads (unless the user specifies otherwise). The simplest router could then make a good route by looking only at highway=*. Maxspeed, lanes, and other information can refine a route, and help make a choice between a speed-limited trunk road and a longer, but unrestricted primary road, for example. To me, the hierarchy is obvious: motorway, trunk, primary, secondary, tertiary, unclassified, service, residential, track. No matter what grade a track is, it should never be chosen in preference to a service road, or unclassified. Andrew On 12/07/2015, johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Jul 12, 2015, at 8:07 AM, Warin 61sundow...@gmail.com wrote: What you are trying to map is a landuse rather than the highways service? Imagine you live on a farm and you’ve never seen a a big city's alley - how would you explain why there is a narrow road next to the main road? the main road is “too busy?” do they really need to make the road so narrow it is not useful for much else than local access? In the city and suburban areas, we recognize that there is a road below residental/unclassified, but is not a track. We call it an Alley, and define it through highway=service service=alley. Alleys would then connect to driveways, tracks, and other more local access roads. In my extensive driving experience in rural California, OSM’s definition of rural roads works very well. There are no rural alleys. There are service roads for individual facilities, but not in the public/narrow/parallel “alley” sense. But when mapping Rural Japan, IMO, there *is* a road grade between unclassified/residential and Track. It is not too difficult to see them when you live here, but it is difficult to explain. The guy mapping Korea chimed in that it is similar there. The road network in rural ares is *as dense and complicated* as the city to facilitate access to farm field sections or other rural land-uses. The sections are further subdivided by tracks/paths/driveways, like a city. I bet in other very rural, old, and high population density countries (in Asia), this is the case too, if they have money to maintain all of these paved roads. And using track+grade1 on them seems wrong. So I would like to formalize a rural sibling for alley. I called it service=rural, becuase it’s counterpart is found in cities and suburbs. Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)
On Jul 12, 2015, at 10:39 AM, Andrew Errington erringt...@gmail.com wrote: I think is is sufficient to tag them with highway=service. Remember, service=* is simply clarifying the kind of service road. yep, Just looking to document this use of highway=service To me, the hierarchy is obvious: motorway, trunk, primary, secondary, tertiary, unclassified, service, residential, track service, to me, usually falls below residential. Alleys, driveways, private roads (inside a commercial or industrial complex) or these rural service roads seem to be “more local” than even residential roads. and everything is above track. Track is the last chance for motor vehicle access, no matter condition. ^_^ Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] symmetrical guardrails
That seems reasonable. I was responding to the idea, stated in the original definition, that the right side of a guardrail would always be the inner side of the guardrail, and the left side would always be outside. In practice, guard rails can be present on either, or both, sides of a roadway, particularly if it is on a raised embankment. The side towards the traffic will be the inner side. As you said, a guardrail dividing two ways may have two inner sides if the supports are shared. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. On July 11, 2015 8:13:01 PM johnw jo...@mac.com wrote: On Jul 12, 2015, at 4:41 AM, John Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Depending upon which side of the road the guardrail is on, either the left side or right side may be inner. If there is a distinct inner and outer side, the inner side will always be towards the traffic. Japanese motorway barriers. https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg https://goo.gl/maps/7iZrg Countryside https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 https://goo.gl/maps/qNir5 Urban There are some guardrails which share support poles with the one for the opposite road, the total set being about 50-80cm wide. If they used separates poles, and had any kind of a gap between them, I could see drawing two ways to represent both guardrails. Unless it is very easy to map both sides of the guardrail ( there is a gap) or putting two ways running in opposite directions on the same nodes, (to represent both guardrails), wouldn’t a “both” value of some kind (like for embankment) be reasonable in some instances? Javbw ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to recognize memorial from monument?
Monument is a large memorial. If you tag a monument with historic=memorial, it's not wrong, but not precise. If it is a statue, add tourism=artwork + artwork_type=sculpture + artist=* + artist:wikidata=* + start_date=* + material=* Janko sub, 11. srp 2015. 13:21 Joachim nore...@freedom-x.de je napisao: The size: If you can walk in it's a monument. There might be cases where there is clearly enough space for many people but no provisions have been made. Here I would compare to other monuments in city/country. 2015-07-11 13:03 GMT+02:00 Daniel Koć daniel@koć.pl: Simple question, hard problem: how to recognize (1) memorial from (2) monument? Definitions on Wiki are not clear and I think they need some love to make them easier to use in practice: 1) A feature for tagging smaller memorials, usually remembering special persons, peoples lost their lives in the wars. Memorials can be often found at public greens or cemeteries. 2) A memorial object, especially large (one can go inside, walk on or through it) and made of stone, built to remember, show respect to a person or group of people or to commemorate an event. Monuments are often built in homage to past or present political / military leaders or religious figures / deities. So what is a deciding factor here: a) size (all examples of monuments are 15+ m), b) wartime/all other (however military leaders are sometimes also causalities of war), c) unknown and real people / widely known and legendary d) being the landmark (statue in park is typically much less important and visible than the same statue in the middle of a square) or maybe it's just purely subjective choice? It is important for me, because in Warsaw we have a lot of such places and I like to have some uniformity in tagging across the whole city. BTW: memorial can be war_memorial, but it can also be in the form of statue, stone or any other type at the the same type, so it seems the form and function are unfortunately mixed here. -- The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down [A. Cohen] ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] service=rural (Was Rural Alley?)
On 11/07/2015 10:43 PM, John Willis wrote: I want to make a new definition for the the service=subkey to better define highway=service when used to map the the odd public, maintained, paved, yet extremely narrow, meandering, and often parallel or inconvenient nature of a lot of rural roads in Asia that are used to access sections of farming lands, river embankments, and other roads that run parallel to major/minor roads to allow access to tracks, footpaths, occasional service buildings, and paths, similar to a Alley in an urban setting, which is also a variant of highway=service. I look forward to more feedback before drawing up a wiki page, but you can see my reasoning and 2 good examples below. This is something not covered well by track+grade1 IMO and below unclassified IMO. What you are trying to map is a landuse rather than the highways service? Would not an urban area have landuse=residential? And that would indicate not rual - the inverse of what you want to tag? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
