Re: [Tagging] Adding floor location information

[johnw]

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 11:04 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> And the tags need to be able to use the local name directly - making the 
> mappers and checkers job easy - as the floor you are on is called the local 
> name ..not some OSM name that has to be looked up each time.


perhaps the addr:floor is good, as that will conform to it’s referred to 
location The mail delivery doesn’t give a crap if the building has an odd 
number scheme - it follows the numbering scheme of the location. 

But as I think about it, a  shop may not have it's floor location referenced in 
it’s address - like  a shop in space # 12 on the 3rd floor may simply be #312 
on the address line,

and

as you say, the floor numbering scheme may not line up with the building levels 
(a building may have missing floor numbers due to superstition or oversized 
floors counted as 2-3 floors for residential unit height sales (higher floor 
numbers sell for more money). One of the trump buildings is “missing” 10 
floors, because the lower floors for retail are oversized and counted as 1.5 
floors each. 

this means we might want to use level:ref=*   most shops reference their level 
with an “f” attached:  Uniqlo 4F  (4th floor) - and using the locations label 
sceme is the best. And some places have 1/2 floors - like the “mezzanine" floor 
at many convention centers, or “lobby” “P3” etc. This would allow for these 
non-numbered values to be used (and rendered/used by data providers) in the 
future if the location is selected in the map and displayed along with the 
point and name=* rendering. 

so level:ref= seems to be a good idea. 


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[Andrew Harvey]

On 29 September 2015 at 13:55, Kieron Thwaites 
wrote:

> Out of all of the below suggestions, I prefer:
>
> leisure:practice=*
> sport=*
>
> This, to me, is the most backwards-compatible option, as you could retain a
> leisure=* tag on the object.  It also gives scope to tag indoor cricket
> nets
> (the larger cricket clubs and major cricket stadiums have these) --
> something
> like leisure:practice=fitness_centre; sport=cricket would work there.
>

So for cricket nets,

leisure=pitch (they are still a kind of pitch)
sport=cricket (they are related to the sport of cricket)
leisure:practice=nets (they are practice pitches, of type nets)
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[johnw]

I’m very hesitant to mix “exercise” and “Practice”  in any way.

When I hear exercise, I think of aerobics or pull-up bars or something - like 
the exercise stations. Those are usually stand-alone facilities or small little 
constructions for the sole purpose of muscle training. 

These practice fields are for practicing a specific action of your sport 
(putting, pitching, hitting, running), but not the complete sport - or in rare 
circumstances, the actual race/event facility itself - eg: a sumo ring, is a 
common outdoor venue at temples in my town, but the sumo ring at my school is 
not a competition venue, it is just for training, and should not be marked as a 
stadium or venue, as that is misleading.

we might want to come up with a sub-key of pitch (leisure=pitch + 
pitch=practice), as they are still pitches, but a special version of pitches. 
prctice=* could contain a few values, but this idea might overlap with other 
keys (like golf=putting_green in golf to practice your putting skill). 

I’m not sure, but whatever the solution, we should keep it far away from 
“exercise”. I think leisure=exersise_station is a good value for those 
stations. Then an exersise_station=* for all the different kinds of stations 
(pull-up bars, sit-up bench, push-up bars, etc). I imagine there are 5-10 basic 
values - but my knowledge (and usage!) is very limited. 

Javbw


> On Sep 29, 2015, at 11:13 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I have come up with
> 
> leisure=exercise?
> 
> exercise=cricket_nets  description: A fenced area where cricket batting and 
> bowling can be practiced.
> 
> And then there can be other 'exercise'
> 
> exercise=exercise_station  example: small areas set aside in parks with 
> features to provide specific exercises. Usually free.
> 
> exercise=fitness_center  example:An establishment with machines to improve 
> physical fitness. Usually for a fee.
> 
> And so on ..
> 
> 
> Or ?
> 
> leisure=practice_pitch ?
> 
> sport=cricket, basketball etc ... this would indicate it is a
> practice pitch .. and that the full sport is played elsewhere.
> 
> This is more restrictive, not covering exercise stations etc.
> umm how about leisure:practice=* that would do track and pitch and could 
> still use sport=
> 
> 
> On 29/09/2015 11:29 AM, johnw wrote:
>> Batting cages, putting greens, driving ranges, Pitching cages (usually 
>> behind a baseball stadium), and interestingly - horse practice tracks - have 
>> all come up in my mapping and faces similar issues.
>> 
>> There must be some way of saying this object is for practice, and then 
>> Identify the sport.
>> 
>> In places with horse racing (San Diego, CA and Narita, Japan), the 
>> surrounding region is usually full of horse ranches. Their horse stables 
>> often have small ovals around the grazing fields and horsewalkers to 
>> practice running the horses - but it is nota private racetrack - so I really 
>> hesitated to tag track on it (I put a circular pitch + sport=[horse 
>> something] on it).  The oval is just for running them, not actually racing 
>> them (no other horses are there to race), nor is the facility meant for 
>> racing - it is a training facility for the horses to be ready for visiting 
>> the actual racetrack.
>> 
>> Similar to a pitchers mound behind the stadium, a basketball hoop on a tree 
>> in the park, or a batting cage, It replicates part of the sport for the 
>> means of practice. We should have a generic tag for that, or a bunch of 
>> explicit tags to put on each type of facility/object.
>> 
>>  Some are lucky - golf=* has a ton of documented values, so it is easy to 
>> put specific values under - but others may not.
>> 
>> Javbw
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 29, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> These are used to warm up and practice Bowelling and batting for cricket.
>>> 
>>> Previously they were tagged leisure=pitch and sport=cricket_net ...
>>> 
>>> But someone has pointed out that this in not a sport...
>>> 
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dcricket_nets
>>> 
>>> so
>>> 
>>> sport_practice=cricket_net
>>> 
>>> A documented suggestion is to use sport=cricket, barrier=fence .. but the 
>>> argument is it is NOT A SPORT so you cannot use sport= anything! :-P
>>> The suggestion is on
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport
>>> 
>>> I'd think similar 'restrictions' will be imposed by the pedantic on other 
>>> pitches that are only used for practice ..for example - half sized 
>>> basketball courts - only used for practice .. not full sized due to space 
>>> restrictions. So not a sport.. just practice.
>>> 
>>> There are similar concerns for sport=exercise, sport=fitness .. these too 
>>> are not sports..
>>> 
>>> So .. what tag to use? leisure=pitch still suits.
>>> 
>>> nonsport= ? :-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[Andrew Harvey]

On 29 September 2015 at 12:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have come up with
>
> leisure=exercise?
>
> exercise=cricket_nets  description: A fenced area where cricket batting
> and bowling can be practiced.
>
> And then there can be other 'exercise'
>
> exercise=exercise_station  example: small areas set aside in parks with
> features to provide specific exercises. Usually free.
>

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/leisure=fitness_station already
exists for that.

leisure=practice_pitch ?
>
> sport=cricket, basketball etc ... this would indicate it is a
> practice pitch .. and that the full sport is played elsewhere.
>

I'm more in favour of this.

I've been tagging cricket nets as sport=cricket_nets, but I'm thinking they
should be sport=cricket (because they are related to the sport of cricket)
and use another tag to indicate they are training nets.

I would prefer something which tagged these as cricket nets, not just
cricket pitches used for practice as there could be practice pitches which
aren't nets.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[Brad Neuhauser]

There is a different approach that some have taken to use the sport as the
key and indicate it is a practice area via the value, for example:

golf=driving_range (sometimes on its own, sometimes with sport=golf,
leisure=golf_course and/or leisure=pitch) [0] [1]
baseball=batting_cage (usually with leisure=pitch, sport=baseball) [2]

[0]
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dgolf_course#Details_within_a_golf_course
[1] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/golf=driving_range
[2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/baseball=batting_cage

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 11:12 PM, Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> On 29 September 2015 at 13:55, Kieron Thwaites 
> wrote:
>
>> Out of all of the below suggestions, I prefer:
>>
>> leisure:practice=*
>> sport=*
>>
>> This, to me, is the most backwards-compatible option, as you could retain
>> a
>> leisure=* tag on the object.  It also gives scope to tag indoor cricket
>> nets
>> (the larger cricket clubs and major cricket stadiums have these) --
>> something
>> like leisure:practice=fitness_centre; sport=cricket would work there.
>>
>
> So for cricket nets,
>
> leisure=pitch (they are still a kind of pitch)
> sport=cricket (they are related to the sport of cricket)
> leisure:practice=nets (they are practice pitches, of type nets)
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[johnw]

> On Sep 29, 2015, at 2:10 PM, Brad Neuhauser  wrote:
> 
> There is a different approach that some have taken to use the sport as the 
> key and indicate it is a practice area via the value, for example:


Then:

cricket=practice_nets
equestrian=practice_track
basketball=hoop (practice is assumed, and point location is okay(?))
sumo=practice_ring

?

This would make it very specific, but require a lot of different tags. 


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Re: [Tagging] Adding floor location information

[Marc Gemis]

>
> a)  is there a best practice to arrange all the point tags for the shops
> placed on/in the Mall polygon?
>
>
The guys from Mappa Mercia, are doing something similar right now. [1] You
might want to take a look at the discussion on talk-gb [2]

regards

m

[1]
http://www.mappa-mercia.org/2015/09/birmingham-new-street-station-re-opens.html
[2]
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-September/017784.html
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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2015-09-28 at 16:25 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> Am 28.09.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Philip Barnes :
> 
> > > Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> > I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 
> 
> 
> In some cases I would prefer to have 2 different objects here, as
> many properties/attributes  of these may be different. E.g. do they
> have the same opening hours? The same entrance? The same phone
> number? The same name? The same operating business? Does the
> hotelstar rating (if any) apply to the pub? 
They do have the same entrance, the same phone number, the same opening
hours (at least to check-in). The bar staff will check you in at the
bar in between serving beer and the chances are your breakfast will be
served in the bar.
The hotel star rating wouldn't apply to the pub, although you could tag
if it has a GBG sticker on the door :).



> 
> Maybe it's not a problem (e.g. same name and operator, but different
> phone numbers and opening hours could be hotel:phone
> hotel:opening_hours), but if significant properties are different it
> would be better to use distinct osm objects.
You are imagining much bigger, urban, hotels than the usecase I am
thinking.


> 
> > 
> > The hotel also being the pub is very common.
> 
> 
> like sleeping on the tables or drinking in the beds? Surely they
> don't use the same physical space (e.g. ground floor vs. upper
> floor), but I agree that there are businesses that do both, run a pub
> and offer accommodation, and where the whole thing could be seen as
> one entity, maybe there is even room for a new tag, like amenity=inn?

Well you don't usually sleep in the bar, although happens occasionally
in my local :) Bedrooms are separate, but they will allow you to take a
beer to your room.


> There's also the word "tavern", Wikipedia en mentions that both, inn
> and tavern (which had become used interchangeably) had been replaced
> by "pub" ;-)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavern#Great_Britain

Both Inn and Tavern are not really in common useage, tavern tended to
apply to something in a town or city.

Adding a new tag, I think defeats the object, if you are looking for a
pub then you are unlikely to search for an inn.
> 
> Then there are also hotels with (even several) "pubs" and restaurants
> inside them.
> These cases are best mapped with a hotel object (polygon) and pub and
> restaurant objects inside it (IMHO).
For larger places I would agree, although large hotels have bars rather
than a pub.

An example where I have used this tagging 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/699950932

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

Am 28.09.2015 um 13:45 schrieb Philip Barnes :

>> Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 


In some cases I would prefer to have 2 different objects here, as many 
properties/attributes  of these may be different. E.g. do they have the same 
opening hours? The same entrance? The same phone number? The same name? The 
same operating business? Does the hotelstar rating (if any) apply to the pub? 

Maybe it's not a problem (e.g. same name and operator, but different phone 
numbers and opening hours could be hotel:phone hotel:opening_hours), but if 
significant properties are different it would be better to use distinct osm 
objects.


> 
> The hotel also being the pub is very common.


like sleeping on the tables or drinking in the beds? Surely they don't use the 
same physical space (e.g. ground floor vs. upper floor), but I agree that there 
are businesses that do both, run a pub and offer accommodation, and where the 
whole thing could be seen as one entity, maybe there is even room for a new 
tag, like amenity=inn? There's also the word "tavern", Wikipedia en mentions 
that both, inn and tavern (which had become used interchangeably) had been 
replaced by "pub" ;-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tavern#Great_Britain

Then there are also hotels with (even several) "pubs" and restaurants inside 
them.
These cases are best mapped with a hotel object (polygon) and pub and 
restaurant objects inside it (IMHO).

cheers 
Martin 


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2015 15:24, Georg Feddern wrote:

Am 28.09.2015 um 14:46 schrieb Andy Townsend:


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 
nodes within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes 
for those.




Why not the already established tourism=guest_house for this B offer?


This particular example isn't really a guest house (or a B for that 
matter).  Handily, there's an example of a guest house just down the 
street at http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/185207730 .


So what's "guest-housy" about one vs "not-guest-housy" about the other?  
How about a quiet downstairs lounge in one vs a crowded bar full of 
welsh people trying to buy beer in the other, and a nicely maintained 
garden with some bee-hives in it vs a muddy area where the beer festival 
tent was?  FWIW the pub's an excellent pub and the guest-house is an 
excellent guest-house, but they're not really the same animal.  You 
could perhaps make a case for "tourism=bed_and_breakfast" or it's 
slightly less popular cousin "guest_house=bed_and_breakfast" for the 
pub, but that's a different argument.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Georg Feddern]

Am 28.09.2015 um 14:46 schrieb Andy Townsend:


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 
nodes within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes for 
those.




Why not the already established tourism=guest_house for this B offer?

Regards,
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon Sep 28 12:09:29 2015 GMT+0100, Dave F. wrote:
> Hi
> 
> How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged? 
> 'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag 
> to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?
> 
I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned. 

The hotel also being the pub is very common.

Phil (trigpoint) 
-- 
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[Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Dave F.]

Hi

How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged? 
'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag 
to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?


Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[johnw]

Batting cages, putting greens, driving ranges, Pitching cages (usually behind a 
baseball stadium), and interestingly - horse practice tracks - have all come up 
in my mapping and faces similar issues. 

There must be some way of saying this object is for practice, and then Identify 
the sport. 

In places with horse racing (San Diego, CA and Narita, Japan), the surrounding 
region is usually full of horse ranches. Their horse stables often have small 
ovals around the grazing fields and horsewalkers to practice running the horses 
- but it is nota private racetrack - so I really hesitated to tag track on it 
(I put a circular pitch + sport=[horse something] on it).  The oval is just for 
running them, not actually racing them (no other horses are there to race), nor 
is the facility meant for racing - it is a training facility for the horses to 
be ready for visiting the actual racetrack.  

Similar to a pitchers mound behind the stadium, a basketball hoop on a tree in 
the park, or a batting cage, It replicates part of the sport for the means of 
practice. We should have a generic tag for that, or a bunch of explicit tags to 
put on each type of facility/object.

 Some are lucky - golf=* has a ton of documented values, so it is easy to put 
specific values under - but others may not. 

Javbw


> On Sep 29, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> These are used to warm up and practice Bowelling and batting for cricket.
> 
> Previously they were tagged leisure=pitch and sport=cricket_net ...
> 
> But someone has pointed out that this in not a sport...
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dcricket_nets
> 
> so
> 
> sport_practice=cricket_net
> 
> A documented suggestion is to use sport=cricket, barrier=fence .. but the 
> argument is it is NOT A SPORT so you cannot use sport= anything! :-P
> The suggestion is on
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport
> 
> I'd think similar 'restrictions' will be imposed by the pedantic on other 
> pitches that are only used for practice ..for example - half sized basketball 
> courts - only used for practice .. not full sized due to space restrictions. 
> So not a sport.. just practice.
> 
> There are similar concerns for sport=exercise, sport=fitness .. these too are 
> not sports..
> 
> So .. what tag to use? leisure=pitch still suits.
> 
> nonsport= ? :-)
> 
> 
> 
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[Tagging] Adding floor location information

[johnw]

I am mapping Tokyo Dome City, which is a maze of overlapping amenities (an 
amusement park on top of a shopping mall with a giant pedestrian area with 
fountains and ramps, bridges, staircases everywhere).  The current issue I am 
investigating is how to map a large amount of shops onto a single building - 
the LaQua mall there has over 50 or 60 shops, a spa, rollercoaster, ferris 
wheel, and a few other odd things all stacked into 1/3 a city block. 

I took a train to another part of Tokyo looking for a shop that was right there 
in the mall I was in, because it wasn’t even in Google Maps.  I want to add all 
the shops of the malls I visit to OSM, but as I get closer to Tokyo, the malls 
get taller and taller ( 0101 at Kita-senju station is 9 floors of 100 shops or 
so in 100x100m), and the new Lumine mall is directly over Kitasenju’s 4 
combined stations), which would lead to an unfathomable amount of tag rendering 
pollution, so…


a)  is there a best practice to arrange all the point tags for the shops placed 
on/in the Mall polygon?


b) indicating floor level in the mall is useful, and looking at the wiki shows 
that the tag addr:floor=* is suggested - but it only has 158 uses - which is 
amazingly small. is this the right key to indicate what floor a shop is on? 

Javbw
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[Tagging] How to tag cricket nets?

[Warin]

These are used to warm up and practice Bowelling and batting for cricket.

Previously they were tagged leisure=pitch and sport=cricket_net ...

But someone has pointed out that this in not a sport...

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:sport%3Dcricket_nets

 so

sport_practice=cricket_net

A documented suggestion is to use sport=cricket, barrier=fence .. but 
the argument is it is NOT A SPORT so you cannot use sport= anything! :-P

The suggestion is on
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sport

I'd think similar 'restrictions' will be imposed by the pedantic on 
other pitches that are only used for practice ..for example - half sized 
basketball courts - only used for practice .. not full sized due to 
space restrictions. So not a sport.. just practice.


There are similar concerns for sport=exercise, sport=fitness .. these 
too are not sports..


So .. what tag to use? leisure=pitch still suits.

nonsport= ? :-)



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Re: [Tagging] Pubs with accommodation

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/09/2015 12:45, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Mon Sep 28 12:09:29 2015 GMT+0100, Dave F. wrote:

Hi

How should public houses (inns) that provide accommodation be tagged?
'Accommodation=*' with only 249 examples doesn't appear to to be the tag
to use. Is it acceptable to combine amenity=pub & tourism=hotel?


I think so, then whichever is searched will be returned.

The hotel also being the pub is very common.

Phil (trigpoint)


Depends on the pub, I'd say.  Some places are both a hotel and a pub, 
some have essentially separate "hotel" and "pub" bits (for which 2 nodes 
within a building might work)  and some (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/75844692 ) are pubs that do 
accommodation, but not really hotels, so I'd use accommodation=yes for 
those.


Cheers,

Andy


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