Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 16:38:52 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 3/10/2015 4:23 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:14:15 +0900
> > johnw  wrote:
> >
> >>> On Oct 2, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> suggests replacement of
> >>> waterway=wadi and waterway=drystream
> >>> with
> >>> waterway=river or stream
> >> This is idiotic.
> >>
> >> I’m going to start tagging Interstate 5 in San Diego as an
> >> intermittent river that just happens to be a motorway 99.95 percent
> >> of it’s life. I have hydroplaned down it for a good mile or so, so
> >> I’m going to say that is good enough to constitute an intermittent
> >> river.
> >>
> >>
> >> A wash/wadi is a feature created /changed by water but used and
> >> navigated as a dry feature. it very very rarely has water.
> >>
> >> I’m guessing the people who are interested in tagging
> >> “drystreams” (the fisrt time I have heard that), are not really
> >> familiar with what a wadi or a wash is, nor have spent time in them
> >> during their dominant dry state (nor seen them catastrophically
> >> flood).
> > Where wiki recommends converting all waterway=wadi to
> > waterway=river or stream with intermittent=yes?
> >
> > On http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi there is
> > "For intermittent waterways use waterway=river/waterway=stream +
> > intermittent=yes. For valleys natural=valley"
> True ..
> but on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
> "It has been recommended to stop using this tag. Use a combination of 
> /waterway=river/ and /intermittent=yes/ instead."
> 
> Looks like that has been there since 2008.

(a) Good catch. I attempted to improve it in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:waterway=1224534=1224466

(b) Thanks to overly complex templating real history is at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:waterway=history

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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 10:05:57 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > Am 03.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> > 
> > but on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway 
> > "It has been recommended to stop using this tag. Use a combination
> > of waterway=river and intermittent=yes instead."
> > 
> > Looks like that has been there since 2008.
> 
> 
> apparently people didn't follow this recommendation, there are now
> 13600 instances of this tag, strangely some in central and northern
> Europe and even in Siberia ;-)
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/waterway=wadi#map

On 13 March 2015 it was 18 343, so there is a noticeable trend.

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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.10.2015 um 10:37 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> On 13 March 2015 it was 18 343, so there is a noticeable trend.


by looking at the map it seems someone has cleaned up the Americas, there's not 
a single one remaining 


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.10.2015 um 11:14 schrieb johnw :
> 
> The people who live with washes and wadis call them washes and wadis and 
> representing them in OSM as a river is ignoring regional conventions and 
> trying to shoehorn temperate ideas into desert tagging. And rendering them 
> like a river makes a crappier map. 


I agree. Actually I believe wadis should be tagged as waterway=wadi while 
washes could get waterway=wash (don't know or care because there aren't any 
around here).

We don't call buddhist temples churches, why should we call washes wadi?

A wadi is a particular kind of intermittent watercourse and not a universal 
word for any similar kind.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 21:50:56 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >> Prior to April 2014 the wiki for intermittent had no reference to
> >> 'seasonal' in its description.
> > And I would not be against removing them. I am only against
> > restricting intermittent=yes to random lack of water.
> >
> > Stream that disappears every summer IMHO should be tagged as
> > [waterway=stream, intermittent=yes, seasonal=yes].
> 
> If it disappears every summer then it is seasonal, not intermittent.

Can you provide sources that in hydrology "intermittent waterway" does
not apply to regular appearance/disappearance of water?

According to what I found[1] "intermittent waterway" include not only
"random" disappearance of water. It explicitly includes
case of "Intermittent streams flow seasonally".

> Intermittent does not mean seasonal...

Nobody claims that.

> > In case that using intermittent for "waterway does not have a
> > permanent flow/waterbody does not have a permanent presence" is
> > clearly bad we need tag is needed to cover this information.
> 
> That tag exists .. it is 'intermittent' as defined before April 2014.
> The  meaning of 'intermittent' on the wiki was changed in April
> 2014 ... before that it had no relationship to seasonal. And was
> correct! The change is not a depreciation but a clarification.
> 
> To me and some others the use by some in OSM of intermittent is now
> used incorrectly. And that should stop.

And recent edits removed mentions of "seasonal" restoring state before
April 2014 - see
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aintermittent=1224529=789604

> random, no relation to seasons (intermittent)

Can you provide sources that in hydrology "intermittent waterway" does
not apply to regular appearance/disappearance of water?

According to what I found[1] "intermittent waterway" include not only
"random" disappearance of water. It explicitly includes
case of "Intermittent streams flow seasonally".

[1]

 "Intermittent streams flow seasonally in response to snowmelt and/or
 elevated groundwater tables resulting from increased periods of
 precipitation and/or decreased evapotranspiration." from "Temporary
 streams" by Margaret Palmer, or
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_stream " "Perennial" streams
 are contrasted with "intermittent" streams which normally cease
 flowing for weeks or months each year, and with "ephemeral" channels
 that flow only for hours or days following rainfall." or
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream#Intermittent_and_ephemeral_streams . 

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag this machine ?

[Marc Gemis]

Thanks for the suggestion Mateusz, I've added a link to images on
wikimedia.

regards

m

p.s. My smugmug site is only slightly younger than wikimedia and could be
considered stable as well :-)


On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 8:46 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 20:43:53 +0200
> Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> > How do I have to tag this machine [1][2][3] ?
> >
> > I was used to dig / transport clay.
> >
> > thanks in advance
> >
> > regards
> >
> > m
> >
> >
> > [1]
> > https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2015/2015-09-30-De-Schorre/i-8vZcdSz
> > [2]
> > https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2015/2015-09-30-De-Schorre/i-NxZhQSf
> > [3]
> > https://xian.smugmug.com/OSM/OSM-2015/2015-09-30-De-Schorre/i-hHnSCj5
>
> I found
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Goods_conveyor
>
> Especially in case of doubts like here it would be a good idea to use
> also
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikimedia_commons
> linking to a stable picture, what should make future editing easier.
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag this machine ?

[Warin]

On 3/10/2015 10:09 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 11:48:06 +0200
Marc Gemis  wrote:


Thanks for the suggestion Mateusz, I've added a link to images on
wikimedia.

regards

m

p.s. My smugmug site is only slightly younger than wikimedia and
could be considered stable as well :-)

In that case - "image" tag may be also used :)



Nice to see smugmug used here.

As the 'machinery' is now 'disused' 'abandoned' those may also be good 
to use.
If it is going to be left in place as a tourist historic kind of thing 
then historic monument may be appropriate?


It really depends on what the intention is?
If simply abandoned ... then there is nothing to stop a scrap metal 
merchant for coming and collecting it.
If it is going to form some sort of historic tourist type thing then 
those kind of tags would be good.
If you don't know then disused:man_made=goods_conveyor would be a 
minimum...


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Warin]

On 3/10/2015 6:41 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 16:38:52 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


On 3/10/2015 4:23 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:14:15 +0900
johnw  wrote:


On Oct 2, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

suggests replacement of
waterway=wadi and waterway=drystream
with
waterway=river or stream

This is idiotic.

I’m going to start tagging Interstate 5 in San Diego as an
intermittent river that just happens to be a motorway 99.95 percent
of it’s life. I have hydroplaned down it for a good mile or so, so
I’m going to say that is good enough to constitute an intermittent
river.


A wash/wadi is a feature created /changed by water but used and
navigated as a dry feature. it very very rarely has water.

I’m guessing the people who are interested in tagging
“drystreams” (the fisrt time I have heard that), are not really
familiar with what a wadi or a wash is, nor have spent time in them
during their dominant dry state (nor seen them catastrophically
flood).


Lake Eyre has been used to set a land speed record ...
of course the weather being what the weather is ... it got wet which delayed 
the record setting activities for quote some time.
(The lake has no drain .. just evaporation.)

I have never driven on it... salt is fairly corrosive. And you cannot tell if 
the surface will support the weight until you test it.
Of course  water to wash a vehicle is hard to find out there!

I have seen the result of people driving on a salt pan ... for 'fun'.
They spent quite a time getting out, and an unexpected laundry wash shortly 
afterwards.
They were lucky the laundry was such a short distance away .. only 150 kms.
I wonder what happened to that vehicle... must try not to buy that one.

Maybe I too should tag Lake Eyre as a highway area .. access permissive?;-)   
I'm sure the local pub would approve, but the local National Parks people would be upset. The local cop is too far away... I think.
 


Where wiki recommends converting all waterway=wadi to
waterway=river or stream with intermittent=yes?

On http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi there is
"For intermittent waterways use waterway=river/waterway=stream +
intermittent=yes. For valleys natural=valley"

True ..
but on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
"It has been recommended to stop using this tag. Use a combination of
/waterway=river/ and /intermittent=yes/ instead."

Looks like that has been there since 2008.

(a) Good catch. I attempted to improve it in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:waterway=1224534=1224466

(b) Thanks to overly complex templating real history is at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Map_Features:waterway=history


It will be better after 'our improvements', one hopes. Of course others may 
change it latter too... hopefully it won't get worse.
It might be better to send them to the key page .. and keep it all in one place.
Humm .. on the key page .. how about a link the the relevant map feature's page 
.. ? I'll sleep on it.


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[johnw]

> On Oct 3, 2015, at 3:23 PM, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Where wiki recommends converting all waterway=wadi to waterway=river or
> stream with intermittent=yes?
> 
> On http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi 
>  there is
> "For intermittent waterways use waterway=river/waterway=stream +
> intermittent=yes. For valleys natural=valley"


It is not a valley. it’s the flat sandy are inside the valley. and it usually 
extends out from a valley into a plain.  and the wash is singularly named, 
inside the gorge or out on the plain.

A wash/wadi is a named feature in OSM for a reason. Because it isn’t a river, 
nor is used/treated like one is - mainly because they occur in a very different 
kind of climate. They are (informally?) called “washes” in the US. They are 
basically flood control channels for the desert, and only receive water in 
flash flood conditions, like avalanches. Most of the ones I know have roads up 
them. Not along them. Not across them. In them. And you can go out driving on 
them year round - except for the 1-2 days a year (usually for 6-12 hours) 
randomly when they would have water from rain in the mountains that created the 
desert. This varies with the El-nino- La nina cycle in California, but 
basically the wash is open and dry ~ 360 days a year. 

 The wash is the overflow channel/cover for the tiny tiny creek (usually 
underground) that suddenly receives a massive torrent of dangerous flash flood 
water from the mountains, which disappears in the course course of a single 
day, usually only a very few times a year. Only once in my life, thanks to a 
massive El Nino storm set lasting a month, have I seen water in a wash longer 
than a day.

They are called washes and not streams nor rivers for a reason - because their 
dominant state and useful state is dry and flat sand.


Please see this as a example of a wash. This is the biggest wash I know of - 
Carrizo Wash. I learned to drive in this area when I was 12.  This is what 
people do in washes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4frwfCnCTg 


Carrizo Creek is is in the gorge. It is an intermittent stream (not seasonal). 
The gorge holds the wash. The wash is over the creek.  **The wash is the sandy 
area, 10-400m wide**  at the bottom. The gorge disappears, leaving the wash by 
itself.  Here is the wash where it leaves the mountains and heads to the open 
desert. the “valley” walls are 2m high for this 400m wide wash after it leaves 
the mountains here. Imagine 2m of water flowing through it for 6 hours. Then 
disappearing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.848337,-116.20125,3a,79.3y,182.86h,77.26t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sb-zcFlLD-gtgKjdDCWdIFw!2e0
 


The wash, with the intermittent creek hidden in the sand below, heads to a sink 
in the middle of the desert - the Salton Sea. 

Please note the tire tracks. This is because it is the only practical place to 
drive in the desert (the rest is craggy and rocky). 

Why don’t we call all canals rivers? drains?rivers too? There’s no room for 
wadi/wash in the tagging scheme? 

The people who live with washes and wadis call them washes and wadis and 
representing them in OSM as a river is ignoring regional conventions and trying 
to shoehorn temperate ideas into desert tagging. And rendering them like a 
river makes a crappier map. 

Like tagging a motorway as a river. 


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Warin]

On 3/10/2015 6:51 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 21:50:56 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


Prior to April 2014 the wiki for intermittent had no reference to
'seasonal' in its description.

And I would not be against removing them. I am only against
restricting intermittent=yes to random lack of water.

Stream that disappears every summer IMHO should be tagged as
[waterway=stream, intermittent=yes, seasonal=yes].

If it disappears every summer then it is seasonal, not intermittent.


snip


Can you provide sources that in hydrology "intermittent waterway" does
not apply to regular appearance/disappearance of water?

According to what I found[1] "intermittent waterway" include not only
"random" disappearance of water. It explicitly includes
case of "Intermittent streams flow seasonally".

[1]

  "Intermittent streams flow seasonally in response to snowmelt and/or
  elevated groundwater tables resulting from increased periods of
  precipitation and/or decreased evapotranspiration." from "Temporary
  streams" by Margaret Palmer, or
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_stream " "Perennial" streams
  are contrasted with "intermittent" streams which normally cease
  flowing for weeks or months each year, and with "ephemeral" channels
  that flow only for hours or days following rainfall." or
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stream#Intermittent_and_ephemeral_streams .





The 3 cases are;

Seasonally: flows on a yearly cycle.
Intermittent: flows randomly, no pattern nor season.

Combination - Seasonal and intermittent: Where the flow _may_ only take 
palace in one or more (but not the whole year) season/s but does so 
randomly within that period.



I think your text is the combination case .. poorly worded but that is 
what it is.


Quote - "_Intermittent_  streams flow_seasonally_" - both words used ... In 
this case use both tags!

If I can make it clearer?

Misquote 1
"Intermittent streams flow in response to snowmelt"

In this case the flow is random in response to the snow melt, if the snow is 
deep enough .. it flows when it melts.

Misquote 2
"streams flow seasonally in response to snowmelt"

In this case the flow is seasonal in response to the snow melt.

Combining the two .. both seasonal and intermittent... poorly done and I can 
see how it is open to misinterpretation..
I think you have taken the quote as a meaning of intermittent.. I don't think 
that is the case.
Writing a text that is both technically correct, easy to understand and 
entertaining ... well that is a difficult job!


As I say it is poorly worded, but reading further in, from what is given, I get 
that
it only happens on snow melt - so only in spring- thus seasonal,
and then only if the snow is deep- so intermittent.

Does that help?

Again: Intermittent does not mean seasonal.
Intermittent does not imply a ratio of wet to dry either.. it may be wet 
'typically' once every 3 years. Or dry 'typically' once a week.
If that information is required then at least one new key is needed ... 
probably a few of them, typical frequency, typical wet to dry ratio to 
start with.


OK?

PS I have tried to find that book ... not listed on an Australia wide 
search...

http://trove.nla.gov.au/book/result?q-field0==all==title%3A=all=Temporary++streams=creator%3A=all=Margaret+Palmer=subject%3A=all===

That is a public search, not research search. As in public libraries 
rather than scientific papers.
It should show up if it were in the university libraries though. But 
some of them have thrown their books out - to rely on electronic issues.
I have had to purchased a few books I could not get in Australia.. 
abebooks is good..








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Re: [Tagging] How to tag this machine ?

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Oct 3, 2015 at 2:32 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> As the 'machinery' is now 'disused' 'abandoned' those may also be good to
> use.
> If it is going to be left in place as a tourist historic kind of thing
> then historic monument may be appropriate?
>

I added the disused tags. I have no idea what they want to do with it. It's
there for years at least before 1994, when I moved into this area. Although
I had never seen it before, but the area is a recreational area ever since
we came to live here.

regards

m
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag this machine ?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 11:48:06 +0200
Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Thanks for the suggestion Mateusz, I've added a link to images on
> wikimedia.
> 
> regards
> 
> m
> 
> p.s. My smugmug site is only slightly younger than wikimedia and
> could be considered stable as well :-)

In that case - "image" tag may be also used :)

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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Warin]

On 3/10/2015 10:37 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 03.10.2015 um 11:14 schrieb johnw :

The people who live with washes and wadis call them washes and wadis and 
representing them in OSM as a river is ignoring regional conventions and trying 
to shoehorn temperate ideas into desert tagging. And rendering them like a 
river makes a crappier map.


I agree. Actually I believe wadis should be tagged as waterway=wadi while 
washes could get waterway=wash (don't know or care because there aren't any 
around here).


The only wadi I 'know' is the one in "Lawrence of Arabia" Wadi Rum ... I 
suspect others have as much knowledge of them and as many local features named wadi.
Thus I don't use this tag


We don't call buddhist temples churches, why should we call washes wadi?

A wadi is a particular kind of intermittent watercourse and not a universal 
word for any similar kind.


As I don't really know what a wash nor a wadi is I would not say what is is ... 
I'd leave it to others with more knowledge.


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I will respond to other parts later.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:58:25 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Again: Intermittent does not mean seasonal.

I never claimed this. AFAIK nobody claimed that. What is the point of
repeating it?

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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Warin]

On 4/10/2015 5:29 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

I will respond to other parts later.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2015 21:58:25 +1000
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


Again: Intermittent does not mean seasonal.

I never claimed this. AFAIK nobody claimed that. What is the point of
repeating it?



Because you latter say

On 3/10/2015 6:51 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

Can you provide sources that in hydrology "intermittent waterway" does
not apply to regular appearance/disappearance of water?


A thought

Most texts have errata published for them - corrections to errors found after 
their printing.

If there are no erratum for that text a note to the Author through the 
publisher may clarify the meaning of the text you have quoted.

I'd think an additional word in the quoted text would make all plain .. the 
word 'that' in the middle of  'streams flow' for instance.


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Warin]

On 3/10/2015 4:23 PM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:14:15 +0900
johnw  wrote:


On Oct 2, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

suggests replacement of
waterway=wadi and waterway=drystream
with
waterway=river or stream

This is idiotic.

I’m going to start tagging Interstate 5 in San Diego as an
intermittent river that just happens to be a motorway 99.95 percent
of it’s life. I have hydroplaned down it for a good mile or so, so
I’m going to say that is good enough to constitute an intermittent
river.


A wash/wadi is a feature created /changed by water but used and
navigated as a dry feature. it very very rarely has water.

I’m guessing the people who are interested in tagging
“drystreams” (the fisrt time I have heard that), are not really
familiar with what a wadi or a wash is, nor have spent time in them
during their dominant dry state (nor seen them catastrophically
flood).

Where wiki recommends converting all waterway=wadi to waterway=river or
stream with intermittent=yes?

On http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi there is
"For intermittent waterways use waterway=river/waterway=stream +
intermittent=yes. For valleys natural=valley"

True ..
but on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway
"It has been recommended to stop using this tag. Use a combination of 
/waterway=river/ and /intermittent=yes/ instead."


Looks like that has been there since 2008.


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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 03.10.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> but on http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:waterway 
> "It has been recommended to stop using this tag. Use a combination of 
> waterway=river and intermittent=yes instead."
> 
> Looks like that has been there since 2008.


apparently people didn't follow this recommendation, there are now 13600 
instances of this tag, strangely some in central and northern Europe and even 
in Siberia ;-)
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/waterway=wadi#map

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Re: [Tagging] intermittent vs seasonal

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:14:15 +0900
johnw  wrote:

> 
> > On Oct 2, 2015, at 2:14 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > suggests replacement of 
> > waterway=wadi and waterway=drystream
> > with 
> > waterway=river or stream 
> This is idiotic. 
> 
> I’m going to start tagging Interstate 5 in San Diego as an
> intermittent river that just happens to be a motorway 99.95 percent
> of it’s life. I have hydroplaned down it for a good mile or so, so
> I’m going to say that is good enough to constitute an intermittent
> river. 
> 
> 
> A wash/wadi is a feature created /changed by water but used and
> navigated as a dry feature. it very very rarely has water.
> 
> I’m guessing the people who are interested in tagging
> “drystreams” (the fisrt time I have heard that), are not really
> familiar with what a wadi or a wash is, nor have spent time in them
> during their dominant dry state (nor seen them catastrophically
> flood). 

Where wiki recommends converting all waterway=wadi to waterway=river or
stream with intermittent=yes?

On http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi there is
"For intermittent waterways use waterway=river/waterway=stream +
intermittent=yes. For valleys natural=valley"

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