Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] shop=chemist as "Drugstore" for Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, etc.

[Jack Burke]

Interesting. I've been tagging most large pharmacies as shop=convenience and 
amenity=pharmacy since I tend to think of them as convenience stores as much as 
pharmacies. 

-jack

-- 
Typos courtesy of fancy auto spell technology

On July 5, 2016 1:08:26 PM EDT, Peter Dobratz  wrote:
>After arriving at a local drugstore chain with a prescription in hand,
>walking past the shampoo aisle, only to find that the pharmacy counter
>is
>closed for the day, I've been updating tagging of drugstores and
>pharmacies
>as described here.
>
>For example, there is a Walgreens:
>
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/266495943
>
>The building outline has shop=chemist.
>
>Inside the building, there are 2 Nodes, one for the pharmacy and one
>for a
>clinic:
>
>amenity=pharmacy
>dispensing=yes
>drive_through=yes
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4064469934
>
>amenity=doctors
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4064469933
>
>In this case, all of these entities have different opening hours. 
>Other
>contact info like phone and website may be different as well.
>
>
>For the older style independent pharmacy, I do still use
>amenity=pharmacy
>on the building outline:
>
>http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/218176300
>
>They do sell a few items like bandages without a prescription, but they
>don't have the extensive personal hygiene section of typical of the
>drugstore chains.  The pharmacist is also on duty for the entire time
>this
>shop is open, so it doesn't feel like there are two separate entities
>operating in the space.
>
>Peter
>
>
>On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 8:45 AM, Minh Nguyen
>
>wrote:
>
>> Recently, iD was changed so that shop=chemist is labeled as
>"Drugstore"
>> for American English users (and continues to be labeled "Chemist" for
>> British English users). [1] An American mapping a Walgreens, CVS, or
>Rite
>> Aid who searches for "drugs" will see the following choices, in
>order:
>>
>> * Drugstore (shop=chemist, marked with a shopping cart icon)
>> * Pharmacy (amenity=pharmacy, marked with a pill bottle)
>>
>> Meanwhile, searching for "pharmacy" -- a synonym of "drugstore" in
>> American English -- produces only the amenity=pharmacy preset.
>>
>> The rationale is that amenity=pharmacy should be used only for
>pharmacy
>> counters (which can be found at both drugstores and inside
>supermarkets),
>> while shop=chemist should be used for full-service drugstores that
>*may*
>> contain pharmacy counters. Currently, this is at odds with the wiki
>and
>> longstanding practice, which stipulates that a shop=chemist *may not*
>fill
>> prescriptions.
>>
>> This change to iD came about due to a discussion in the Name
>Suggestion
>> Index project, which is the component in iD that suggests tags when
>you
>> fill in a commonly used name. [2] I happened to notice the change
>because
>> it caused Transifex to prompt me to update iD's Vietnamese
>localization. To
>> my knowledge, there has been no discussion on the mailing lists or
>formal
>> proposal on the wiki, though the iD maintainer intends to edit the
>wiki to
>> match iD's interpretation. iD is the only software that has made this
>> change.
>>
>> On the one hand, I've come around to liking the proposal, because it
>makes
>> it easier for data consumers to distinguish between pharmacy counters
>and
>> full-fledged drugstores. On the other hand, I think it's problematic
>> because an American mapping a Walgreens or CVS could potentially tag
>a
>> "drugstore" and be unaware that they'd need to separately map the
>pharmacy
>> counter in order to indicate that prescriptions may be filled
>on-site.
>>
>> Currently, amenity=pharmacy is far and away more common than
>shop=chemist
>> in the U.S. as a way to tag drugstores. Certainly anyone retagging
>> amenity=pharmacy to shop=chemist would be careful to add an
>additional
>> amenity=pharmacy POI where the pharmacy counter would be. (For a
>typical
>> Walgreens or CVS, it'd be next to the drive-through canopy.) However,
>I
>> have little faith that the average iD user would know to do the same,
>since
>> the word "drugstore", like "pharmacy", implies the sale of
>prescription
>> drugs.
>>
>> I've hashed out many of these points in [3], but I think the
>discussion
>> needs to involve the wider OSM community now. There's little chance
>of data
>> consumers and other editors updating their logic if the change is
>only
>> discussed in the iD project.
>>
>> [1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3201
>> [2] https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/30
>> [3] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3213
>>
>> --
>> m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>
>
>
>
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[Tagging] Non formal education

[wille]

Hello,

I'm new in this discussion list, sorry if this subject was already
discussed.

I believe we don't have approved tags for non formal education
institutions, like language schools, music and other art schools, etc. I
saw that there are two proposals, one for amenity=music_school and other to
amenity=language_school. On other side we have a proposal of
amenity=training, with an additional tag training=*.

How can I help to accelerate the approval of one of these tags, so our
editor software could support and stimulate the users to map it in a proper
way?

I think amenity=training plus training=* is the better way to map it, but
I'm not sure if training is the best word to describe those places. What do
you think about it?

Best regards,

-- 
Wille
http://wille.blog.br
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a scrap yard?

[ael]

On Tue, Jul 05, 2016 at 08:11:04AM +1000, Warin wrote:
> > 
> > > > rather widely is amenity=recycling + recycling=scrap_metal:
> > 
> > But please follow the stream:
> > 
> > amenity=recycling   164677x
> > recycling_type=centre 8200x
> > recycling:scrap_metal 9000x

The wiki says:
"Centres are dedicated ... recyclable household materials."
The place I am tagging deals mainly with industrial and commercial
scrap, although they will *collect* suitable domestic metals if they are
passing.  

Either the wiki is too restrictive, or there is a need for more refined
tagging.

This fits with my previous comment that recycling_type=business feels
like a better fit. "centre" does suggest somewhere open as a public
facility.

Both scrap yards near me are in old quarries and not necessarily open
to casual callers: they don't feel like "centres"...


ael

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Re: [Tagging] shop=chemist as "Drugstore" for Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, etc.

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-05 17:45 GMT+02:00 Minh Nguyen :

> Currently, this is at odds with the wiki and longstanding practice, which
> stipulates that a shop=chemist *may not* fill prescriptions.




there's also the "dispensing" flag, of which I have always thought it would
mean "prescription drugs"

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] shop=chemist as "Drugstore" for Walgreens, CVS, Rite Aid, etc.

[Minh Nguyen]

Recently, iD was changed so that shop=chemist is labeled as "Drugstore" 
for American English users (and continues to be labeled "Chemist" for 
British English users). [1] An American mapping a Walgreens, CVS, or 
Rite Aid who searches for "drugs" will see the following choices, in order:


* Drugstore (shop=chemist, marked with a shopping cart icon)
* Pharmacy (amenity=pharmacy, marked with a pill bottle)

Meanwhile, searching for "pharmacy" -- a synonym of "drugstore" in 
American English -- produces only the amenity=pharmacy preset.


The rationale is that amenity=pharmacy should be used only for pharmacy 
counters (which can be found at both drugstores and inside 
supermarkets), while shop=chemist should be used for full-service 
drugstores that *may* contain pharmacy counters. Currently, this is at 
odds with the wiki and longstanding practice, which stipulates that a 
shop=chemist *may not* fill prescriptions.


This change to iD came about due to a discussion in the Name Suggestion 
Index project, which is the component in iD that suggests tags when you 
fill in a commonly used name. [2] I happened to notice the change 
because it caused Transifex to prompt me to update iD's Vietnamese 
localization. To my knowledge, there has been no discussion on the 
mailing lists or formal proposal on the wiki, though the iD maintainer 
intends to edit the wiki to match iD's interpretation. iD is the only 
software that has made this change.


On the one hand, I've come around to liking the proposal, because it 
makes it easier for data consumers to distinguish between pharmacy 
counters and full-fledged drugstores. On the other hand, I think it's 
problematic because an American mapping a Walgreens or CVS could 
potentially tag a "drugstore" and be unaware that they'd need to 
separately map the pharmacy counter in order to indicate that 
prescriptions may be filled on-site.


Currently, amenity=pharmacy is far and away more common than 
shop=chemist in the U.S. as a way to tag drugstores. Certainly anyone 
retagging amenity=pharmacy to shop=chemist would be careful to add an 
additional amenity=pharmacy POI where the pharmacy counter would be. 
(For a typical Walgreens or CVS, it'd be next to the drive-through 
canopy.) However, I have little faith that the average iD user would 
know to do the same, since the word "drugstore", like "pharmacy", 
implies the sale of prescription drugs.


I've hashed out many of these points in [3], but I think the discussion 
needs to involve the wider OSM community now. There's little chance of 
data consumers and other editors updating their logic if the change is 
only discussed in the iD project.


[1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3201
[2] https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/issues/30
[3] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3213

--
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a scrap yard?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-05 4:55 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout :

> We had a discussion here a few months ago about how best to tag what we
> call in American English a junkyard. The result was a tag combination that
> works for those yards that take wrecked automobiles and then sell parts
> from them. This is a form of recycling I suppose but such a facility is not
> typically thought of as a recycling center.
>
> amenity=scrapyard
> shop=car_parts
> second_hand=only
>


we too had a discussion in talk-it[1] and the proposed tag was
landuse=industrial
amenity=auto_wrecker

I find these tags also quite good to add:
shop=car_parts
second_hand=only

[1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-it/2016-June/053353.html

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tag for a scrap yard?

[ael]

On Tue, Jul 05, 2016 at 08:11:04AM +1000, Warin wrote:
> On 7/5/2016 7:50 AM, Tom Pfeifer wrote:
> > > On Mon, Jul 04, 2016 at 08:26:23PM +0100, Dan S wrote:
> > >> 2016-07-04 20:20 GMT+01:00 ael :
> > 
> > apparently the start of the thread is on the GB-talk list.

Yes. Sorry. I thought I had quoted enough to show the original
question.

> > > > rather widely is amenity=recycling + recycling=scrap_metal:
> > 
> > ael wrote on 2016/07/04 22:25:
> > 
> > > The wiki seemed to suggest that was for containers - recycling points
> > > where stuff was left. Which didn't seem to fit.
> > 
> > I cannot find such suggestion. amenity=recycling is distinguished
> > into either recycling_type=centre or recycling_type=container,
> > and you can specify the material among others:
> > recycling:scrap_metal=yes/no

I guess that I somehow overlooked recyling_type=centre.

> > > I used amenity=scrap_yard
> > 
> > Only used 4 times, should be changed as above.
> > 
> > > and scrap-yard=metal
> > 
> > When the related value has an underscore you should not introduce a
> > hyphen here.

Yes: that was just a typo.

> > amenity=recycling   164677x
> > recycling_type=centre 8200x
> > recycling:scrap_metal 9000x

I suppose that is the best option, although it seems more natural to
use recyling_type=business for the place I was tagging.
> 
> Possibly the original feature is a 'bone yard' (american english), 'junk
> yard', wrecking yard' etc. These are where old scraped cars go to have parts
> removed and sold on for use on cars. As such they 'recycle' every thing they
> can off the car - windows, seats, engines, wheels, etc etc ... As such they
> recycle more than just 'metal'

In this case, they don't break vehicles which is a bit more specialised,
I think.

Thanks for the various replies. My scrap_yard tags were only meant to be
temporary self-documenting place holders.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] number of bollards in a line

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-05 13:22 GMT+02:00 Paul Johnson :

> I wonder if we should define a special key such as bollard_count=12 (used
>> 3x)
>> or keep it generic as count=12 (used 1000x, 121x in combination with
>> barrier)?
>>
>
> Usually if it matters that much, I map the individual bollards.
>


mapping them individually can have its merit (e.g. to express rhythm =
regular but not equal distances, of if they aren't perfectly in line), but
could often be seen as overkill. Of course you can do it, but if you don't
want to do it, a bollard_count would come in handy. I'd prefer this to
count:bollard (in analogy to step_count).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] number of bollards in a line

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 5:58 AM, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> When I map a line of bollards as a way (barrier=bollard), it could
> be useful to give the number of them. Similar to step_count on
> highway=steps.
>
> I wonder if we should define a special key such as bollard_count=12 (used
> 3x)
> or keep it generic as count=12 (used 1000x, 121x in combination with
> barrier)?
>

Usually if it matters that much, I map the individual bollards.
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Re: [Tagging] number of bollards in a line

[Kieron Thwaites]

> I wonder if we should define a special key such as bollard_count=12 (used
> 3x)
> or keep it generic as count=12 (used 1000x, 121x in combination with
> barrier)?

As much as I'm in favour of the generic count=*, there could be cases
where it is not clear what count=* is referring to.  On the other
hand, I believe that defining a special key such as bollard_count=*
could be overkill.

Perhaps count:bollard=* would be the best of both worlds?

--K

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[Tagging] number of bollards in a line

[Tom Pfeifer]

When I map a line of bollards as a way (barrier=bollard), it could
be useful to give the number of them. Similar to step_count on highway=steps.

I wonder if we should define a special key such as bollard_count=12 (used 3x)
or keep it generic as count=12 (used 1000x, 121x in combination with barrier)?

tom

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Martin Koppenhoefer wrote on 2016/07/05 12:17:

Maybe we have a more profound problem here with the "social facility" tag, and 
it comes out,

> it wasn't the best of all ideas to have "social facility" as a generic 
category? In the end,
> if this covers all kind of different stuff (soup kitchen, nursing home etc.)

I don't see this problem. I'd keep amenity=social_facility for everything that 
has some
organised social support, from permanent or mobile nurses, supervision, to 
street worker;
in contrast to other things with restrictions.

So Greg's minimum_age condos are not different from fenced residential 
communities with
minimum_income=1 M p.a.

And I'm quite happy that Carto renders social_facility as it does, since I can 
always
hover the question mark over the facility to get the details, or build an 
overlay if
I need to visualise all soup kitchens in the city in blue and the nursing homes 
in green.

tom

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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-07-05 11:48 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> Hm, maybe that is not so visible as a facility, but certainly lots of
> fitter
> seniors join to share a flat, with an individual room for each of them,
> privately organised among them.
>



indeed, I don't believe this would qualify in any way as a "social
facility", nor would probably most of those that Greg defined above: "
senior_age_restricted_housing: no special staff compared to any other
apartment, but you have to be >= 55 or 65 and not have children living
there."

Maybe we have a more profound problem here with the "social facility" tag,
and it comes out, it wasn't the best of all ideas to have "social facility"
as a generic category? In the end, if this covers all kind of different
stuff (soup kitchen, nursing home etc.) in one main tag, this main tag
isn't very useful to anyone. On the other hand, we would likely have to put
some residential facilities for elderly under this tag, but others clearly
not. Maybe amenity=retirement_home and nursing_home was somehow better than
this mashup? These are generic terms and could have been subtagged for
special variants (like group homes), although they also bear some problems
(e.g. the fact that most/many residential facilities for elderly offer
both, nursing care and not, within the same facility).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Greg Troxel wrote on 2016/07/05 01:08:


So this comes down to being difficutl world wide. I agree with the
notion of the definitions and not getting hung up on the terms.


Yes, but as said earlier, there is a continuum of possibilities, in
particular if you interleave the US definitions you gave with other
schemes worldwide.

Also the same facility might provide more than one scheme. Finally,
the mapper needs to be able to distinguish them, otherwise they would
be misclassified frequently.

So my suggestion is to limit the number of categories, as some details
can be expressed with further tags.


Overall, I'd suggest

  senior_age_restricted_housing: no special staff compared to any other
  apartment, but you have to be >= 55 or 65 and not have children living
  there.


should not be under social_facility.
Give it a building=apartment + min_age=55


  indepdendent_living: apartment with meals and housekeeping, but staff
  do not need a medical-type license.  No help with pills or showering.
  People expected to manage their own issues.

  assisted_living: as above, but help is available e.g. to hand you your
  pills from a locked box on schedule and call the children[...]


would prefer the two types above subsumed under assisted_living,
while the level of assistance can be indicated with further tags:
assisted:housekeeping=yes
assisted:medication=no


  nursing_home: hospital like.  24-hour nursing staff.  usually 2 beds to
  a room.


Yes, that was agreed previously. The number of beds might vary, often
depending on the price you pay.


  continuing_care_community: used to tag the campus of a place that has
  at least nursing_home and one other of the above.


might be difficult to be understand. Maybe the campus gets just a plain
amenity=social_facility, and the different buildings are then tagged
individually.


  group_home: house typically in a regular neighborhood with several
  people with some kind of issues, but who don't fit the pattern above.
  Staff present, but counselors more than medical.  Almost never has a
  sign.


As we can give it a capacity=5 vs capacity=755, we can keep old dormitory style
retirement facilities in this category.


   hospice: facility that is sort of like nursing_home, but private rooms
   and much nicer trying to seem home-like.  People go there when they
   are dying and have decided to stop treatment and just manage pain. [...]


Typical for palliative medicine, yes, +1

tom


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Re: [Tagging] amenity=retirement_home and social facility

[Tom Pfeifer]

Greg Troxel wrote on 2016/07/02 01:08:


Almost no one moves to a "group home" because of age-related mobility or
cognitive issues.


Hm, maybe that is not so visible as a facility, but certainly lots of fitter
seniors join to share a flat, with an individual room for each of them,
privately organised among them.

I also read about experiments with Alzheimer patients to supervise a small
group of them in a regular apartment in contrast to a nursing home.


I no longer see any facility called retirement home.  I used to, and I
think it was something that was a little bit like AL but less care,
before the state set standards of what could be provided and what
training was needed for people to do it.


There seems to be similar standardisation in Germany, where a nursing cost
insurance is now mandatory, so also how that money is spent is being
regulated.

Colin Smale wrote on 2016/07/02 01:36:

> Why not try taking a more objective approach with the tagging? I mean less
> emphasis on what it is called (which clearly varies widely and is subject to
> discussion) and more emphasis on what it is, which should be less 
controversial
> and give a quicker convergence.

+1

tom


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