Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Kevin Kenny 
Be as pedantic as you please. I'll be happy to tag a cenotaph or three if a
consensus ever emerges.


On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 7:34 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 20-Sep-16 06:30 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> Il giorno 20 set 2016, alle ore 08:59, Steve Doerr <
> doerr.step...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
> And the word actually *means* 'empty tomb': 'ancient Greek *κενοτάϕιον* <
> *κενός* empty [...] + *τάϕος* tomb' (Oxford English Dictionary).
>
>
>
> +1, I have added the tomb=cenotaph tag to
> the proposal: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tombs#
> Subtagging_types
>
>
> the tag
> tomb=cenotaph
>
> would be like
> building=no_building
>
> makes little sense.
>
> Cenotaphs are memorials/monuments. Not the place of burial therefore not a
> tomb.
> A small sample of past use in OSM are;
> Node The Cenotaph (59598355) -  London, UK
> Way The Cenotaph (99953212)' San Antonio, USA
> Node (1290835360) - Cenotaph - Montreal, Canada
> Node: Cenotaph (3687638609) Hiroshima, Japan
> Node: Cenotaph (2434280368) Saskatchewan, Canada
> Node: Penang Cenotaph (1726781335) Malaysia
> Node: Cenotaph (4011033735) Belfast, Ireland
>
>
>
> The meaning of the Greek root ... and the meaning of the present English
> are different as happens over time and with translations between languages
> (Greek-Latin-English).
>
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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Warin 

On 20-Sep-16 06:30 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

Il giorno 20 set 2016, alle ore 08:59, Steve Doerr 
> ha scritto:


And the word actually *means* 'empty tomb': 'ancient Greek 
/κενοτάϕιον/ < /κενός/ empty [...] + /τάϕος/ tomb' (Oxford English 
Dictionary).



+1, I have added the tomb=cenotaph tag to
the proposal: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tombs#Subtagging_types


the tag
tomb=cenotaph

would be like
building=no_building

makes little sense.

Cenotaphs are memorials/monuments. Not the place of burial therefore not 
a tomb.

A small sample of past use in OSM are;
Node The Cenotaph (59598355) -  London, UK
Way The Cenotaph (99953212)' San Antonio, USA
Node (1290835360) - Cenotaph - Montreal, Canada
Node: Cenotaph (3687638609) Hiroshima, Japan
Node: Cenotaph (2434280368) Saskatchewan, Canada
Node: Penang Cenotaph (1726781335) Malaysia
Node: Cenotaph (4011033735) Belfast, Ireland



The meaning of the Greek root ... and the meaning of the present English 
are different as happens over time and with translations between 
languages (Greek-Latin-English).
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Re: [Tagging] Routing in Liège (consulting Michelin)

2016-09-20 Thread André Pirard 
On 2016-09-17 20:46, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
> André Pirard wrote:
>> Last point is what source:???=Michelin ??? to use to prevent a 
>> StijnRR or like arbitrarily destructing well thought out tagging 
>> without notifying the author. I suggest
>> source:highway=https://viamichelin.be/web/Cartes-plans 2016 2016.
> No, you must not copy from copyrighted maps, which includes Michelin's.
>
> Please confirm that you have not added, and are not going to add, any data
> (including classification judgements) from Michelin maps, otherwise I guess
> we'll have to ask the Data Working Group to suspend your OSM account and
> revert your edits.
>
> Richard
Of course not, I did not use that Michelin map as a source and I won't.
It would be stupid because it's coarse compared to other allowed sources.
And everything of it and much more is in OSM already.
Even a road classification does not interestingly exist in it (1).
This Subject: and suggested source= are inappropriate and misleading.

The only thing I did is to notice that Michelin runs the N3 in red from
Ans to La Dérivation, compare it to my turbopass map, discover that OSM
has a gap in this primary and post the URLs of a few streets containing
ref=N3 and highway=secondary.  You have read that, haven't you, I posted
their URLs in this thread.
Now if I hope that you won't say that this is copying from Michelin and
that you would send to prison someone who would correct those mistakes
and that you would put the mistakes back in OSM.

I have been *extremely* shocked by what you said after my attempt to help.

Beside mapping the boundaries of South Belgium and other major works, I
have done excellent mapping, I very often correct a huge number of
houses and roads, almost all, misplaced by 3-5-+ meters, I help mappers,
I even help JOSM and others to improve their software for a better OSM.
Revert my edits? 
Remove the Walloon borders?  Remove the other many things? Remove my
humanitarian tagging?  Put houses and roads back to the wrong place?  etc...
Very rarely a word of thanks, except Marc in this thread, close friends,
some developers and the humanitarians.
Always reproaches and destruction.
Even the DWG vandals messed up the marvelous job of the boundaries of
Wallonia.

That total lack of consideration for what I'm doing made me decide to
stop contributing to OSM.

André.


(1) On that map, Michelin unhelpfully draws the equivalents of both
OSM's secondary and tertiary in yellow.
Tertiary can't be distinguished from secondary.
The only thing that can be done with it is to build a route to compare
with an OSM and so to have hints to modify the  OSM route.
This said, I tried on Michelin the route Beaufays-Oupeye that I know well.
Definitely, their route #2 27 km via E25 is much better than their
recommended #1 26 km via E40.
And within #2, Bd de Douai -> Poincaré is better than quai des Ardennes,
it is even the signposted route!
So, Michelin is not even always a good adviser!

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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Tue, Sep 20, 2016 at 2:59 AM, Steve Doerr 
wrote:

> And the word actually *means* 'empty tomb': 'ancient Greek *κενοτάϕιον* <
> *κενός* empty [...] + *τάϕος* tomb' (Oxford English Dictionary).
>
>
>
 I became familiar with the word because of my family's history. Two of my
great-grandfathers were lost at sea. They perished in separate calamities;
the life of a fisherman is a hard one, and often a short one as well. My
step-grandfather never returned from a hunting trip in the Catskill
Mountains. All three have their cenotaphs in a cemetery near New York City.

To the best of my knowledge, I was the first person in my family to climb
the mountain where my step-grandfather disappeared, over seventy years
later. It is not a cenotaph, but I left a memorial in the climbers' log
book at the summit.  https://flic.kr/p/oYmftb
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Re: [Tagging] Use of oneway=yes on waterways

2016-09-20 Thread Aun Johnsen 
In the rare cases of waterways flow in both directions due to tidal forces or 
other phenomenon, it is highly unlikely these are one way, and if so, most 
likely conditional.

Besides conditional regulations of navigation is often (though not always) 
regulated by a signal station or a traffic control authority
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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> Il giorno 20 set 2016, alle ore 08:59, Steve Doerr  
> ha scritto:
> 
> And the word actually *means* 'empty tomb': 'ancient Greek κενοτάϕιον < κενός 
> empty [...] + τάϕος tomb' (Oxford English Dictionary).


+1, I have added the tomb=cenotaph tag to
the proposal: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/tombs#Subtagging_types

cheers,
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Re: [Tagging] Use of oneway=yes on waterways

2016-09-20 Thread David Marchal 
Note that, although exceptional, some waterways can flow both ways, according 
to tidal, floods, if a connected estavelle is absorbing or discharging water... 
Even if it is unlikely, this tag could be of some use to highlight the fact 
that the waterway is not subject to such stream variations.

From: letopographe...@gmail.com
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2016 14:06:23 +0200
Subject: [Tagging] Use of oneway=yes on waterways


  


  
  
Hi

According to the waterway=stream wiki page
  (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dstream):


  If a flow exists, the direction of the way must be
  downstream (i.e. the way direction follows the flow)


As of today there is a very small percentage of streams (17593
  ways according to taginfo, 0.23%) with oneway=yes.

Is there any undocumented purpose? Is it ok and safe to delete
  oneway=yes tags for streams?



The same question can apply to drains, ditches, canals...

Yours,





-- 
LeTopographeFou
  


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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Steve Doerr 

On 19/09/2016 23:36, Kevin Kenny wrote:


In what way is it not a cenotaph? It is clearly a structural monument. 
It is in memory of a deceased person. Said deceased person is not 
entombed there, although his remains are thought to be in an unmarked 
grave somewhere nearby. It looks like a tomb, but nobody is entombed 
in it.





And the word actually *means* 'empty tomb': 'ancient Greek /κενοτάϕιον/ 
< /κενός/ empty [...] + /τάϕος/ tomb' (Oxford English Dictionary).


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Cenotaph WAS Re: Tagging memorial sites

2016-09-20 Thread Warin 

Sorry .. reread your words..


While the 'monument' is alleged to have the remains under them .. then 
the monument is sited on an (alleged) 'tomb'. As such the monument is 
part of the 'tomb'.


Even the title of the photo says 'tomb'.

I would not take it as a good example of a 'cenotaph'.
Possibly
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7f/AlamoMemorial-0727.jpg/400px-AlamoMemorial-0727.jpg 
would be better?


Note that is not a tomb.

  On 20-Sep-16 03:43 PM, Warin wrote:

Read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site

That says his remains are in said tomb... as shown in your linked photo.
The only reference I can see to a 'cenotaph' are your words ... where 
do you get it from?


On 20-Sep-16 08:36 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:


In what way is it not a cenotaph? It is clearly a structural 
monument. It is in memory of a deceased person. Said deceased person 
is not entombed there, although his remains are thought to be in an 
unmarked grave somewhere nearby. It looks like a tomb, but nobody is 
entombed in it.



On Sep 19, 2016 6:31 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 20-Sep-16 12:51 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

tomb=cenotaph sounds perfect, if unusual.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steuben_Memorial_State_Historic_Site#/media/File:Baron_von_Steuben_Monumental_Tomb_Jul_10.jpg


is the cenotaph that I was mapping when the question arose.
Baron von Steuben's remains are in an unmarked grave somewhere
nearby. The 'memorial tomb' was erected, contrary to his express
wish to be buried in an unmarked grave, decades after his death.
It is claimed, but by no means certain, that the memorial covers
his remains. He is most certainly not entombed within it.



Not a 'cenotaph'. _Cenotaphs are not tombs_!

A definition of cenotaph is;
a) a structural monument in memory to a deceased person whose
body is elsewhere (so not a tomb)
b) a municipal, civic, or national memorial to those killed in war.

On the LPI data base (for Australia, New South Wales) there are
13 listed 'cenotaphs'.



On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 8:32 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
> wrote:


2016-09-19 13:17 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer
>:

there's only one memorial:type=cenotaph



btw., those cenotaphs wikipedia has as examples in osm would
rather be historic=monument than memorial I think:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cenotaph


Cheers,
Martin

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