Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

2016-09-29 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would change "There's even strong dialect in England"to 'There are many
> dialects in England'!

Quite so.

But they do have a core standard that is to be understood by all at
least when written.
( albeit less rigorously enforced than L'Academie Francaise, moreso
than any defense of American orthodoxy.)

And as the center to which at least all Commonwealth Nations look for
linguistic authority, not at all a bad choice for a global project,
even if confusing to us Yanks.
OTOH, now that as many or more non-native learners of English will
be learning Hollywood American rather than British English, it may
perhaps do them a disservice, to have a global project hew to Brit
nomenclature, as they may be less aware of the odd gap than the native
speakers of USA and Commonwealth. ( Good luck to them finding a token
machine and timetable in a British subway ! )

But that ship has sailed, this taxonomy is mostly in EN_UK for good or ill.

In a controlled vocabulary such as this (Taxonomy, Ontology, whatever
buzzword you like), the word means what it's defined as *here* not
what it means in whatever natural language it was lifted out of
(looted, purloined, liberated) for this technical purpose.
 OSM:"roundabout" etc may (usually) be more like
EN_UK:"roundabout" than EN_US:"roundabout" etc, but it's a mistake to
think all the diverse shadings of a EN_UK word (see Camb.Dict or
Ox.Dict for how many they catalog! ) would apply in a Taxonomic usage.

( US and UK words should provide a clue, there should be
search-optimization in the wiki of course, so that one can find the
accepted synonym and it's definition and limitations in Taxonomy
, to wit ,
   boot : similar to USA term "trunk(car)", not "athletic shoe";
   for USA term "boot" see "parking enforcement" (or overshoes...)
  )

I haven't found it hard to find things in Wiki; I think the hard part
is realizing one may need to look at the wiki before picking a likely
looking word from a JOSM etc pulldown.

OTOH, mapping a point amenity and guessing wrong is better than not
mapping it at all, provided we don't get ego-invested in editwars when
someone improves the coding to conformant.

As to whether Dunkin Donuts and Starbucks are a Cafe or Fast Food, i
remember when Dunkin baked on site, but they don't any more. They
sacked Mr Time to Bake the Donuts.  :motorcycle:  :shark:  Starbucks
has real baristas, who do orders one at a time and don't wait till
(work register), but DD has clerks who push a button on a vending
machine which I could push as well as they. I think i see which is
Fast Food. Sad, since DD (and HoJo) both started a few miles south of
me. The original DD is still in operation ...

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

2016-09-29 Thread Warin 

On 30-Sep-16 08:18 AM, Bill Ricker wrote:

On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Kevin Kenny
 wrote:

What procedure do you recommend for those of us who don't have expatriate
Britons on call?

Officially we should read the OSM wiki.

( We can also watch BBC America and/or cultivate expat Brit friends. :-)


Oxford Dictionary (or Cambridge Dictionary) could be other references.





We Americans are, as you are well aware, entirely ignorant
of cultures other than our own. (And would the thing be called by the same
word in Glasgow or Cardiff as it would in London?)

Yeah, there's a reason the language is called English not British :-)
There's even strong dialect in England even before you get to Scots.
But they have a received standard that we can pretend is understood
throughout the English speaking world.


I would change "There's even strong dialect in England"to 'There are many 
dialects in England'!

There was a BBC TV program called 'The Story Of English' (7 parts). With a 
follow up book ISBN 0-563-20247-5

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p008drr6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FtSUPAM-uA

The TV program has subtitles .. at least the version I saw had ...
while the language spoken might be a form of English some need the subtitles, 
or at least a rewind for a repeat!
The book maybe available in your local library?






To misquote Shaw (who, as an Irishman, could presumably take a neutral point
of view [yeah, right!]), the US and the UK are two nations divided by their
common language.

Or even better, misquoting Churchill misquoting Shaw to us in the provinces !


"The Queen's English? Of course I can speak the Queens English. I was born
in Queens."

That's a lovely contrast of quotes ! :-)



John Witherspoon on American English

"I have heard in this country, in the Senate, at the bar, and from the pulpit, 
and see daily in dissertations from the press,
errors in grammar, improprieties and vulgarisms which hardly any person of the same 
class in point of rank and literature would have fallen into in Great Britain."

Thomas Jefferson -
"There are so many differences between us and England, of soil, climate, 
culture, productions, laws, religion and government,
that we must be left far behind the march of circumstances, were we to hold 
ourselves rigorously to their standard...
Judicious neology can alone give strength and copiousness to language, and enable it 
to be the vehicle of new ideas."


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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

2016-09-29 Thread Greg Troxel 

Kevin Kenny  writes:

> On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> I agree with the "what does it feel like" part, but not "what the locals
>> call it".  One of the central issues in tagging in OSM is that words are
>> used for a specific meaning (usually UK usage, as we know) and the point
>> is to have a consistent labeling of things around the world, even if
>> local language is different.  So that leads to "what would someone from
>> the UK, but who had lived in the area for a year, call it?"
>
> What procedure do you recommend for those of us who don't have expatriate
> Britons on call? We Americans are, as you are well aware, entirely ignorant
> of cultures other than our own. (And would the thing be called by the same
> word in Glasgow or Cardiff as it would in London?)

A fair point, but I think the big issue is to be aware that the word in
the tag has some meaning and try to figure that out and follow it,
rather than saying "amenity=foo must mean what I happen to think of as
foo".

Besides the issue of words like flat and boot being totally different, I
think the really serious mismatch in tagging due to american vs english
customs is about the primary/secondary/tertiary labels.  I never really
understood that but after driving in Scotland for a few weeks have some
appreciation for how minor a C road is.   This makes the
pub/cafe/etc. distinction seem very minor.




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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

2016-09-29 Thread Bill Ricker 
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Kevin Kenny
 wrote:
> What procedure do you recommend for those of us who don't have expatriate
> Britons on call?

Officially we should read the OSM wiki.

( We can also watch BBC America and/or cultivate expat Brit friends. :-)

> We Americans are, as you are well aware, entirely ignorant
> of cultures other than our own. (And would the thing be called by the same
> word in Glasgow or Cardiff as it would in London?)

Yeah, there's a reason the language is called English not British :-)
There's even strong dialect in England even before you get to Scots.
But they have a received standard that we can pretend is understood
throughout the English speaking world.


> To misquote Shaw (who, as an Irishman, could presumably take a neutral point
> of view [yeah, right!]), the US and the UK are two nations divided by their
> common language.

Or even better, misquoting Churchill misquoting Shaw to us in the provinces !

> "The Queen's English? Of course I can speak the Queens English. I was born
> in Queens."

That's a lovely contrast of quotes ! :-)


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1...@gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux

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Re: [Tagging] health_facility:type vs. health_facility_type

2016-09-29 Thread Janko Mihelić 
She did it manually, it's described in the next diary entry:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jinalfoflia/diary/37655

I see now that group messaging is a planned feature, so all we have is
manual for now.

Janko

On Thu, 29 Sep 2016, 13:04 Janko Mihelić,  wrote:

> I got a message like that, and it was about a mechanical edit described
> here:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jinalfoflia/diary/37601
>
> but it says nothing about the messages. I got a message "after" the
> mechanical edit was done, which is maybe a bit controversial, but that's ok
> if you ask me. It was an obvious error (amenity=picnic_site instead of
> tourism=picnic_site). I asked the user jinalfoflia if she can tell me how
> she sent all those messages, and I'll report back if I get an answer.
>
> Janko
>
> čet, 29. ruj 2016. u 11:40 Jean-Marc Liotier  napisao je:
>
>> On 2016-09-28 13:56, Janko Mihelić wrote:
>>
>> Maybe send an automatic message to those 66 users to see if they agree
>> with the edit, and if most agree, change them all
>>
>> Good idea... I don't know how to send a message to such a group of users
>> - is there functionality provided for that ?
>>
>>
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - building=carport

2016-09-29 Thread Joachim 
The tag building=carport is used for is used for one carport building.
The carport might provide more than one parking space.

Rationale:
A carport is distinctive enough from building=garage and building=roof
so that an own tag should be used. The plural (like building=garages)
is not defined since all wide carports I could find can be classified
as one structure. The key building=* is used since a carport is a type
of building=roof.

Add amenity=parking/motorcycle_parking/bicycle_parking +
building=carports to mark the parking facility. If there are multiple
carports at a parking site add the tags to an area surrounding them.
These tags are usually not necessary for private parking.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/carport_buildings

Regards Joachim (Jojo4u)

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Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Bar vs Pub vs Restaurant in the US?

2016-09-29 Thread Kevin Kenny 
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

> I agree with the "what does it feel like" part, but not "what the locals
> call it".  One of the central issues in tagging in OSM is that words are
> used for a specific meaning (usually UK usage, as we know) and the point
> is to have a consistent labeling of things around the world, even if
> local language is different.  So that leads to "what would someone from
> the UK, but who had lived in the area for a year, call it?"
>

What procedure do you recommend for those of us who don't have expatriate
Britons on call? We Americans are, as you are well aware, entirely ignorant
of cultures other than our own. (And would the thing be called by the same
word in Glasgow or Cardiff as it would in London?)

To misquote Shaw (who, as an Irishman, could presumably take a neutral
point of view [yeah, right!]), the US and the UK are two nations divided by
their common language.

"The Queen's English? Of course I can speak the Queens English. I was born
in Queens."
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Piste:type=connection

2016-09-29 Thread Janko Mihelić 
I agree ski tagging needs something like this. I have some
questions/suggestions:
1. Who is to be routed through these connections? Only downhill skiers, or
nordic skiers, sleigh riders, snowmobiles also? I think we could route all
snow transport over it.
2. Are they implicitly oneway? They are two way more often than not, but I
think we should stick to them being oneway, just to match the
piste:type=downhill. If they are not oneway, add oneway=no.
3. Do we call those forest tracks that connect two mountains
piste:type=connection? They exist only for connecting pistes, but I'm not
sure if you wanted to include those in piste:type=connection. Additionally,
those are not necessarily meant for all types of snow transport. Or maybe
they are, I don't know. They are all pretty easy to ride on, so maybe even
nordic skiers could be routed through them.

Janko


uto, 27. ruj 2016. u 12:57 Helge Fahrnberger  napisao
je:

>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Piste:type%3Dconnection
>
> Ways that connect ski lifts with each other, mainly for routing purposes
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Re: [Tagging] health_facility:type vs. health_facility_type

2016-09-29 Thread Janko Mihelić 
I got a message like that, and it was about a mechanical edit described
here:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/jinalfoflia/diary/37601

but it says nothing about the messages. I got a message "after" the
mechanical edit was done, which is maybe a bit controversial, but that's ok
if you ask me. It was an obvious error (amenity=picnic_site instead of
tourism=picnic_site). I asked the user jinalfoflia if she can tell me how
she sent all those messages, and I'll report back if I get an answer.

Janko

čet, 29. ruj 2016. u 11:40 Jean-Marc Liotier  napisao je:

> On 2016-09-28 13:56, Janko Mihelić wrote:
>
> Maybe send an automatic message to those 66 users to see if they agree
> with the edit, and if most agree, change them all
>
> Good idea... I don't know how to send a message to such a group of users -
> is there functionality provided for that ?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] health_facility:type vs. health_facility_type

2016-09-29 Thread Jean-Marc Liotier 
On 2016-09-28 13:56, Janko Mihelić wrote:

> Maybe send an automatic message to those 66 users to see if they agree with 
> the edit, and if most agree, change them all

Good idea... I don't know how to send a message to such a group of users
- is there functionality provided for that ?___
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