Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[Warin]

On 16-Feb-17 01:00 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:


The RMS voltage of an alternating-current electrical source is the 
direct-current voltage that would supply the same power into a 
resistive load. That is to say, imagine you have an AC power source 
operating a heating element, and a DC power source operating an 
identical heating element. The DC connection powers the heating 
element continuously. The AC signal starts at zero volts, increases to 
a peak, then decreases back to zero. Then it does that again, to a 
negative voltage (the electrons flow in the opposite direction). The 
heating element doesn't care which direction the electrons are 
flowing; both directions produce the same amount of heat.  If the net 
heat production from the AC-powered heating element is the same as the 
net heat production from the DC-powered element, then the Root Mean 
Square voltage of the AC power source is the same as the constant DC 
voltage from the DC power source.




Off topic warning.
Johns definition above is correct ..
These are fundamental to any electrical person.
The AC voltage can be stated in various ways .. where the statement of 
voltage does not include rms, peak or peak to peak most people would 
take the statement as being rms.


From a simple maths viewpoint:

The relationship of RMS (route mean squared), peak and peak to peak are 
very well defined mathematically for a pure sine wave;


peak to peak = peak x 2
RMS = peak x 0.707 (or the reciprocal of the square route of two, if you 
need more digits)


Thus 220 v RMS will be 311 v peak and 622 v peak to peak.

220 v RMS single phase voltage system resolves into a 3 phase system of  
381 v RMS, as the 220 v is from one line to neutral, where as the 3 
phase voltage is from one line to the other.


Again there is a simple mathematical vector relationship between the 
single phase and the 3 phase voltages.




On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe"
> wrote:

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>:


In Australia;
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.


Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry :

https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1



2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases
each) :
From public power grid :

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1


To traction substation :

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1




For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for
large commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase
(220/380, 220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others,
all 60 Hz). Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220
volts) or three-wire systems (220/440 volts, though electricity
meters show "240 volts", which is within the tolerance of 220
volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years
at an international level. Now they agree that their present
tolerances encompass an agreed range ... that encompasses all
those voltages.


Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, 
while RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?



No. See the above.

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[John F. Eldredge]

The RMS voltage of an alternating-current electrical source is the 
direct-current voltage that would supply the same power into a resistive 
load. That is to say, imagine you have an AC power source operating a 
heating element, and a DC power source operating an identical heating 
element. The DC connection powers the heating element continuously. The AC 
signal starts at zero volts, increases to a peak, then decreases back to 
zero. Then it does that again, to a negative voltage (the electrons flow in 
the opposite direction). The heating element doesn't care which direction 
the electrons are flowing; both directions produce the same amount of heat. 
If the net heat production from the AC-powered heating element is the same 
as the net heat production from the DC-powered element, then the Root Mean 
Square voltage of the AC power source is the same as the constant DC 
voltage from the DC power source.




On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe" 
wrote:

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:



In Australia;
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.



Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry : https://www.google.fr/maps/@45
.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4
!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :

From public power grid : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla

ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.
2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-
I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0
x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1

To traction substation : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,
15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwS
RQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2a
e4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1



For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380,
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz).
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which
is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of
the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances encompass
an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.


Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while
RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?

Meters seem to have varying ways on showing the rated voltages the meter
measures, that they may only show RMS voltage or peak-to-peak voltage, or
both. On countries using single-phase or split-phase distribution (most of
the Americas, and some Asian countries), either the RMS or peak-to-peak are
shown on the meter's rated voltage, while on countries primarily using
three-phase distribution (usually 230/400 volts), the meter shows only RMS
voltage for an ordinary single-phase customer, but on others requiring
three-phase for other applications, the meter shows both RMS and
peak-to-peak.

And on my mapping work on Philippine power networks, with the RMS voltage
being 220 volts, a single-phase transformer may have a single-phase
(line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) secondary. For a
single-phase transformer with a single phase secondary, common used by
provincial electric cooperatives, I use the RMS voltage of 220 as default,
but for a split-phase one, usually in areas served by private utilities, it
defaults to 440 volts (peak-to-peak), though the meter used for measuring
is rated by the RMS voltage of 220 volts (240 volts on the meter's labels,
fortunately, it is within the tolerance of 220-240 volts)

And on voltage tolerances, 220 volts is within tolerance of the 220-240
volt range, so does 110 or 120 volts being within the tolerance of the
100-127 volt range.

), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the province
usually served by 

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[François Lacombe]

2017-02-15 9:33 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> Not certain what elaboration you need? Isolation ...is simply turning a
> line off, for maintenance/repair.
> Switches on poles tend to be manual (mechanical). Switches in substations
> and stations tend to be automatic.
>

Ok I agree
I wasn't sure of what you meant with isolation.

Actually, even thoses isolation mechanical switches can be automated as
said (with radio, landlines or whatever)

All the best


François
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[Jherome Miguel]

On Feb 15, 2017 4:42 PM, "Warin" <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe" 
wrote:

Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

>
> In Australia;
> Heavy industry gets 3 phases.
>

Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry : https://www.google.fr/maps/@45
.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4
!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
>From public power grid : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.
2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-
I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0
x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1

To traction substation : https://www.google.fr/maps/pla
ce/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,
15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwS
RQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2a
e4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1



For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380,
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz).
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", which
is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one phase wire of
the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances encompass
an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.


Possibly you think the peak voltage is the line-line voltage, right, while
RMS voltage is line-neutral voltage. Is that correct?

Meters seem to have varying ways on showing the rated voltages the meter
measures, that they may only show RMS voltage or peak-to-peak voltage, or
both. On countries using single-phase or split-phase distribution (most of
the Americas, and some Asian countries), either the RMS or peak-to-peak are
shown on the meter's rated voltage, while on countries primarily using
three-phase distribution (usually 230/400 volts), the meter shows only RMS
voltage for an ordinary single-phase customer, but on others requiring
three-phase for other applications, the meter shows both RMS and
peak-to-peak.

And on my mapping work on Philippine power networks, with the RMS voltage
being 220 volts, a single-phase transformer may have a single-phase
(line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line) secondary. For a
single-phase transformer with a single phase secondary, common used by
provincial electric cooperatives, I use the RMS voltage of 220 as default,
but for a split-phase one, usually in areas served by private utilities, it
defaults to 440 volts (peak-to-peak), though the meter used for measuring
is rated by the RMS voltage of 220 volts (240 volts on the meter's labels,
fortunately, it is within the tolerance of 220-240 volts)

And on voltage tolerances, 220 volts is within tolerance of the 220-240
volt range, so does 110 or 120 volts being within the tolerance of the
100-127 volt range.

), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the province
usually served by electric cooperatives, but the three-wire system is used
on areas served by major private electric utilities (Meralco, Visayas
Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light and Power, etc.)

Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro Manila transit systems
only), is rather DC only, fed from the three-phase distribution systems,
transformed to the traction voltage, then rectified to DC. No AC traction
systems still exists in the Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the
future on new lines or mainline electrification.




> A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large .. but it is
> unusual and a safety concern, no single room should have more than one
> phase.
> Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop has a
> requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.
>
+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while current usage
is single phase + neutral pole.

I 

[Tagging] Places for rent for personal events

[Severin Menard]

Hi,

It seems indeed to fit perfectly, thanks! Unfortunately, it is not listed
neither in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:amenity nor in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features and shows up only at 20th
place if "events" if searched on the wiki (with event it is beyond the
first page of answers).
I am wondering how many tags may be hidden this way.

Sincerely,

Severin


Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2017 07:21:20 +0900
> From: John Willis 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Places for rent for personal events
> Message-ID: <66a7d71a-c128-4384-8104-63bc2fb79...@mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>
> > On Feb 15, 2017, at 4:56 AM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Devents_venue
>
> +1
>
> I think that is the tag created just for that situation.
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Missing oneway:bicycle=no

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-15 10:27 GMT+01:00 Volker Schmidt :

> I do read the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway
> differently.
> I read it to mean that the "opposite" refers to the opposite *direction*
> in which bicycles can travel on roads marked as oneway for vehicles
> (oneway=yes)
>


yes, you're right. Actually cycleway=opposite_lane leaves a bit of
ambiguity whether there is also a cyclelane for the direction of the
oneway, that's why the wiki suggests to use cycleway:left and
cycleway:right instead.

Somehow the approach of tagging lanes or tracks on the main highway comes
to limits anyway.

E.g. here:
https://www.google.it/maps/@52.5442916,13.3897153,3a,75y,250.94h,82.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSMhQ_UavSBhrcCv05sNO4Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

this sign is bicycle=no
but there is a cycleway on both sides (initially at least):
https://www.google.it/maps/place/Berlin,+Deutschland/@52.5446112,13.3908026,3a,60y,222.45h,79.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seDtJTH_4VZ2yZpw9lGS-jA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x47a84e373f035901:0x42120465b5e3b70!8m2!3d52.5200066!4d13.404954!6m1!1e1

and on the southern side there is a cycle (lane or track) for the whole
length:
https://www.google.it/maps/@52.5433703,13.386435,3a,65.1y,93.29h,70.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snF9guRz78uWjB9yic1wmdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

Likely you'd need to tag cycleway:bicycle:right=yes or something like this,
but chances are good people will not get this right, while it's a nobrainer
map the cycleway and access correctly as a distinct osm way.

There is no explicit cycleway signage (except the bicycle=no on one side of
the road), but it looks like cycleways (this is the other end of the road):
https://www.google.it/maps/@52.5422296,13.3828561,3a,75y,58.68h,86.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK_RQOPu8XXzM1dKPazeLNQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

So one interpretation could be: oneway only for bicycles and only for part
of the road length, otherwise cyclelane and cycletrack (depending where you
look at it).

In OSM we don't have any cycleinfrastructure in this road yet.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Missing oneway:bicycle=no

[Marc Gemis]

This is not what is mentioned on other pages:

(part of my mail to the Belgian mailing list)

oneway:bicycle=no  + cycleway=track/lane is recommended, see e.g. M1
on https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle

opposite_lane should only be used when there is a lane in the opposite
direction of the one_way and there is no lane in the direction of the
oneway. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:cycleway%3Dopposite_lane
Or as indicated in the above M1, when you tag forward/backward
separately. It is not enough to indicate a oneway street with cycle
lanes in both directions.
I have seen it even used when there are no lanes, i.e. the cyclists
have to drive on the main road.


m

On Wed, Feb 15, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> @Martin
>
> On 14 February 2017 at 23:40, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>>
>> cycleway=opposite* indicates that the cycleway is on the "other" side,
>> e.g. left of the street in a right side traffic region. This doesn't require
>> a oneway situation and missing oneway tags are not necessarily an error
>
>
> I do read the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway
> differently.
> I read it to mean that the "opposite" refers to the opposite direction in
> which bicycles can travel on roads marked as oneway for vehicles
> (oneway=yes)
>
> Volker
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>

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Re: [Tagging] Missing oneway:bicycle=no

[Volker Schmidt]

@Martin

On 14 February 2017 at 23:40, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> cycleway=opposite* indicates that the cycleway is on the "other" side,
> e.g. left of the street in a right side traffic region. This doesn't
> require a oneway situation and missing oneway tags are not necessarily an
> error
>

I do read the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway
differently.
I read it to mean that the "opposite" refers to the opposite *direction* in
which bicycles can travel on roads marked as oneway for vehicles
(oneway=yes)

Volker
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Power pole extension

[Warin]

On 15-Feb-17 05:52 PM, Jherome Miguel wrote:



On Feb 13, 2017 4:19 PM, "François Lacombe" > wrote:


Hi Warin,

2017-02-13 8:42 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com
>:


In Australia;
Heavy industry gets 3 phases.


Same in Europe, 2-phases or 3-phases depends on needs.
Here 3-phases for heavy industry :

https://www.google.fr/maps/@45.2719628,6.3749132,3a,48.9y,219.64h,93.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdoIRusd2UEOaiNkxbR5tUw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1



2-phases for train traction (2 separate circuits of 2 phases each) :
From public power grid :

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.830987,4.5832895,3a,27.2y,18.11h,110.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shRm5LaCrnCyD-I8kNBVv0Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1


To traction substation :

https://www.google.fr/maps/place/73300+Saint-Jean-de-Maurienne/@43.8414547,4.5586151,3a,15y,304.69h,91.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2SoaNSBHWlYnq6u8vvwSRQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x478a25581ea5e5cf:0x408ab2ae4baab70!8m2!3d45.275403!4d6.344886!6m1!1e1




For the Philippines, two or three phases for the primary are for large 
commercial customers, but the output, it is three-phase (220/380, 
220/380/440, 440/760, 660/1150, 880/1530, and others, all 60 Hz). 
Households use single-phase, either two-wire (220 volts) or three-wire 
systems (220/440 volts, though electricity meters show "240 volts", 
which is within the tolerance of 220 volts, the peak voltage of one 
phase wire of the system


Errr most places this is the RMS voltage, not the peak voltage.
The 240 220 230 volts conflicts have been discussed for many years at an 
international level. Now they agree that their present tolerances 
encompass an agreed range ... that encompasses all those voltages.


), depending on location. The two-wire system is common on the 
province usually served by electric cooperatives, but the three-wire 
system is used on areas served by major private electric utilities 
(Meralco, Visayas Electric Company/VECO, Davao Light, Cotabato Light 
and Power, etc.)


Traction power in the Philippines (for the Metro Manila transit 
systems only), is rather DC only, fed from the three-phase 
distribution systems, transformed to the traction voltage, then 
rectified to DC. No AC traction systems still exists in the 
Philippines, but perhaps, may be used in the future on new lines or 
mainline electrification.



A few houses may get 2 phases if their load is very large ..
but it is unusual and a safety concern, no single room should
have more than one phase.
Even fewer houses get 3 phase .. usually where the workshop
has a requirement for a 3 phase motor/furnace.

+1 same here, 3-phases fed households tend to disapear while
current usage is single phase + neutral pole.

I concur. Single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase 
(line-neutral-line) is the primary household distribution systems, 
while a household customer on an area primarily using single-phase, 
but requiring three-phase needs a separate transformer, at least the 
line has the phases required, otherwise, the customer would require 
the nearby distribution line to have the additional wires and the 
dedicated transformer, or use a phase converter.


Single-phase supplies by households may be derived from a three-phase 
line, but a single-phase line may do. The single-phase transformers 
may have one or two primaries (though one bushing is connected to 
ground instead on another phase wire and serves as a surge arrestor, 
like the case of transformers used to provide 220 volt single-phase 
power in most provinces of the Philippines), but the secondaries may 
be single-phase (line-neutral) or split-phase (line-neutral-line). 
Single-phase (line-neutral) may use a transformer with one or two 
bushings (the latter has the second bushing being a surge arrestor, 
being connected to ground instead on another primary), but for 
split-phase (line-neutral-line), the transformer may have one or two 
primary bushings, but on the case of two