Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Frederik Ramm]

Kevin,

On 03/07/2017 02:06 AM, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> There are reasonable use cases for wanting to take a timezone name and
> get back a multipolygon

Question is, does (the core database of) OSM have to fulfil these use cases!

> or to get a list of name and multipolygon for
> all the timezones (or all the timezones on a given map). That's hard to
> do unless there are relations for the timezones. Not impossible, we
> could query administrative boundaries for the tag, but that's likely to
> be SLOW since the tag will at best be in hstore and not indexed.
> Grouping disjoint items, such as "all the administrative regions in a
> time zone" seems tailor-made for relations.

In my opinion, no. We've been there - people (ab)using relations like
some kind of bookmark, to make data retrieval easier (e.g. a relation
"all cycleways in XY city" just because it was slow/difficult to
retrieve them otherwise).

You would typically use a relation to group things when they can be in
more group than one, and therefore tagging the membership on the
individual object becomes cumbersome - cycle, bus, or hiking routes are
a prime example, since the same street/way can be part of several of them.

Not so with time zones, I should hope; a region can only be associated
with exactly one (not 0, not more than one) time zone. Hence adding a
time zone tag to the object is the easiest way to maintain the data and
to ensure that you don't accidentally have two!

I agree it might make things a little more difficult for the consumer
but an overpass query can quickly find every boundary relation tagged
with a certain time zone, and I'm sure sooner or later specialist sites
will take the data and prepare daily updated json files or whatever that
one can overlay on a map.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[David Bannon]

On 07/03/17 04:55, Thilo Haug wrote:

..

I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.

Thilo, perhaps thats the underlying problem here ?  You read the rules 
on the wiki, complied with what you understood and now, I guess feel as 
if you are being treated a bit unfairly ?   However, I doubt that any 
proposal has succeeded where the proposer has not been a member of this 
list, been actively reading the messages at least and probably been 
contributing as well.


The truth is that not all the "rules" are on the wiki, there is a huge 
quantity of community knowledge, not actual rules, and much of it is 
accessible via this list. We have a large number of very experienced  
database, rendering, mapping, cultural experts who live here (no, I'm 
not one!). They comment on a proposal and help a proposal comply with 
the OSM culture. Their "rules" are not written down as the document 
would run to 100's pages and we'd never agree on the content. Written 
rules have to cover every possible situation. Too hard.


This list is very welcoming, always open to new ideas and not, in any 
way, locked into particular policies. Within the list you will find 
widely differing views but always respect for others.


To solve your problem Thilo, you could do a number of things. Firstly, 
tags in OSM do not need be approved. I, personally don't recommend 
unapproved tags but lots will disagree with me. Alternatively, its 
relatively easy to put your own data, as an overlay, onto an OSM map. 
Keep you data privately or put it into one of the public POI databases. 
But really, I strongly recommend you keep trying as you are, refine and 
improve your proposal with the help of the mailing list, understand why 
OSM "rules" are what they are. You can then make a good tag, one that 
can be used around the world and rendered on lots of maps.


By the way, I would not recommend the digest approach, I found it harder 
to assign time to. Digest users, when replying, often seem to forget to 
change the message title and are not always taken seriously :-)


David




Am 06.03.2017 um 18:09 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:


2017-03-06 17:46 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert >:


Hi Martin and others,

Am 2017-03-06 um 17:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM
mailing lists
> messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small
regional ML
> and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam
arrives, I can
> imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a
lot of work
> (and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to
do it daily,
> because after some time many messages will seem out of context.

I have changed the wording of the wiki page Proposal_Process today to
stress the necessity to subscribe the Tagging mailing list. Feel
free to
modify/revert it if you don't like it.



As you name me in person: I was not referring to the wording in the 
wiki but the wording of the mailing list autoresponder message in 
case someone not subscribed sends a message (and from the reply might 
get to the impression that it will pass, which it in fact almost 
never does for any of the OSM lists).


Cheers,
Martin


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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[wille]

I agree with deleting the timezone relations.

2017-03-05 21:30 GMT-03:00 Frederik Ramm :

> Hi,
>
>I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
>
> There are currently 80 relations in OSM tagged as boundary=timezone
> using between them over 10,000 ways.
>
> I think that mapping these time zones as geometries has several issues:
>
> 1. It introduces yet another un-observable object type into OSM. When I
> asked about the source of the data, one person quipped "well you can
> observe it on a local clock", but the people adding time zone boundaries
> don't seem to actually do that - they copy the information from somewhere.
>
> 2. It is for the most part unnecessary noise; almost all time zone
> boundaries run along administrative boundaries, so you could just add a
> timezone tag to the administrative entity instead of mapping a whole
> separate geometry.
>
> 3. It complicates editing; anyone touching one of the aforementioned
> 10,000 ways (which are for the most part also used by admin boundaries)
> will be confronted with the time zone relation and will have to decide
> what to do with it.
>
> 4. It creates very large polygons that may be difficult to edit.
>
> Here's a list of time zones currently mapped in OSM (with relation ID)
>
> 3563652 Московское время
> 3563678 Екатеринбургское время
> 3563726 Красноярское время
> 3563727 Омское время
> 3563885 Иркутское время
> 3563886 Якутское время
> 3563937 Владивостокское время
> 4297465 Самарское время
> 6426325 Cherry County - Chicago TZ part
> 6426796 Idaho Denver TZ part
> 6426797 Idaho Los Angeles TZ part
> 6428675 Alaska - Timezone America/Adak
> 6428690 Alaska - Timezone America/Anchorage
> 6428730 Alaska - Timezone America/Yakutat
> 6428802 Alaska - Timezone America/Juneau
> 6428803 Alaska - Timezone America/Sitka
> 6428944 Canada - Timezone America/Pangnirtung
> 6430296 Malaysia - Kuala Lumpur Timezone
> 6430370 Kiribati - Kiritimati timezone
> 6430371 Kiribati - Tarava timezone
> 6430484 Greenland - timezone America/Danmarkshavn area
> 6430503 Greenland - timezone America/Thule area
> 6430514 Greenland - timezone America/GodThab area
> 6430515 Greenland - timezone America/Scoresbysund area
> 6430658 Хандыгское время
> 6440860 America/Tijuana Timezone
> 6440942 America/Merida Timezone
> 6440955 America/Cancun Timezone
> 6440975 America/Bahia_Banderas Timezone
> 6441066 America/Mazatlan Timezone
> 6442501 America/Mexico_City Timezone
> 6442514 America/Santa_Isabel Timezone
> 6442531 America/Hermosillo Timezone
> 6442686 America/Matamoros Timezone
> 6442687 America/Ojinaga Timezone
> 6442693 America/Chihuahua Timezone
> 6442726 America/Monterrey Timezone
> 6442820 America/Edmonton Timezone part
> 6442821 America/Regina Timezone
> 6442822 America/Winnipeg Timezone part
> 6445625 America/Eirunepe Timezone
> 6445626 America/Manaus Timezone
> 6445682 America/Belem Timezone
> 6445683 America/Santarem Timezone
> 6445860 Asia/Dushanbe Timezone part
> 6446092 Arizona - America/Phoenix Timezone
> 6446108 America/Atikokan Timezone
> 6446109 America/Winnipeg Timezone
> 6446170 America/Cambridge_Bay Timezone
> 6446189 America/Rankin_Inlet Timezone
> 6446190 America/Resolute Timezone
> 6451096 Atlantic/Azores Timezone
> 6451097 Atlantic/Madeira Timezone
> 6451098 Europe/Lisbon Timezone
> 6451458 America/Coral_Harbour Timezone
> 6451459 America/Iqaluit Timezone
> 6483867 Ontario - America/Toronto Timezone
> 6483978 America/Creston Timezone
> 6483979 America/Dawson_Creek Timezone
> 6483980 America/Edmonton Timezone
> 6483981 America/Vancouver Timezone
> 6485969 Asia/Sakhalin Timezone
> 6491030 America/Argentina/Buenos_Aires Timezone
> 6491031 America/Argentina/Catamarca Timezone
> 6491032 America/Argentina/Rio_Gallegos Timezone
> 6491033 America/Argentina/Salta Timezone
> 6491034 America/Argentina/Ushuaia Timezone
> 6491133 Atlantic/Canary Timezone
> 6491134 Europe/Madrid Timezone
> 6491494 America/Chicago Timezone
> 6496417 America/New_York Timezone
> 6496587 America/Indiana/Indianapolis Timezone
> 6496665 America/Boise Timezone
> 6496694 America/Los_Angeles Timezone
> 6498476 America/Menominee Timezone
> 6498563 America/Detroit Timezone
> 6498592 America/Nipigon Timezone
> 6498593 America/Thunder_Bay Timezone
> 6594626 Магаданское время
> 6594635 Камчатское время
>
> And here's them in a map:
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz.jpg
>
> Now when you overlay the administrative boundaries on levels 2 and 4,
> only very few lines remain:
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz4.jpg
>
> And when you go up to admin level 6:
>
> http://www.remote.org/frederik/tmp/tz6.jpg
>
> Assuming that these boundaries are actually correct, the only places in
> which time zone boundaries don't follow admin boundaries are:
>
> * In South America, the Western boundary of the Manaus timezone and the
> Eastern boundary of the Santarem timezone;
>
> * In North America, the line between the Hermosillo and Santa Isabel
> timezones, 

Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Mike Thompson]

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Kevin Kenny 
wrote:

>
>
> It seems that having a 'group' relation for all the administrative regions
> that use a given timezone would be useful. The timezone data itself, of
> course, belongs separate, but the group relation would, to my thinking, be
> more useful than merely tagging each administrative region with the
> timezone it keeps.
>
+1

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Kevin Kenny]

The timezone database does not map the geographic extents of timezones.
Rather, it lists them by name and gives the rules for what time they keep.
The geography is explicitly out of scope, so the tzdata maintainers really
shouldn't have anything to say about OSM mapping time zones!

There are reasonable use cases for wanting to take a timezone name and get
back a multipolygon, or to get a list of name and multipolygon for all the
timezones (or all the timezones on a given map). That's hard to do unless
there are relations for the timezones. Not impossible, we could query
administrative boundaries for the tag, but that's likely to be SLOW since
the tag will at best be in hstore and not indexed. Grouping disjoint items,
such as "all the administrative regions in a time zone" seems tailor-made
for relations.

It seems that having a 'group' relation for all the administrative regions
that use a given timezone would be useful. The timezone data itself, of
course, belongs separate, but the group relation would, to my thinking, be
more useful than merely tagging each administrative region with the
timezone it keeps.

As someone who imports tzdata into a third-party system on a very regular
basis, I can verify that while the rules for the timezones undergo constant
churn - there are 20-30 releases of the database in a typical year - the
boundaries change hardly at all, except for splits when one administrative
region goes one way and another region goes another. In those cases, we
already very likely have the administrative boundaries, and merely need to
move bits from one relation to another.

The mapping between tzdata names and geography really isn't available
anywhere else, and it's surely something that I'd use if OSM had it.



On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 6:30 PM, Aun Johnsen  wrote:

> >
> > On 3/6/17 11:21 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> >> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>   I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time
> zones.
> >>
> >>
> >>What do you think?
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
> >> tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal
> >> pain to keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little
> >> as a few hours notice in some cases.
> >>
> > i agree. this a perfect example of something that belongs in its own
> > database or
> > shape file, available to be overlaid on the map when it's wanted.
> >
> > richard
> >
> > --
> > rwe...@averillpark.net
> > Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
> > OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
> > Java - Web Applications - Search
> Actually, timezones are to great extent already mapped, you only have to
> find a better way to extract the data, instead of creating new relations.
> There might still be administrative relations that doesn’t have timezone
> tag set making the timezone data incomplete, but this is not a reason to
> create new relations, but rather add the missing data in existing relations.
>
>
>
>
> Aun Johnsen
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Paul Johnson]

As the node lies right now looks to be what I would call the accurate
location of the split.  Lane placement's a hot mess though... placement=*
and careful alignment of the through way would help a lot.  I'd probably
move node 3236281590 to it's split...

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 5:20 PM, Johan C  wrote:

> The motorway_junction node of the A4 towards A555, which was moved
> westwards by 100 meters.
>
> 2017-03-07 0:02 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :
>
>> Which node?
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Johan C  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway exit in a,
>>> IMHO, uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for OSM to have multipiple
>>> solutions for the same problem I would like to have your opinion on this
>>> one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608
>>>
>>> Kind regards, Johan
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Johan C]

370544 is the one.

2017-03-07 0:53 GMT+01:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> 10 nodes on that changeset - 6 were deleted .. one is a new node (as
> indicated by its version number, leaving a choice of 3
>
>
>- 3236281590, v3 
>- 3236281562, v2 
>- Kreuz Köln-Süd (370544, v13)
>
>
> So the question is which node ... the answer should contain the number of
> one of the above nodes.
>
>
> On 07-Mar-17 10:20 AM, Johan C wrote:
>
> The motorway_junction node of the A4 towards A555, which was moved
> westwards by 100 meters.
>
> 2017-03-07 0:02 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :
>
>> Which node?
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Johan C  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway exit in a,
>>> IMHO, uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for OSM to have multipiple
>>> solutions for the same problem I would like to have your opinion on this
>>> one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608
>>>
>>> Kind regards, Johan
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Warin]

10 nodes on that changeset - 6 were deleted .. one is a new node (as 
indicated by its version number, leaving a choice of 3


 * 3236281590, v3 
 * 3236281562, v2 
 * Kreuz Köln-Süd (370544, v13) 

So the question is which node ... the answer should contain the number 
of one of the above nodes.



On 07-Mar-17 10:20 AM, Johan C wrote:
The motorway_junction node of the A4 towards A555, which was moved 
westwards by 100 meters.


2017-03-07 0:02 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson >:


Which node?

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Johan C > wrote:

Hi,

I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway
exit in a, IMHO, uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for
OSM to have multipiple solutions for the same problem I would
like to have your opinion on this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608


Kind regards, Johan

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Aun Johnsen]

> 
> On 3/6/17 11:21 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm" > > wrote:
>> 
>>Hi,
>> 
>>   I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
>> 
>> 
>>What do you think?
>> 
>> 
>> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
>> tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal
>> pain to keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little
>> as a few hours notice in some cases.
>> 
> i agree. this a perfect example of something that belongs in its own
> database or
> shape file, available to be overlaid on the map when it's wanted.
> 
> richard
> 
> -- 
> rwe...@averillpark.net
> Averill Park Networking - GIS & IT Consulting
> OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux
> Java - Web Applications - Search
Actually, timezones are to great extent already mapped, you only have to find a 
better way to extract the data, instead of creating new relations. There might 
still be administrative relations that doesn’t have timezone tag set making the 
timezone data incomplete, but this is not a reason to create new relations, but 
rather add the missing data in existing relations.




Aun Johnsen


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Re: [Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Johan C]

The motorway_junction node of the A4 towards A555, which was moved
westwards by 100 meters.

2017-03-07 0:02 GMT+01:00 Paul Johnson :

> Which node?
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Johan C  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway exit in a,
>> IMHO, uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for OSM to have multipiple
>> solutions for the same problem I would like to have your opinion on this
>> one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608
>>
>> Kind regards, Johan
>>
>> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Paul Johnson]

Which node?

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Johan C  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway exit in a,
> IMHO, uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for OSM to have multipiple
> solutions for the same problem I would like to have your opinion on this
> one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608
>
> Kind regards, Johan
>
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[Tagging] Positioning motorway exits

[Johan C]

Hi,

I'm in a discussion with a user who positions the motorway exit in a, IMHO,
uncommon way. Though it's not uncommon for OSM to have multipiple solutions
for the same problem I would like to have your opinion on this one:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/41264608

Kind regards, Johan
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[L. David Baron]

On Monday 2017-03-06 14:15 -0500, Richard Welty wrote:
> On 3/6/17 11:21 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> >I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
> >
> >
> > What do you think?
> >
> >
> > I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
> > tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal
> > pain to keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little
> > as a few hours notice in some cases.
> >
> i agree. this a perfect example of something that belongs in its own
> database or
> shape file, available to be overlaid on the map when it's wanted.

For what it's worth, data of this sort are maintained at
http://efele.net/maps/tz/ , although the shapefiles there (based on
VMAP0) are somewhat inferior to OSM data, since a number of the
national boundaries (e.g., using the Sudanese claim for the
Egypt/Sudan border) or coastlines (e.g., Aral Sea) are quite out of
date, in ways that are noticeable when overlaying the data.

Apparently the
http://efele.net/maps/tz/world/tz_world_ingredients.zip file there
has information that could be used to rebuild the shapefiles on top
of other sources of data, but I've never attempted to do this.

-David

-- 
턞   L. David Baron http://dbaron.org/   턂
턢   Mozilla  https://www.mozilla.org/   턂
 Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
 What I was walling in or walling out,
 And to whom I was like to give offense.
   - Robert Frost, Mending Wall (1914)


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

I f I have the choice just to get daily / weekly updates,
that wouldn't even be a problem.

Unless I wonder why a mail program shouldn't be able
to filter messages by Topic.


Am 06.03.2017 um 22:14 schrieb ksg:
>> Am 06.03.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Thilo Haug :
>>
>>
>> I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
>> means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.
>> I assume others will possibly act similar.
>>
> Due to the (anachronistic) nature of a mailing list a subscribed member will 
> get all messages regardless of the topic.
>
> Regards
> geow
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Mobil: +49 177 3185856


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[ksg]

> Am 06.03.2017 um 18:55 schrieb Thilo Haug :
> 
> 
> I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
> means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.
> I assume others will possibly act similar.
> 

Due to the (anachronistic) nature of a mailing list a subscribed member will 
get all messages regardless of the topic.

Regards
geow
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Richard Welty]

On 3/6/17 11:21 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  > wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
> tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal
> pain to keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little
> as a few hours notice in some cases.
>
i agree. this a perfect example of something that belongs in its own
database or
shape file, available to be overlaid on the map when it's wanted.

richard

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-03-06 17:51, Paul Johnson wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
> On 2017-03-06 17:21, Paul Johnson wrote: 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones. 
> 
> What do you think? 
> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the tzdata 
> maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal pain to keep 
> track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little as a few hours 
> notice in some cases.

Do you mean territories switch to another timezone 100+ times a year, or
that the details of the timezone (DST dates etc) change 100+ times a
year? If it's the latter, it won't be a problem for OSM if we only store
the TZ name. Looking at the archives of the tz-announce mailing list,
there are only 1-2 actual changes per month which would affect OSM. I
think there are more changes to admin boundaries than to timezones. 

No, the maddening number of changes unrelated to DST.  Computerphile
rather accurately describes the situation [1].  I only have to deal with
it tertiarily in my line of work and it's still caused a lot of problems
for us as a company. 

Interesting video! Nothing new there for me though. The number of times
a territory changes to a new time zone is very limited. His example of
Libya where DST was cancelled with basically no notice does not put
Libya into a new TZ - it changes the definition of the TZ. So this would
not require any changes to OSM. Cyprus on the other hand would require
maintenance in OSM (last year its TZ split so TRNC now follows mainland
Turkey and can therefore be an hour different to the rest of the
island). But changes like these are "relatively rare" and well within
the capabilities of OSM and its mappers to maintain with minimal effort.
All we have in OSM is the name of the timezone, e.g. Europe/London. 

>> In what way would the tzdata maintainers need to be "on board"?
> 
> Considering that group most closely tracks this, it would be best if we 
> worked very closely together on getting this data right.  A lack of close 
> collaboration would rather render having this data in OpenStreetMap outdated 
> very quickly.

There is a mailing list for updates to tzdata -
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/tz-announce 

//colin 

Links:
--
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5wpm-gesOY___
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Thilo Haug]

I agree with Martin,
thanks anyway for your work in the wiki.

Is there someone we could contact to change the mail text ?
(To avoid this happens again to the next)

I (accidentally) unsubscribed because of the "spam" coming in,
means I didn't get just messages regarding the topic.
I assume others will possibly act similar.


Am 06.03.2017 um 18:09 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
>
> 2017-03-06 17:46 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert  >:
>
> Hi Martin and others,
>
> Am 2017-03-06 um 17:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> > yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM
> mailing lists
> > messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small
> regional ML
> > and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam
> arrives, I can
> > imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a
> lot of work
> > (and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to
> do it daily,
> > because after some time many messages will seem out of context.
>
> I have changed the wording of the wiki page Proposal_Process today to
> stress the necessity to subscribe the Tagging mailing list. Feel
> free to
> modify/revert it if you don't like it.
>
>
>
> As you name me in person: I was not referring to the wording in the
> wiki but the wording of the mailing list autoresponder message in case
> someone not subscribed sends a message (and from the reply might get
> to the impression that it will pass, which it in fact almost never
> does for any of the OSM lists).
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Mobil: +49 177 3185856

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-06 17:46 GMT+01:00 Michael Reichert :

> Hi Martin and others,
>
> Am 2017-03-06 um 17:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> > yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM mailing lists
> > messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small regional
> ML
> > and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam arrives, I
> can
> > imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a lot of
> work
> > (and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to do it
> daily,
> > because after some time many messages will seem out of context.
>
> I have changed the wording of the wiki page Proposal_Process today to
> stress the necessity to subscribe the Tagging mailing list. Feel free to
> modify/revert it if you don't like it.
>


As you name me in person: I was not referring to the wording in the wiki
but the wording of the mailing list autoresponder message in case someone
not subscribed sends a message (and from the reply might get to the
impression that it will pass, which it in fact almost never does for any of
the OSM lists).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 2:11 PM, "Christian Müller"  wrote:

> > Gesendet: Sonntag, 05. März 2017 um 20:22 Uhr
> > Von: "Peter Barth" 
> > An: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" <
> tagging@openstreetmap.org>
> > Betreff: Re: [Tagging] how to map simple buildings
> >
> >
> > you're probably more than 10 years late with that and there had
> > been many to suggest great new database schemata, great to
> > evaluate tagging methods and what not. The success of OSM is (in
> > part) based on the concept of "the simplest thing that could
> > possibly work".
>
> Despite your nagging, it does not hurt to /re/search and reevaluate
> design decissions made. Loosing the ability to question them, being
> rigid with what you got is OSMs ticket to irrelevance. In part it
> has also been flexibility of the community that made some of OSM
> successful (not everything about it is).
>

Case in point, the lane tagging scheme, which I've started to include
bicycle lanes and generally encourage others do as well, as leaving this
information out has a negative usability impact on data consumers and the
people using those data consumers where there are multiple bicycle lanes,
bicycle lanes in unusual formations, or pretty much any configuration where
there isn't one bicycle lane curb adjacent.  This is becoming more common
as configurations like DC's Penn Avenue, Portland's Hawthorne Bridge
approaches, buffered bicycle tracks flowing two ways on the same street
open only to one way vehicles, etc become more commonplace.
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 10:42 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2017-03-06 17:21, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
>
>
>
> What do you think?
>
>
> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
> tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal pain to
> keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little as a few
> hours notice in some cases.
>
>
> Do you mean territories switch to another timezone 100+ times a year, or
> that the details of the timezone (DST dates etc) change 100+ times a year?
> If it's the latter, it won't be a problem for OSM if we only store the TZ
> name. Looking at the archives of the tz-announce mailing list, there are
> only 1-2 actual changes per month which would affect OSM. I think there are
> more changes to admin boundaries than to timezones.
>

No, the maddening number of changes unrelated to DST.  Computerphile rather
accurately describes the situation
.  I only have to deal with it
tertiarily in my line of work and it's still caused a lot of problems for
us as a company.


> In what way would the tzdata maintainers need to be "on board"?
>

Considering that group most closely tracks this, it would be best if we
worked very closely together on getting this data right.  A lack of close
collaboration would rather render having this data in OpenStreetMap
outdated very quickly.
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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Martin and others,

Am 2017-03-06 um 17:37 schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer:
> yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM mailing lists
> messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small regional ML
> and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam arrives, I can
> imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a lot of work
> (and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to do it daily,
> because after some time many messages will seem out of context.

I have changed the wording of the wiki page Proposal_Process today to
stress the necessity to subscribe the Tagging mailing list. Feel free to
modify/revert it if you don't like it.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposal_process=history

Best regards

Michael


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ausgenommen)
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Colin Smale]

On 2017-03-06 17:21, Paul Johnson wrote:

> On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.
> 
>> What do you think?
> 
> I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the tzdata 
> maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal pain to keep 
> track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little as a few hours 
> notice in some cases.

Do you mean territories switch to another timezone 100+ times a year, or
that the details of the timezone (DST dates etc) change 100+ times a
year? If it's the latter, it won't be a problem for OSM if we only store
the TZ name. Looking at the archives of the tz-announce mailing list,
there are only 1-2 actual changes per month which would affect OSM. I
think there are more changes to admin boundaries than to timezones. 

In what way would the tzdata maintainers need to be "on board"? 

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Re: [Tagging] Fwd: Feature Proposal - Voting - tag "motorcycle friendly" for accomodations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-03-06 0:14 GMT+01:00 Thilo Haug :

> That's how it looks like,
> but the email should also inform about this possibility.
>
> There should be either a text that it's necessary to resend it when
> subscribed to the list
> or a possibility (link) to check whether it meanwhile arrived.
>

yes, that wording is unfortunate, because in most/many OSM mailing lists
messages never get approved. I am myself admin of a very small regional ML
and from time to time there are periods where a lot of spam arrives, I can
imagine checking held back messages in the big lists would be a lot of work
(and mostly consist in rejecting spam). You would also have to do it daily,
because after some time many messages will seem out of context.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] EuroVelo tagging

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Mar 5, 2017 at 12:55 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> As EV routes are not managed as single entities, every route is split in
> pieces managed on a country basis. I know the situation in Italy, as I am
> involved in regional and national cycle routes here. EV routes are handled
> by BicItalia which is part of FIAB, the "Italian Federation of Friends of
> the Bicycle". All EV routes all have also BicItalia numbering (BicItalia
> routes are ncn), but it is not necessarily the case that the Italian part
> of a given EV corresponds one-to-one to a BicItalia route. So it makes
> sense to tag the individual EV routes in one country as one icn and to tie
> these icn routes in the different countries together by a super relation.
> This means that any BI route that is also part of an EV is part of at least
> to bicycle route relations (it typically is also part of lower level routes.
>

Sounds like a similar situation to the US in general.  Many US bicycle
routes are ncn but also have an older rcn (state) bicycle route on them
that was developed either in parallel or prior to the federal one.  The US
tends to favor multiplexing routes almost to an extreme.  I'm aware of one
street that is two different kinds of local bike route, a state bike route
in development, a national bike route in development, a state highway and a
historic federal highway, all numbered 66...
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping time zones as geometries (relations)

[Paul Johnson]

On Mar 5, 2017 18:30, "Frederik Ramm"  wrote:

Hi,

   I would like to start a discussion about the mapping of time zones.


What do you think?


I'm generally opposed to mapping timezones in OpenStreetMap unless the
tzdata maintainers are 100% on board.  Since timezones are a royal pain to
keep track of, often changing 100+ times a year, on as little as a few
hours notice in some cases.
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