Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 21. Apr 2017, at 18:31, John Sturdy  wrote:
> 
> but it's not for irrigation (spreading water over fields) and neither "drain" 
> nor "ditch" are words I'd naturally use (as English words) for that --- I'd 
> call it an irrigation channel.



yes, drain is about putting the water away, while irrigation is about 
distributing water/bringing it to the fields, so literally the opposite. It is 
a bad word for an unspecific artificial waterway because it bears the very 
specific function in it.

I agree here with Christoph, I'm also using these tags without looking too 
close at the actual meaning of the word in English, but we surely are missing 
an opportunity to describe well the size, nature and function of waterways in 
general.

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Christoph Hormann 
On Friday 21 April 2017, John Sturdy wrote:
>
> A leat is to take the water to a specific place, with the emphasis
> more on the destination than on where it's getting the water from,
> and as it's for a water supply, the water in it will generally be
> reasonably clean (or at least not as muddy as ditch-water).

The idea of using service=* for this kind of functional characterization 
(see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dcanal) is that 
for the mapper the purpose of an artificial waterway might not be 
easily observable locally so the basic tagging as a waterway is 
possible without knowing that.

But if you define waterway=leat as any smaller artificial waterway with 
the primary purpose being carrying water to somewhere as opposed to 
carrying water away from somewhere that is sufficiently well defined 
and universally understandable to avoid larger misinterpretation.  So 
why not.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread John Sturdy 
In terms of the tags as defined on the wiki, the most relevant bit is
probably: "For a smaller artificial waterways used for irrigation consider
waterway =drain
 or waterway
=ditch
." but it's not
for irrigation (spreading water over fields) and neither "drain" nor
"ditch" are words I'd naturally use (as English words) for that --- I'd
call it an irrigation channel.

In terms of its function, a leat is effectively an open-topped pipeline for
water, taking it from one or more water sources to a specific place (such
as a water purification works for a settlement).

__John

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Friday 21 April 2017, Chris Hill wrote:
> > A leat is a very specific thing. It is certainly not a canal, but
> > neither is it a ditch nor drain. I would favour waterway=leat. That
> > describes, unambiguously, exactly what it is.
>
> I guess from your perspective it is but please try to define the meaning
> of waterway=leat for non-native English speakers from a completely
> different part of the world in a way that clearly tells them when to
> use this tag and when to use a different one.
>
> For native English speakers this is often much more difficult - you try
> to synchronize your use of waterway=canal/ditch/drain with your
> understanding of these terms in your language - and inevitably fail
> with that attempt.  I just use these tags as defined on the wiki or as
> they are used by other mappers and don't concern myself with the
> inherent meaning of the value outside OSM.
>
> --
> Christoph Hormann
> http://www.imagico.de/
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread John Sturdy 
To me (native British-English speaker) "ditch" carries connotations of
being dirty (muddy) and being used either for drainage (to get water out of
somewhere, the destination not being important) or as a barrier.  So it's
more like a drain.

A leat is to take the water to a specific place, with the emphasis more on
the destination than on where it's getting the water from, and as it's for
a water supply, the water in it will generally be reasonably clean (or at
least not as muddy as ditch-water).

In terms of size, and of being made artificially, it is quite like a ditch,
but I think it's likelier to have an artificial lining e.g. concrete.

I'm inclined to think it doesn't really fit any of the existing waterway
tag values, and that I should make a proposal for it.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:42 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 21. Apr 2017, at 13:26, Chris Hill  wrote:
> >
> > A leat is a very specific thing. It is certainly not a canal, but
> neither is it a ditch nor drain.
>
>
> I would have thought it was a kind of ditch from the description in WP but
> if it isn't I agree that waterway=leat seems suitable to describe
> accurately the feature
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] water control valves/gates

2017-04-21 Thread Volker Schmidt 
Sluice gate is correct for open waterways. Valve is the equivalent if the
water flows in pipeline.

On 21 Apr 2017 14:43, "François Lacombe"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I wasn't aware of this word too and it's a nice find :)
>
> Sluice gates won't be used elsewhere than on waterways (even underground
> pipelines or penstocks) but discharge points can be found on a any
> pressurized pipeline system (hydraulic, pneumatic and so on)
> flow_control should be freely used on waterway=*, pipeline=* or even
> man_made structures (dam)
>
> Furthermore, you can find sluice valves also, and flow_control may be used
> on pipeline=valve nodes.
>
> All the best
>
>
> *François Lacombe*
>
> fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
> www.infos-reseaux.com
> @InfosReseaux 
>
> 2017-04-21 13:56 GMT+02:00 John Willis :
>
>>
>> Thanks Marc and John - that is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't
>> know that word, so searching the wiki didn't help.
>>
>> I will follow the wiki on that.
>>
>> Any suggestions for the landuse for water control facilities?
>>
>> Javbw.
>>
>>
>>
>> Javbw
>> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 7:57 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> >
>> > that's what I use (I seem to be one of the more heavy users of this
>> tag).
>>
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Re: [Tagging] water control valves/gates

2017-04-21 Thread François Lacombe 
Hi,

I wasn't aware of this word too and it's a nice find :)

Sluice gates won't be used elsewhere than on waterways (even underground
pipelines or penstocks) but discharge points can be found on a any
pressurized pipeline system (hydraulic, pneumatic and so on)
flow_control should be freely used on waterway=*, pipeline=* or even
man_made structures (dam)

Furthermore, you can find sluice valves also, and flow_control may be used
on pipeline=valve nodes.

All the best


*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2017-04-21 13:56 GMT+02:00 John Willis :

>
> Thanks Marc and John - that is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't
> know that word, so searching the wiki didn't help.
>
> I will follow the wiki on that.
>
> Any suggestions for the landuse for water control facilities?
>
> Javbw.
>
>
>
> Javbw
> > On Apr 21, 2017, at 7:57 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > that's what I use (I seem to be one of the more heavy users of this tag).
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Christoph Hormann 
On Friday 21 April 2017, Chris Hill wrote:
> A leat is a very specific thing. It is certainly not a canal, but
> neither is it a ditch nor drain. I would favour waterway=leat. That
> describes, unambiguously, exactly what it is.

I guess from your perspective it is but please try to define the meaning 
of waterway=leat for non-native English speakers from a completely 
different part of the world in a way that clearly tells them when to 
use this tag and when to use a different one.

For native English speakers this is often much more difficult - you try 
to synchronize your use of waterway=canal/ditch/drain with your 
understanding of these terms in your language - and inevitably fail 
with that attempt.  I just use these tags as defined on the wiki or as 
they are used by other mappers and don't concern myself with the 
inherent meaning of the value outside OSM.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] water control valves/gates

2017-04-21 Thread John Willis 

Thanks Marc and John - that is exactly what I was looking for. I didn't know 
that word, so searching the wiki didn't help. 

I will follow the wiki on that. 

Any suggestions for the landuse for water control facilities? 

Javbw. 



Javbw
> On Apr 21, 2017, at 7:57 PM, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> that's what I use (I seem to be one of the more heavy users of this tag).

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 


sent from a phone

> On 21. Apr 2017, at 13:26, Chris Hill  wrote:
> 
> A leat is a very specific thing. It is certainly not a canal, but neither is 
> it a ditch nor drain.


I would have thought it was a kind of ditch from the description in WP but if 
it isn't I agree that waterway=leat seems suitable to describe accurately the 
feature 


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Chris Hill 
A leat is a very specific thing. It is certainly not a canal, but 
neither is it a ditch nor drain. I would favour waterway=leat. That 
describes, unambiguously, exactly what it is.


--
cheers
Chris Hill (chillly)

On 21/04/2017 12:20, Christoph Hormann wrote:

On Friday 21 April 2017, John Sturdy wrote:

   waterway=canal
   canal=leat

vs

   waterway=leat

waterway=canal is for larger artificial waterways only.

Our current tagging scheme for artificial waterways is not very
consistent because it derives essentially from three originally very
specific but at the same time only vaguely defined types
(canal/drain/ditch).  Creating yet another equally specific and equally
ill defined type (waterway=leat) will not improve that.

I would suggest sticking with the three established types and adding
service=* and width=* as it applies.




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Re: [Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread Christoph Hormann 
On Friday 21 April 2017, John Sturdy wrote:
>
>   waterway=canal
>   canal=leat
>
> vs
>
>   waterway=leat

waterway=canal is for larger artificial waterways only.

Our current tagging scheme for artificial waterways is not very 
consistent because it derives essentially from three originally very 
specific but at the same time only vaguely defined types 
(canal/drain/ditch).  Creating yet another equally specific and equally 
ill defined type (waterway=leat) will not improve that.

I would suggest sticking with the three established types and adding 
service=* and width=* as it applies.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] water control valves/gates

2017-04-21 Thread Marc Gemis 
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:30 AM, John Sturdy  wrote:
> This sounds like a sluice gate to me:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sluice_gate
>
> Or is there some significant difference?

that's what I use (I seem to be one of the more heavy users of this tag).

m.

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[Tagging] Mapping leats

2017-04-21 Thread John Sturdy 
I've been armchair-mapping some rural places in Albania, and have found
what appear to be quite long leats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leat);
I've mapped them as canals for now, with a note explaining that they're for
water delivery, and marking boat=no.  Any thoughts on:

  waterway=canal
  canal=leat

vs

  waterway=leat

?

Example at
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/7152352#map=13/41.5165/20.0794

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Re: [Tagging] water control valves/gates

2017-04-21 Thread John Sturdy 
This sounds like a sluice gate to me:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/sluice_gate

Or is there some significant difference?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:43 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> this object is what I am interested in tagging:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/488358755#map=19/36.22843/139.30731
>
>
> Along the hundreds of KM of levees surrounding the large river near my
> house, each stream, drain, canal, storm drain, etc has a culvert through
> the levee, controlled by a manual or electrically controlled “gate” valve.
> similar structures are seen all over Japan, so there are conservatively
> thousands of these gate valves mappable from imagery just here in Japan.
>
> some are very small (50cmx50cm for a drain) and some are very large (1x3m
> for a stream), but all share some common traits:
>
> - control water from a small waterway going into a larger waterway, often
> through a culvert under a levee.
>
> - easily mappable from arial imagery.
>
> - Valve structure is on the inside edge of the levee, not on the sides of
> the embankment nor the top.
>
> - the control structure for the gate valve sticks up out of the the ground
> to the height of the adjacent levee.
>
> - some are human operated, some have electric motors, but there is always
> mechanical mechanism on top for opening and closing the gate valve.
>
>
> some also have related items:
>
> - a second valve on the outside of the levee for safety redundancy or flow
> control for pumps.
>
> - a footbridge out from the top of the levee to the top of the valve
> control mechanism
>
> - a building on top of the gate structure to cover the valves (not a
> pump-house)
>
> - a small reservoir to hold water if the gate is closed. (easily tagged)
>
> - the valve structure on the inside of the levee is protected by concrete
> erosion protection along the sides of the levee and the bottom of the
> floodplain. (man-made erosion protection has no tag)
>
> Rarely:
>
> - a pumphouse adjacent for forcing water into the river.
> (man_made=pumping_station)
>
> - a landuse that is fenced and surrounds the valve if there are buildings
> and a reservoir. usually these have no surrounding land - they just sit out
> in the open with no protection or additional structures.
>
>
>
> waterway=flow_control has 200 overall uses  https://taginfo.
> openstreetmap.org/tags/waterway=flow_control ( my first time to see it).
>
> and waterway=valve has 10 uses
>
>
>
> I would like suggestions for:
>
>
> is waterway=flow_control a good node value to use for these valves on a
> waterway? It seems okay to me.
>
> for valve structures that are very large (some are the size of a large
> truck) and easily mappable as a structure, what to use for that? I used
> building=yes + man_made=valve for the building.
>
> I put a waterway=flow_control node where the culvert exits through the
> gate valve.
>
> a landuse for some water control complexes - landuse=industrial?
> man_made=umping_station on the area rather than the building?
> man_made=water-works seems really wrong.
>
>
>
> here is a pumphouse site I tagged with the valve above.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/36.22858/139.30654
>
> https://www.pref.saitama.lg.jp/a0906/gijutukanri/documents/h26.pdf (pictures
> on the 5th page).
>
> - it has 2 gates valves, one on either side of the levee.
> - a reservoir
> - a building for the pumphouse.
> - a fenced area around the site.
>
>
> Please give me some advice on the gates.
>
> Javbw.
>
>
>
>
>
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