Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

and bonus question, if the model before was backrest=yes, what about these:
https://www.instantstreetview.com/@41.860842,12.498511,120.32h,-12.44p,2.08z
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 15:37 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

>
> an example: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ixqzpTVm4e40cEgUJSGlrw




to me this is a group of chairs, but according to the current wiki
definition, it could probably be mapped as amenity=bench.

As we already are in the bikesheds of bench mapping, what do you say about
this:

https://ilyabirman.net/world/rome/i/IMG_8643.jpg

these are "seating" possibilities on Roman bus stops, too narrow to really
sit, and obviously (why they probably put them) to sleep. Is there a
minimum "depth" we should require for seating? What about a tense wire, is
that still a bench?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Marc Gemis]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2018-04-30 12:53 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :
>>
>> This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches:
>> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA
>> Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here
>> only 1 is used.
>
>
>
>
> IMHO no bench there. Not sure if several of them attached could be called a
> bench, or more likely a row of chairs.
>

an example: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ixqzpTVm4e40cEgUJSGlrw

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 12:53 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches:
> https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA
> Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here
> only 1 is used.
>



IMHO no bench there. Not sure if several of them attached could be called a
bench, or more likely a row of chairs.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Marc Gemis]

This is probably one of those objects mapped as 1-person benches:
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/Zg9gXzS-fC_ZYR3CUNZTMA
Typically there are 3 or 4 of those attached to one another, but here
only 1 is used.

m.

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> 2018-04-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 :
>>
>> There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped:
>> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN
>>
>>
>
>
>
> there are 1962 nodes with this invalid combination, out of 876 820 benches
> in total. It is normal that some people try to squeeze the round into the
> square and don't care for the definition. Probably most are tagging for the
> renderer...
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 12:27 GMT+02:00 :

> There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped:
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN
>
>
>


there are 1962 nodes with this invalid combination, out of 876 820 benches
in total. It is normal that some people try to squeeze the round into the
square and don't care for the definition. Probably most are tagging for the
renderer...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sorry, correction: ...are _not_ benches according to OSM standards...
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 12:19 GMT+02:00 :

> Looking at the specified dimensions, that thing is 1m wide (which I assume
> is the outside dimension, so make it maybe 90cm available to sit in
> between).
>


you have posted 4 "benches", and only one has arm rests which might make it
unsuitable for 2 people to sit on. Generally, an adult needs about 50cm to
sit (straight) and 60cm to sit comfortable, so if we don't want to sit
uncomfortable, these benches are amenity=bench according to OSM standards.

You can always make a proposal for voting on a wiki change.
It wasn't me putting the definition for benches there, but wrt the number
of persons I agree with it.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/04/2018 22:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Maybe sun lounge would be a better choice? 
http://streetfurniture.com/au/dev/product/mall-sun-lounge/





Not lounge! That usage may result from a confusion between the 
expression 'chaise longue' and the word 'lounge'. A lounge is a room. 
This item of furniture is perhaps a lounger, but not a lounge.


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[osm.tagging]

There are a decent number of one seat benches already mapped: 
https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/ynN

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer  
Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 20:16
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

 

 

 

2018-04-30 12:03 GMT+02:00  >:

A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think…

 

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench-stss5585.html

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench-andv3138.html

https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern-ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html

….





by their name (one seat bench), those aren't benches according to the OSM 
definition, but looking their actual dimensions (slightly more than 1m wide)  I 
would say you could seat 2 europeans on these benches ;-)

Please also note that we are discussing amenity=bench, i.e. a public piece of 
furniture, not things someone could set up in her private space. In the public 
space, one seat benches are not common at all, there are either chairs or 
multiperson benches.

 

Cheers,

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[osm.tagging]

Looking at the specified dimensions, that thing is 1m wide (which I assume is 
the outside dimension, so make it maybe 90cm available to sit in between). 

 

I don’t think 2 average adults that aren’t in the habit of swapping body fluids 
are going to feel very comfortable occupying it together.

 

From: Andy Townsend  
Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 20:08
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

 

On 30/04/2018 11:03, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au 
  wrote:

A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think…

 

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html


That's clearly for someone whose "seat" is even wider than mine :)

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 12:03 GMT+02:00 :

> A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think…
>
>
>
> https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-
> elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html
>
> https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench-
> stss5585.html
>
> https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench-
> andv3138.html
>
> https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern-
> ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html
>
> ….
>



by their name (one seat bench), those aren't benches according to the OSM
definition, but looking their actual dimensions (slightly more than 1m
wide)  I would say you could seat 2 europeans on these benches ;-)

Please also note that we are discussing amenity=bench, i.e. a public piece
of furniture, not things someone could set up in her private space. In the
public space, one seat benches are not common at all, there are either
chairs or multiperson benches.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Andy Townsend]

On 30/04/2018 11:03, osm.tagg...@thorsten.engler.id.au wrote:


A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think…

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html



That's clearly for someone whose "seat" is even wider than mine :)

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Selfish Seahorse]

In my opinion, (sun)loungers are something different form benches, as
they are designed to lie on, not to sit on. Besides, tagging them
amenity=bench + bench:type=lounger would mean we need another
bench:type for real benches.

Instead, I suggest amenity=lounger.

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[osm.tagging]

A “one person bench” doesn’t seem as rare as people seem to think…

 

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/wildon-home-elmore-one-seat-bench-ut2860.html

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/17-stories-madhav-one-seat-bench-stss5585.html

https://www.wayfair.com/furniture/pdp/andover-mills-delano-one-seat-bench-andv3138.html

https://www.wayfair.com/commercial/pdp/sunpan-modern-ikon-darby-one-seat-bench-snpn4130.html

….

 

From: Martin Koppenhoefer  
Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 19:06
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

 

 

 

2018-04-30 10:40 GMT+02:00  >:

That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many places a 
bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that...

 

the wiki suggests "1" would indeed be an invalid value for a bench capacity, as 
would be "0" for instance. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask for a 
"bench" to be able to accomodate more than one person, otherwise the thing 
would be called "chair" or maybe "throne". Chairs could have subclasses like 
armchair, easy_chair, cantilever_chair, but a bench wouldn't fit into a chair 
category, and vice versa, a chair isn't fitting in the bench category.

FWIW, although chairs don't fit into it, I believe the bench definition is 
still overly inclusive, as it seems to include any place for more than one 
person to sit. I would have preferred to include the term "long seat" to make 
it clear it is about an intentionally set up place.

Cheers,

Martin

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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Thilo Haug OSM]

perhaps

musical_instrument:usage=

?

Am 30.04.2018 um 11:22 schrieb Marc Gemis:
> Besides the arguments from Martin,
>
> how do you differentiate the "rental" in a bar, where you can only
> play on the instrument, and not take it away from the room/building
> from a real rental company that deliver instruments to play somewhere
> else ?
>
>> musical_instrument:sales=*
>> musical_instrument:rental=*
>> musical_instrument:repair=*
>> musical_instrument:parts=*
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument
>>
>> I case of the bars,
>> it could be
>> amenity=bar
>> musical_instrument:rental=piano
>> fee:piao=no @ customers
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Marc Gemis]

Besides the arguments from Martin,

how do you differentiate the "rental" in a bar, where you can only
play on the instrument, and not take it away from the room/building
from a real rental company that deliver instruments to play somewhere
else ?

> musical_instrument:sales=*
> musical_instrument:rental=*
> musical_instrument:repair=*
> musical_instrument:parts=*
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dmusical_instrument
>
> I case of the bars,
> it could be
> amenity=bar
> musical_instrument:rental=piano
> fee:piao=no @ customers
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee

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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-29 11:15 GMT+02:00 Thilo Haug OSM :

> I case of the bars,
>
> it could be
> amenity=bar
> musical_instrument:rental=piano
> fee:piao=no @ customers
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:fee
>


this seems bad tagging, as "renting" necessarily implies paying a fee, so
fee=no would be contradicting with the general meaning of the other tag.

On a sidenote, when you use conditional tagging you should use a
conditional tagging key, e.g. fee:piano:conditional=no @ customers, and
usually you should also tag the default case fee:piano=*

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-04-30 10:40 GMT+02:00 :

> That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many
> places a bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that...



the wiki suggests "1" would indeed be an invalid value for a bench
capacity, as would be "0" for instance. I don't think it is unreasonable to
ask for a "bench" to be able to accomodate more than one person, otherwise
the thing would be called "chair" or maybe "throne". Chairs could have
subclasses like armchair, easy_chair, cantilever_chair, but a bench
wouldn't fit into a chair category, and vice versa, a chair isn't fitting
in the bench category.

FWIW, although chairs don't fit into it, I believe the bench definition is
still overly inclusive, as it seems to include any place for more than one
person to sit. I would have preferred to include the term "long seat" to
make it clear it is about an intentionally set up place.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Jo]

- tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other

2018-04-30 11:00 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:36 AM, José G Moya Y. 
> wrote:
> > I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
> > problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar.
> Imagine
> > a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
> >
> > amenity=bar
> > amenity=musical_instrument
> > musical_instrument=piano
> > access=private
>
> how can you add to amenities to 1 node without using e.g. a semi-colon ?
> so you have
>
> amenity=bar;musical_instrument
>
> Semi-colons in tags such as amenity and leisure (and other "main"
> tags) will often cause problems with the other tags. The reason is, as
> you pointed out, one does not know to which amenity or leisure the
> other tags applies.
>
> There are several solutions possible (depending on the case)
>
> - tag them as separate points (not a good idea here, as 1 is in the other)
> - tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other
> - another tagging scheme
>
> regards
>
> m.
>
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Re: [Tagging] musical_instrument tag for publicly available musical instruments

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Apr 29, 2018 at 10:36 AM, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
> I think this is a good idea, but, in the suggestion of Thorsten, I find
> problematic the use of "access=" tag when instruments are in a bar. Imagine
> a bar with a private piano is tagged as a point:
>
> amenity=bar
> amenity=musical_instrument
> musical_instrument=piano
> access=private

how can you add to amenities to 1 node without using e.g. a semi-colon ?
so you have

amenity=bar;musical_instrument

Semi-colons in tags such as amenity and leisure (and other "main"
tags) will often cause problems with the other tags. The reason is, as
you pointed out, one does not know to which amenity or leisure the
other tags applies.

There are several solutions possible (depending on the case)

- tag them as separate points (not a good idea here, as 1 is in the other)
- tag one of them as area, position the other as node inside the other
- another tagging scheme

regards

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[osm.tagging]

That definition seems overly strict. There is a tag to define how many places a 
bench has. And I don't think "1" is an invalid value for that...

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
> Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018 18:33
> To: Yves 
> Cc: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
> 
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs
> 
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > On 30. Apr 2018, at 10:20, Yves  wrote:
> >
> > They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so
> I'd be inclined to say they are a kind of bench.
> > No need to follow an exact dictionary definition
> 
> 
> indeed I was writing about the wiki definition, not the dictionary
> definition. “A place for people to sit; allows room for several
> people.”
> 
> The chairs on the picture are designed for one person, not several.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Apr 2018, at 10:20, Yves  wrote:
> 
> They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so I'd be 
> inclined to say they are a kind of bench. 
> No need to follow an exact dictionary definition


indeed I was writing about the wiki definition, not the dictionary definition. 
“A place for people to sit; allows room for several people.”

The chairs on the picture are designed for one person, not several.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Yves]

They however serve a purpose very similar to 'public benches', so I'd be 
inclined to say they are a kind of bench. 
No need to follow an exact dictionary definition, here a path is a 'highway': 
tags are tags, not words. 

Le 30 avril 2018 09:00:36 GMT+02:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 a écrit :
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 30. Apr 2018, at 07:49, Yves  wrote:
>> 
>> Amenity=bench with a subtag seems a good idea for data consumers.
>
>
>if these aren’t benches it can’t be solved with a subtag.
>
>cheers,
>Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Outdoor deckchairs

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 30. Apr 2018, at 07:49, Yves  wrote:
> 
> Amenity=bench with a subtag seems a good idea for data consumers.


if these aren’t benches it can’t be solved with a subtag.

cheers,
Martin 
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