Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10. Aug 2018, at 00:42, Daniel McCormick  wrote:
> 
> While the default renderer favors name=* over name:nl or name:fr that is not 
> the case for other renderers. We as contributors might think that is the most 
> prominent way to view the data but not all renderers are the same. Having our 
> data be specific in saying this is the French name, this is the Flemish name 
> and this is the German name gives the data more flexibility than just having 
> all languages thrown into one name=* field.



nobody questions the usefulness of name:language tags, the question is only 
what, if anything, to put in the name tag in multilingual areas (and also this 
is a term which can describe a lot of different realities, which not 
necessarily have to be treated all the same).

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Daniel McCormick]

I have to agree with Marc on the position of rendering. It would appear to me 
that the use of separators in the name=* field comes from a desire to have the 
default map renderer on opentstreetmap.org  show 
both names. This is mapping to the renderer. The best way to view OSM is not as 
the default renderer depicts it but as a repository of geospatial data that the 
renderer then assists the contributor in viewing and understanding. Even though 
it gets in the way at times. While the default renderer favors name=* over 
name:nl or name:fr that is not the case for other renderers. We as contributors 
might think that is the most prominent way to view the data but not all 
renderers are the same. Having our data be specific in saying this is the 
French name, this is the Flemish name and this is the German name gives the 
data more flexibility than just having all languages thrown into one name=* 
field. The hierarchy of what is chosen to be rendered depends on the renderer 
and therefore we should hold the same standard. When it comes to not mapping to 
the renderer we hold it to the OSM standard rather than mapping to the 
renderer. 

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>   1. Re: Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
>  (Marc Gemis)
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 13:23:22 +0200
> From: Marc Gemis 
> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"
>   
> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual
>   names
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> ]
>>> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
>> 
>> That can be a sign that something is amiss.
> 
> the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
> to do something on carto-css for osm.org
> We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
> that problem at all.
> 
> As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
> announces the name field and not name:nl
> Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
> of the two depending on preference or situation.
> 
> As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
> name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
> what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
> name:xx fields.
> Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
> (e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
> maker.
> 
> All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
> addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
> someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.
> 
> m.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
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> End of Tagging Digest, Vol 107, Issue 48
> 

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 9 August 2018 at 18:03, Colin Smale  wrote:

> Random example:
> https://www.google.com/maps/@50.826443,4.2963849,3a,15y,
> 217.26h,94.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2SqOf8gphVOZYqsHOKlXA!
> 2e0!7i13312!8i6656
>

Interesting, because I notice that Google (the fount of all knowledge where
it comes to online mapping /s :-)) only shows the street name as Rue Claude
Debussy, despite what is shown on the sign

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Missing access value (access=license / authorization?)

[Szem]

I've done it. I've translated all the main paraghraphs into Hungarian 
and sent the links of proposal page and others to openstreetmap-hungary 
list. I hope more mappers are going to use the access=permit tag.


2018.08.07. 22:57 keltezéssel, Martin Koppenhoefer írta:


sent from a phone


On 7. Aug 2018, at 21:53, Szem  wrote:

How can I support it to make progress?


use the tag yourself and encourage other mappers to do the same.


Cheers,
Martin

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes

[Eric H. Christensen]

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I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think we've had 
two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs and it's time to get 
this thing out the door!

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes

Thanks,
Eric


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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

]
> > p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.
>
> That can be a sign that something is amiss.

the previous times it popped up was not for consistency reasons, but
to do something on carto-css for osm.org
We do have multiple local tile sets for Belgium, where we do not have
that problem at all.

As a Flemish person it's even annoying that software like OsmAnd
announces the name field and not name:nl
Nobody uses the composed FR-NL name in real live. You always use one
of the two depending on preference or situation.

As someone suggested before, perhaps we should get rid of the usage of
name field for the default osm.org map and let the renderer decide
what (and how) to display names in multi-language areas based on
name:xx fields.
Let the local community assist in setting up those rules for carto-css
(e.g. French before Dutch), but the separator is decided by the map
maker.

All that seems better than starting to change the name (and
addr:street) field of tens of thousands of objects just because
someone does not like the rendering on the default osm.org map.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Points instead of areas

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 09.08.2018 o 08:40, Christoph Hormann pisze:

> No, as i have written and explained this is fundamentally wrong. But it
> is a nice summary of the base dogma of the "everything is a polygon" 
> fraction in OSM.

To be honest, the world is 4D, not just 2D, but OSM is not well-suited
to reflect it. Yet we try to do it anyway, because it's useful and
achievable (height: S3DB, F3DB, ele..., time: opening hours,
seasonal...). 2D is just the most natural in this project, and 1D (line
objects) and 0D (points) are just "because it's easier/useful" for some
reason (routing, lack of time, big scale rendering, lack of high
precision aerial photos... etc.).

You claim that points are "better verifiable" and "better for mappers"
than areas - so I have shown it's basically not true, and just because I
don't agree with both your dogmas I look like "2D dogmatic" (?) now.

***

But while we are talking about 2D on Tagging list - there's something
that bugs me for a long time. My proposition is to explicitly allow it
in Wiki for objects like benches:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dbench

I don't suggest disallowing node, but allowing more precise data.

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 11:38 AM, Andy Mabbett 
wrote:

Signs can use different fonts, text size, colours and "line breaks" to
> indicate meaning which cannot be captured in a single line of plain
> text.


A one-minute walk from me is this sign:

Heol Napier
Napier Street

It's possible to indicate this with name:cy and name:en but only one of
those gets rendered.  Which is a bit of
a problem if you get a text message telling you that what you're looking
for is on Napier Street but the map displays
only Heol Napier.  My own opinion is that what is rendered should be what
is on the street sign (I am aware there
are people who strongly hold different views).  To my mind, "Heol Napier /
Napier Street" is the best compromise
until the name field permits, and the renderer honours, line breaks.

Name:xx=* also appears to be a problem in that if it is present some
renderers will display that in place of name=*.
Different renderers have their own idea which of multiple name:xx=* to use
if more than one is present.

Note also that some Welsh signage takes advantage of the different word
order in Welsh and English so you'll
encounter things like "Cyfeithwyr Welch & Co Solicitors" which is an
amalgamation of "Cyfeithwyr Welch & Co"
and "Welch & Co Solicitors."  It can also happen on street signage.

It gets messy, and I feel we do not yet have a perfect solution.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 9 August 2018 at 09:21, Marc Gemis  wrote:


>> Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical
>> differences between French and Dutch; where the significant part
>> is a proper name (X), in French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is
>> "Xstraat", so the sign says Rue X-straat.

> That's true and I always wondered why the community didn't take that
> approach. Map what is on the sign.

Signs can use different fonts, text size, colours and "line breaks" to
indicate meaning which cannot be captured in a single line of plain
text.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Andy Mabbett]

On 9 August 2018 at 06:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> Can you please elaborate a bit on the reason for your question ?

To reduce the cognitive load on mappers.

> Is it because you want a map with a uniform syntax for multiple names ?

No.

> I assume it is not because  humans do not understand the meaning of
> one of the following forms Biel / Bienne, Biel/Bienne, Biel - Bienne,
> Biel (Bienne)

Indeed.

> Or do you want a uniform system for parsing ?

No.

> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.

I understand that already.

> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.

That can be a sign that something is amiss.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:09 AM Colin Smale  wrote:
>
> On 2018-08-09 08:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
>
>
> the question is about the "name in the local language".
>
> Is it not about the "name as signed in situ"? (Cf. "on-the-ground trumps 
> everything else" rule)
>
> In the case of Brussels, are all signs "fr - nl" or are some "nl - fr" ?
>
> Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical differences 
> between French and Dutch; where the significant part is a proper name (X), in 
> French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is "Xstraat", so the sign says Rue 
> X-straat.
>

That's true and I always wondered why the community didn't take that
approach. Map what is on the sign. But it is very well possible that 2
signs for the same street use different ways of combining French and
Dutch.

I think I have seen some signs of paths in the Zoniënwoud where they
use the full Dutch and French name and Dutch was in front. The were
not the regular street name signs as in the example you gave.

But anyway, the OP's question was for greater, world-wide consistency.
Using the contraction mechanism used in Brussels will not accomplish
that.

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Marc Gemis]

The OP wrote "Greater consistency would surely be advantageous?"

That is why I asked to elaborate  a bit on "why / to whom".

he never mentioned "the question is about the “name in the local
language”." That was the main topic of the previous discussion on the
combined names.

m.
On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 8:46 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> >
> > The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> > a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
>
> the question is about the “name in the local language”.
>
>
> cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-08-09 08:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
>> 
>> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
>> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
> 
> the question is about the "name in the local language".

Is it not about the "name as signed in situ"? (Cf. "on-the-ground trumps
everything else" rule) 

In the case of Brussels, are all signs "fr - nl" or are some "nl - fr" ?


Also many bilingual street signs in Belgium exploit grammatical
differences between French and Dutch; where the significant part is a
proper name (X), in French it might be "Rue X", in Dutch it is
"Xstraat", so the sign says Rue X-straat. 

Random example: 
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.826443,4.2963849,3a,15y,217.26h,94.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY2SqOf8gphVOZYqsHOKlXA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


So it looks like the text on the signs cannot be recreated from name:fr
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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2018, at 07:17, Marc Gemis  wrote:
> 
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.


the question is about the “name in the local language”.


cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Missing access value (access=license / authorization?)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Aug 2018, at 19:42, Szem  wrote:
> 
> Other mappers and me are just an absolute minimum, negligible part of the 
> whole community. Until this is not included in the wiki, it is hardly known 
> by anyone.


it is already included in the wiki, there’s the proposal linked above.

If there isn’t yet, you could add a link to the proposal from the access page 
in the “See also” section

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Points instead of areas

[Christoph Hormann]

On Thursday 09 August 2018, Daniel Koc4� wrote:
>
> I like real life detailed data, but even in theory it's clear for me
> that while people might want some points, they are just what I've
> said - generalizations. [...]

No, as i have written and explained this is fundamentally wrong.  But it 
is a nice summary of the base dogma of the "everything is a polygon" 
fraction in OSM.

What i find most amazing is that you try to uphold this dogma even where 
it is obvious how it clashes with reality like in the bench example.

Well - i cannot do anything about it if you are not ready to question 
your assumtions.  

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names

[Jo]

Op do 9 aug. 2018 om 07:18 schreef Marc Gemis :

> Andy,
>
> Can you please elaborate a bit on the reason for your question ?
> Is it because you want a map with a uniform syntax for multiple names ?
> I assume it is not because  humans do not understand the meaning of
> one of the following forms Biel / Bienne, Biel/Bienne, Biel - Bienne,
> Biel (Bienne)
> Or do you want a uniform system for parsing ?
>
> The name field is just a label. If you want to know the exact name in
> a certain language you look at the name:xx field.
>
> p.s. It is not the first time this question pops up.  Not so long ago
> someone proposed to have a second field that indicates the format in
> which the name field is written.
>

Funnily enough they were not happy with

fr - nl

in that field though. But anyway, like Marc said, it's really easy to parse
using name:nl and name:fr. And if you really want, you can always put the
separator you prefer in between them in your rendering, or reverse the
order, or drop one of the languages.
Brussels is officially bilingual, so dropping 1 of the languages is not
exactly acceptable either, not for the general name tag anyway.

Polyglot
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