[Tagging] Tagging suggestions for electricity

[Dolly Andriatsiferana]

Hi,

I was searching for a tag to indicate if a building has electricity or not,
and if possible to specify the electricity source. I've found no documented
tag, but a search on taginfo [1] led me to the key electricity=*. Currently
it's being used mostly with values solar/none/generator/yes/always.

On OSM Help [2] someone proposed the following tagging which seems better
in my opinion too:

   - electricity=yes/no/intermittent - to indicate the presence of
   electricity
   - electricity:source=solar/generator/distribution_company/windmill... -
   to specify the electricity source
   - electricity:voltage=* - the electricity voltage
   - other details using namespaces...

What do you think? Has someone here used the electricity=* tag before?
Afterwards we might be able to start documenting the tag on the wiki.

Cheers,
Dolly

[1] https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/electricity
[2]
https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/65477/indicate-if-a-building-has-electricity-or-not
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Andy Townsend]

On 28/08/2018 14:53, Philip Barnes wrote:


They are not beside bridleways, ...


All the ones I've mapped have been - often before and after bridges and 
tunnels, so that you can lead Dobbin on foot rather than risk banging 
your head or risk being thrown off onto the motorway when a car horn 
scares a horse.


As I already mentioned on talk-gb the lua code I use for rendering these 
things is:


--

-- Horse mounting blocks
--

   if (( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["bridleway"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["historic"]  == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting_block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["horse"] == "mounting block"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_step"    ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "mounting_steps"   ) or
   ( keyvalues["amenity"]   == "horse_dismount_block" )) then
  keyvalues["man_made"] = "mounting_block"
end

that corresponds to the examples that I found in the UK via taginfo.  
Some of these make more sense than others (e.g. I'm not convinced of 
"horse" or "bridleway" as a key in this context).


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 3:54 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
> > On 28. Aug 2018, at 15:50, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > As others have said ... old does not mean historic.
>
> no, but not in use anymore means historic
>

No, "not in use any more" means "disused" or even "abandoned."  "Historic"
means that it has importance or significance
in history.

There are some disused buildings in my town.  One day some of them might be
renovated and brought back
into use.  They are not historic.  I can't find any details about their
former use or even their address.  They just sit
there sad and forlorn.

There is another disused building, with plans to convert it to a shop, that
is a listed building and is of historic
importance.  See
https://britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300010470-former-hope-chapel-cardigan
for why it
is listed and
http://www.glen-johnson.co.uk/no-39-st-mary-street-advertiser-office/ for
far more of its history.  That is a
historic building, the other disused/abandoned buildings scattered around
town are not.  Even after that building is
converted into a shop it will still remain historic by the definition in
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Historic but will
cease to be historic by your definition (which is another reason your
definition is not a good one).

Historic as a tag is documented as not meaning "old" or "old fashioned" or
"disused" and, in my opinion, should not be
used to mean those things.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Aug 2018, at 15:50, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> As others have said ... old does not mean historic.


no, but not in use anymore means historic 


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[John Sturdy]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 2:55 PM Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Tue, 2018-08-28 at 14:25 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
>
> Or, like bus stops, perhaps they could come under "highway", as they're a
> starting / ending point for a journey which is typically along a highway
> (such as a bridleway).
>
>
> They are not beside bridleways, they are typically part of the front
> structure of buildings of an age that means they are automatically grade II
> listed buildings. Standalone ones are also of an age that they will be
> protected. They are invariably within conservation areas.
>
> The one I was thinking of as an example is beside Queen's Road, Cambridge,
near the back of Clare College (
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/3792612#map=19/52.20522/0.11216) --- I'll
try to remember to add it when I next see quite where it is, unless someone
else gets there first.  That is, if we've decided how to tag them by then.


> I would maintain they are historic features of interest and not a part of
> modern horse riding.
>
> I'm pretty sure the one I mentioned is not in regular use now.


> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> 2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
>
> I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used for
> leisure and we can live with the few cases where
> they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we have
> amenity=bicycle_parking and not
> leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting blocks seem to
> me to be accessories to the leisure
> activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you get
> particular pleasure from parking your bike).
>
>
>
>
> I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are using
> bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was stated above by
> Philip that it has lost this function a long time ago (and I agree for the
> european context). There is no infrastructure any more for horses in the
> cities. There are no stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't
> get food easily and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It
> simply isn't practical any more to use horses for transport. I would use
> amenity= for horse parkings, e.g.
> https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3591/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Kevin Kenny]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 9:55 AM Philip Barnes  wrote:
> They are not beside bridleways, they are typically part of the front 
> structure of buildings of an age that means they are automatically grade II 
> listed buildings. Standalone ones are also of an age that they will be 
> protected. They are invariably within conservation areas.
>
> I would maintain they are historic features of interest and not a part of 
> modern horse riding.

Consider also the scene at
https://orthos.dhses.ny.gov/?Extent=-8263474.452075749,5187562.211271851,-8262985.673109871,5187771.815935289&Layers=2017_cache,2016_cache,2015_cache,2014_cache,2013_cache

The most obvious man-made objects in that clearing are a cabin (home
to the fire warden back when the place was staffed - it was
decommissioned in the 1970s), a lookout tower, a picnic table, an
outhouse, and, to the northeast, a mounting platform. People with
mobility impairments who are at least able to stand and pivot can use
the platform to mount a horse from a wheelchair (which can then be
loaded aboard a pack animal). This is part of a state program for
wilderness access for persons with disabilities.

I haven't tried to map the platforms. It's been a few years since I
was up to the summit of Hunter Mountain. The tower has terrific views,
but the trails tend to be crowded (well, by the standards of trails in
a wilderness area :)) in fair weather.

These must be some species of the genus that we're discussing.

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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Warin]

On 28/08/18 23:53, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Tue, 2018-08-28 at 14:25 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
Or, like bus stops, perhaps they could come under "highway", as 
they're a starting / ending point for a journey which is typically 
along a highway (such as a bridleway).


They are not beside bridleways, they are typically part of the front 
structure of buildings of an age that means they are automatically 
grade II listed buildings. Standalone ones are also of an age that 
they will be protected. They are invariably within conservation areas.


I would maintain they are historic features of interest and not a part 
of modern horse riding.


How about a nice historic blue plastic one from Smiths Animal health in 
Derbyshire? Only £88.95 ... new.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stubbs-Three-Tread-Horse-Mounting/dp/B07CQ2W5TB/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1535465632&sr=8-1&keywords=Stubbs-Three-Tread-Horse-Mounting

Of course it is also available in pink or red. I am surprised it is not 
available in historic British Racing Green.




Phil (trigpoint)



On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:



2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen >:
I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used for 
leisure and we can live with the few cases where
they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we 
have amenity=bicycle_parking and not
leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting blocks 
seem to me to be accessories to the leisure
activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you 
get particular pleasure from parking your bike).






I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are 
using bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was 
stated above by Philip that it has lost this function a long time 
ago (and I agree for the european context). There is no 
infrastructure any more for horses in the cities. There are no 
stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't get food easily 
and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It simply isn't 
practical any more to use horses for transport. I would use amenity= 
for horse parkings, e.g. 
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3591/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg


Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-08-28 at 14:25 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
> Or, like bus stops, perhaps they could come under "highway", as
> they're a starting / ending point for a journey which is typically
> along a highway (such as a bridleway).

They are not beside bridleways, they are typically part of the front
structure of buildings of an age that means they are automatically
grade II listed buildings. Standalone ones are also of an age that they
will be protected. They are invariably within conservation areas.
I would maintain they are historic features of interest and not a part
of modern horse riding.
Phil (trigpoint)
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM Martin Koppenhoefer  ail.com> wrote:
> > 2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
> > > I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used
> > > for leisure and we can live with the few cases wherethey are
> > > professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we have
> > > amenity=bicycle_parking and not
> > > leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting
> > > blocks seem to me to be accessories to the leisure
> > > activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you
> > > get particular pleasure from parking your bike).
> > 
> > 
> > I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are
> > using bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was
> > stated above by Philip that it has lost this function a long time
> > ago (and I agree for the european context). There is no
> > infrastructure any more for horses in the cities. There are no
> > stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't get food easily
> > and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It simply isn't
> > practical any more to use horses for transport. I would use
> > amenity= for horse parkings, e.g. https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/359
> > 1/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Martin
> > 
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> > 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Warin]

On 28/08/18 20:39, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Tue, 2018-08-28 at 12:17 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
2018-08-28 12:04 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen >:
My vote would be for amenity rather than man_made.  Amenities are 
something people (whether general
public, or customers, or members) use.  Man_made is usually for 
objects that are used mainly by employees.






I'm not decided, but want to bring the following point to 
consideration: Amenities are usually something for (a significant 
part of) society in general. Yes, schools are only for those who have 
children, hospitals only for those who are ill (potentially everyone 
though), and post offices only for who still sends paper mail or 
parcels.

Post offices are far more important than just sending mail.


That will depend on the services offered by the post office.. and that 
can be a local issue.


Hospitals are not only for the ill, but for anyone wanting medical 
assistance e.g. a broken limb, child birth.


 I think 'we' have all been children, then schools have been of some 
use for, I hope, all of us.





Still, these are significant parts (in number) of the population. 
Opposed to this, horse riding is a small fraction of society, and in 
rapid decline as well. These are numbers for the UK (numbers might be 
tainted, as they are from the horse riding industry):
"The overall number of those who ride has fallen, from 3.5 million in 
2011 to 2.7 million in 2015. There has been a decline in regular 
riders, from 1.6 million in 2011 to 1.3 million in 2015." [1] This 
equals to just 2-4% of the British population, for the overwhelming 
majority, these blocks are useless.
[1] 
http://www.beta-uk.org/pages/industry-information/market-information.php


Horse riding has long ceased to be a method of transport, but is a 
popular leisure activity. Whilst it is common to see horses out on the 
road, its quite rare to see them outside the local shops.


Horses are still preferred by some for mustering stock in some parts of 
the world.
And then then there are the Amish... apparently Wal-Mart provides 
covered shelters for their horse and buggy.

So they are still a part of working life for some.



I am not sure that these blocks are of any use in modern horse riding, 
I have never seen them used but are historic features that date back 
to a time when they were transport and used to get to the pub, shops 
or market.


I would use the historic tag so that they fit in with other preserved 
features.


As others have said ... old does not mean historic.
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Warin]

On 28/08/18 23:25, John Sturdy wrote:
Or, like bus stops, perhaps they could come under "highway", as 
they're a starting / ending point for a journey which is typically 
along a highway (such as a bridleway).

A very good point.


On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:




2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen mailto:pla16...@gmail.com>>:

I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be
used for leisure and we can live with the few cases where
they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that
we have amenity=bicycle_parking and not
leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting
blocks seem to me to be accessories to the leisure
activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless
you get particular pleasure from parking your bike).




I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are
using bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was
stated above by Philip that it has lost this function a long time
ago (and I agree for the european context). There is no
infrastructure any more for horses in the cities. There are no
stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't get food
easily and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It
simply isn't practical any more to use horses for transport. I
would use amenity= for horse parkings, e.g.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3591/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[John Sturdy]

Or, like bus stops, perhaps they could come under "highway", as they're a
starting / ending point for a journey which is typically along a highway
(such as a bridleway).

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:54 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
>
>> I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used for
>> leisure and we can live with the few cases where
>> they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we have
>> amenity=bicycle_parking and not
>> leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting blocks seem
>> to me to be accessories to the leisure
>> activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you get
>> particular pleasure from parking your bike).
>>
>
>
>
> I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are using
> bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was stated above by
> Philip that it has lost this function a long time ago (and I agree for the
> european context). There is no infrastructure any more for horses in the
> cities. There are no stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't
> get food easily and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It
> simply isn't practical any more to use horses for transport. I would use
> amenity= for horse parkings, e.g.
> https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3591/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-28 13:36 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used for
> leisure and we can live with the few cases where
> they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we have
> amenity=bicycle_parking and not
> leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting blocks seem to
> me to be accessories to the leisure
> activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you get
> particular pleasure from parking your bike).
>



I would not equate horse riding with cycling. A lot of people are using
bicycles as a means of transport, for horse riding it was stated above by
Philip that it has lost this function a long time ago (and I agree for the
european context). There is no infrastructure any more for horses in the
cities. There are no stables or spots where you may lock them, you won't
get food easily and hardly find spots where to let them water, etc. It
simply isn't practical any more to use horses for transport. I would use
amenity= for horse parkings, e.g.
https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3591/3609176621_a7ef6a55e5.jpg

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> +1, if they are only or mostly of historic value, I agree. If there are
> still new installations of these, I would use another tag. Other than
> "amenity" and "man_made", also "leisure" could be a candidate (because as
> you write, horses nowadays are only a leisure activity, or, in some
> occasions, a serious sport).
>

I was almost persuaded by "leisure."   Mostly they will be used for leisure
and we can live with the few cases where
they are professional accessories.  And then I remembered that we have
amenity=bicycle_parking and not
leisure=bicycle_parking.  Both bicycle parking and mounting blocks seem to
me to be accessories to the leisure
activity of riding and not intrinsic to the activity (unless you get
particular pleasure from parking your bike).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-28 12:39 GMT+02:00 Philip Barnes :

> Post offices are far more important than just sending mail.
>
>

agreed, also around here, I just didn't want to make my OT point too long



> I am not sure that these blocks are of any use in modern horse riding, I
> have never seen them used but are historic features that date back to a
> time when they were transport and used to get to the pub, shops or market.
> I would use the historic tag so that they fit in with other preserved
> features.
>


+1, if they are only or mostly of historic value, I agree. If there are
still new installations of these, I would use another tag. Other than
"amenity" and "man_made", also "leisure" could be a candidate (because as
you write, horses nowadays are only a leisure activity, or, in some
occasions, a serious sport).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Philip Barnes 
wrote:


> Horse riding has long ceased to be a method of transport, but is a popular
> leisure activity. Whilst it is common to see horses out on the road, its
> quite rare to see them outside the local shops.
>

Whether a popular mode of transport or now only for leisure, either way
qualifies as amenity.

I am not sure that these blocks are of any use in modern horse riding, I
> have never seen them used but are historic features that date back to a
> time when they were transport and used to get to the pub, shops or market.
>

https://www.google.com/search?q=horse+mounting+steps shows a lot of modern
sellers of these things.  I would
expect riding schools and at least some stables to have mounting blocks.

I would use the historic tag so that they fit in with other preserved
> features.
>
> That would seem to me to be misusing the historic tag UNLESS these were a
genuinely historic feature.  Say
a listed building (which applies to things like walls, fountains and
sundials as well as houses and barns).  Or
if they were commemorating some historic person.  The historic tag doesn't
equate to "old" and definitely doesn't
equate to "old-fashioned" or "rarity."  The historic tag is mainly used by
the gk.historic.place map and I think a
modern mounting block bought from Amazon last month definitely doesn't
qualify for inclusion there.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Philip Barnes]

On Tue, 2018-08-28 at 12:17 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2018-08-28 12:04 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :
> > My vote would be for amenity rather than man_made.  Amenities are
> > something people (whether general
> > public, or customers, or members) use.  Man_made is usually for
> > objects that are used mainly by employees.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not decided, but want to bring the following point to
> consideration: Amenities are usually something for (a significant
> part of) society in general. Yes, schools are only for those who have
> children, hospitals only for those who are ill (potentially everyone
> though), and post offices only for who still sends paper mail or
> parcels. 
Post offices are far more important than just sending mail.


> Still, these are significant parts (in number) of the population.
> Opposed to this, horse riding is a small fraction of society, and in
> rapid decline as well. These are numbers for the UK (numbers might be
> tainted, as they are from the horse riding industry):
> "The overall number of those who ride has fallen, from 3.5 million in
> 2011 to 2.7 million in 2015. There has been a decline in regular
> riders, from 1.6 million in 2011 to 1.3 million in 2015." [1] This
> equals to just 2-4% of the British population, for the overwhelming
> majority, these blocks are useless.
> [1] http://www.beta-uk.org/pages/industry-information/market-informat
> ion.php
> 
Horse riding has long ceased to be a method of transport, but is a
popular leisure activity. Whilst it is common to see horses out on the
road, its quite rare to see them outside the local shops.

I am not sure that these blocks are of any use in modern horse riding,
I have never seen them used but are historic features that date back to
a time when they were transport and used to get to the pub, shops or
market.

I would use the historic tag so that they fit in with other preserved
features.

Phil (trigpoint)___
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-28 12:04 GMT+02:00 Paul Allen :

> My vote would be for amenity rather than man_made.  Amenities are
> something people (whether general
> public, or customers, or members) use.  Man_made is usually for objects
> that are used mainly by employees.
>



I'm not decided, but want to bring the following point to consideration:
Amenities are usually something for (a significant part of) society in
general. Yes, schools are only for those who have children, hospitals only
for those who are ill (potentially everyone though), and post offices only
for who still sends paper mail or parcels. Still, these are significant
parts (in number) of the population. Opposed to this, horse riding is a
small fraction of society, and in rapid decline as well. These are numbers
for the UK (numbers might be tainted, as they are from the horse riding
industry):
"The overall number of those who ride has fallen, from 3.5 million in 2011
to 2.7 million in 2015. There has been a decline in regular riders, from
1.6 million in 2011 to 1.3 million in 2015." [1] This equals to just 2-4%
of the British population, for the overwhelming majority, these blocks are
useless.
[1] http://www.beta-uk.org/pages/industry-information/market-information.php

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] horse mounting/dismounting steps

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 1:35 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

mounting_block
> mounting_steps
>
> I think I prefer steps.
>

A quick google on "horse mounting steps" shows that block is more common
than steps.  And that was
with searching for "steps," not "block."  So block appears to be the
preferred term amongst those who use
them.  And those who use them are probably more likely to be the ones who
map them.

My vote would be for amenity rather than man_made.  Amenities are something
people (whether general
public, or customers, or members) use.  Man_made is usually for objects
that are used mainly by employees.
 A car park is an amenity.  A street cabinet (for telecoms, or water
pumping, or whatever) is man_made and
used only by the company employees who service them.  In my town there is a
public area with seats and
sculptures that qualifies as an amenity but in the middle is a very large
street cabinet that is a sewage
pumping station which is man_made and definitely not an amenity.  I see
these blocks as an amenity.

-- 
Paul
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