Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 9:24 PM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

>
> If it's necessary, I'm willing to make a proposal to change aboriginal /
> native lands to an administrative boundary, without an admin_level
> Would that solve the problem?
>
>
Please don't suggest changing aboriginal lands tag. I'm very familiar with
the US and to a smaller degree Canada. Admin_level doesn't work well for
aboriginal lands. In the US's case, aboriginal lands are considered
domestic dependant nations. While many are completely within a state, they
are not under the states control in that they are free to govern
themselves.

Using boundary=aboriginal_lands is an established practice that works.

Best,
Clifford

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Colin, the theread title is now incorrect. I no longer think it is feasible
to map the boundaries of languages.

The proposal will just seek to document the format of default name=* tags.
This will also provide information about the language used within in a
particular administrative boundary, as a side-benefit

I've been considering Brussels as a test-case, since they have already made
up their own tags and boundaries ( default_language=fr for example )

I've tried to contact one of the people who set up the language areas in
Belgium to get their opinion.

Warin:
I live in New Guinea, but on the Indonesian side.
While you may not see these languages as worth your time as a mapper, they
matter to the people here.
And the local langauges are used for all the local names for geographic
features, so they are getting into the OSM database, little by little.
If you don't live on one of these linguistic diversity hotspots it should
be much easier to tag just the proper admin boundary, even in Belgium
Joseph

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 6:56 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 16/09/18 01:37, Colin Smale wrote:
>
> Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you are trying
> to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end up with, who is the
> target audience? What are the use cases? Is it an aid to interpreting and
> pronouncing the contents of the "name" tag? Is it a (strong) hint to
> mappers about how to synthesize multilingual labels? Is it documenting the
> official languages, or the popular spoken languages, or what?
>
> Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political reasons, in
> practice large parts are essentially French-only. Composite street names
> can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest we work through Belgium as a case
> study, and when there is a proposal to suit Belgium, we then cross-check
> with e.g. Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?
>
>
> If you want an extreme case then Papua New Guinea has over 820 languages..
> all in one country.
> They have 3 official languages, usage varies depending on what you are.
> Documenting them would also be a challenge.
> The amount of work vs the people who will use the data?
> For PNG I don't see the work = the benefit.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages
>
>
>
>
> On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Re: "How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
> define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
> new concept to OSM."
>
> In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two
> languages neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a display
> order specification is necessary. That information is already in the
> default "name=*" tag
>
> "Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
> highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does
> everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?"
>
> Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues
>
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale 
> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>>
>> Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single
>> value to be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need
>> multiple defaults, see my comment above about different contexts."
>>
>> The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed
>> together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out
>> the Multilingual Names wiki page
>> , there are
>> places where people choose to standardize the default name=* be a
>> combination of two languages or two encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or
>> Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in
>> Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the choice of specifying two (or 3)
>> languages, to fit with their current preference.
>>
>>
>> How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
>> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
>> define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
>> new concept to OSM.
>>
>>
>> I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just
>> trying to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being
>> used in the value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more
>> communities that will choose this option, to encourage displaying names
>> both in the local langauge and in the official or national language.
>>
>> So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
>> Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in
>> Flanders, "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl"
>> in Brussels?
>>
>> Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
>> 

Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 108, Issue 71, languages & borders

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Good idea, Paul.
The individual language communities should have the say on what code to
use, especially if there is no language code already used in OSM.

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 12:47 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> 2018-09-15 16:49 GMT+02:00 Joseph Eisenberg :
>>
>>> If the language of Schiermonnikoog is used to name the hills, streams,
>>> streets and shops on the island, then it could be the default language for
>>> that place.
>>>
>>
>>
>> the local language obviously will be used to name the surroundings, but
>> it might not always have a script we can enter in our database. The
>> information about spoken languages is valuable independent from determining
>> the language used in the name tag.
>>
>
>
> If we're going to do this (for now I don't have a firm opinion either way)
> then I suggest we give some thought as to
> how we tag languages (and possibly scripts).  People have been implicitly
> referring to the ISO 639-1 two-letter
> language codes when they propose tags of the form language:xx=yes.
> They're not really adequate, which is why
> ISO 639-2 three-letter languages codes where introduced.
>
> But those were found to be inadequate in some applications, which is why
> Internet RFCs have built on that.
> Initially, to code for dialects: British and US English differ, and OSM
> prefers en-GB as opposed to en-US.
> Portuguese has two dialects: the one on Portugal and the one in Brazil.
> Welsh has two (three, if you count the
> small enclave of Welsh speakers in a village in Patagonia) and written
> Welsh differs from the spoken dialects
> in some ways.
>
> The latest RFC to try and make sense of all this and provide a sensible
> scheme is RFC 5646 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646  If you're not a
> programmer, it's hard work trying to figure it all out, so first look at
> the examples in
> Appendix A https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646#appendix-A to see what can
> be done.
>
> I'm not saying this proposal should adopt RFC 5646 (or even speaking in
> favour of the proposal), just saying that
> if it goes ahead we ought to at least take a look at what others have
> found necessary when tagging languages.
>
> --
> Paul
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

On Sun, Sep 16, 2018 at 1:23 AM Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> > Are you objecting to the idea of tagging places as well as
> > boundaries? What about the protected area / aboriginal lands
> > boundaries?
>
>
>
>
> * I don't think any tagging concept where the language format tag of a
> feature other than an administrative boundary relation has a meaning beyond
> said feature has a chance to be acutally broadly interpreted by data users.*
>

*boundary=administrative *may have up 9 levels in some places *(admin_level
2 to 10*)
Do we need to limit the max admin_level that can be used for the language
tag?
If not, why would it be a problem to also search for boundaries of
aboriginal_lands in addition to 8 admin boundary levels?

I don't quite understand the technical side of using this database, so
you'll have to explain it like I'm an idiot. :-)
(I do understand how interpreting tags on place nodes would be difficult)

If it's necessary, I'm willing to make a proposal to change aboriginal /
native lands to an administrative boundary, without an admin_level
Would that solve the problem?


> > OK, but is this necessary for it to work? Is a 3-letter ISO code
> > sufficient?
> > Would it be possible to put the language code in the key
> > (language:=default) or is it better to stick to the value?
>
>
> * I am not quite sure what your suggestion is.  You would need to
> formulate a specific suggestion for me to determine if this would work.  *
>

*language:default=* would have the code as the "value" in the
key=value pair

Examples:

*language:default=de* would be used on the admin_level=2 boundary for
Germany
*language:default=fr;nl *could be used on the administrative boundary for
Brussels
*language:default=zh;zh_pinyin* could be used in China, if the local
community wants to show the romanized name along with the Chinese characters

This is similar to how name tags are currently formed, though there the key
has the code in format name:<*code*>=

For this to work a database user would need to associate the language
format tag with the name:<*code*> tag, right?
But the *name:* tag doesn't include any special characters.

> Functionally both ideas work the same, right?
>
>
>
>
> * No, most of the advantages of my tagging concept depend on not having an
> aggregate name tag but tagging the individual names in different languages
> (like name:en, name:fr) separately and defining the locally preferred
> formatting independent of that.*
>
> *OK. I'm trying to set up the proposal so that this objective can still be
achieved in the long-term.*

Deprecating the default name=* tag will be controversal, so I don't think
it should be combined with this early stage.
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Warin]

On 16/09/18 01:37, Colin Smale wrote:


Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you are 
trying to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end up with, 
who is the target audience? What are the use cases? Is it an aid to 
interpreting and pronouncing the contents of the "name" tag? Is it a 
(strong) hint to mappers about how to synthesize multilingual labels? 
Is it documenting the official languages, or the popular spoken 
languages, or what?


Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political reasons, 
in practice large parts are essentially French-only. Composite street 
names can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest we work through Belgium 
as a case study, and when there is a proposal to suit Belgium, we then 
cross-check with e.g. Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?




If you want an extreme case then Papua New Guinea has over 820 
languages.. all in one country.

They have 3 official languages, usage varies depending on what you are.
Documenting them would also be a challenge.
The amount of work vs the people who will use the data?
For PNG I don't see the work = the benefit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papua_New_Guinea#Languages



On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Re: "How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible 
there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, 
unless you define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which 
AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM."
In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two 
languages neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a 
display order specification is necessary. That information is already 
in the default "name=*" tag
"Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, 
highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does 
everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?"

Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale > wrote:


On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the
single value to be used in the absence of an explicit value.
If you think you need multiple defaults, see my comment above
about different contexts."
The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be
displayed together as the default language setting, if so
desired. If you check out the Multilingual Names wiki page
,
there are places where people choose to standardize the
default name=* be a combination of two languages or two
encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in
Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in
Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the choice of
specifying two (or 3) languages, to fit with their current
preference.

How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible
there, whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order,
unless you define the list of languages to be an ordered list,
which AFAIK would be a new concept to OSM.

I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is
used, just trying to make it more useful by tagging what
language is actually being used in the value for the name
key. And I suspect there may be more communities that will
choose this option, to encourage displaying names both in the
local langauge and in the official or national language.

So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a
waste. Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia,
"name:language=nl" in Flanders, "name:language=de" in the
Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels?
Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or
does everything that can have a name need to fit in with this?
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 15 September 2018, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> please let us not use "complicated" characters, on some keyboards
> those aren't even indicated and you might need multifinger
> combinations to type them. If the key says "language format" I
> believe for the value we only have to define a separator. The strings
> between the separator will be "formats" and we'll not need curly
> braces to understand it (e.g. "de;fr" or "de+fr"). If you prefer, we
> could allow traling and leading spaces ("de + fr") for improved
> readability.

That is a very different idea and without knowing the supposed meaning 
of this list of language codes i am not really sure what to think of 
it.

The purpose of the format string is to allow documenting the locally 
preferred form to display names - which is exactly what the name tag is 
currently used for, just in a less transparent, less consistent and 
more difficult to maintain and to interpret form.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-09-15 18:22 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann :

>  The
> most common way to do that is to prefix symbols with a special
> character.  An alternative would be to enclose symbols in special
> characters (like braces, e.g. language_format={de} - {fr}).
>


please let us not use "complicated" characters, on some keyboards those
aren't even indicated and you might need multifinger combinations to type
them. If the key says "language format" I believe for the value we only
have to define a separator. The strings between the separator will be
"formats" and we'll not need curly braces to understand it (e.g. "de;fr" or
"de+fr"). If you prefer, we could allow traling and leading spaces ("de +
fr") for improved readability.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Saturday 15 September 2018, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> * the choice of suggesting tagging the language information on either
>
> > the administrative boundary relations or the individual features
> > but not on any other feature with a meaning beyond the feature
> > itself was not arbitrary.
>
> Are you objecting to the idea of tagging places as well as
> boundaries? What about the protected area / aboriginal lands
> boundaries?

I don't think any tagging concept where the language format tag of a 
feature other than an administrative boundary relation has a meaning 
beyond said feature has a chance to be acutally broadly interpreted by 
data users.

Once you start going down this road the interpretation will become very 
complicated for the data user and completely intransparent for the 
mapper and hence it would almost certainly fail to find acceptance.

> > * the choice of syntax for the language string is something that
> > can be discussed obviously.  You can essentially use any characters
> > that are unlikely to occur in an actual format as structuring
> > elements.  The dollar sign is a common symbol prefix here.
>
> OK, but is this necessary for it to work? Is a 3-letter ISO code
> sufficient?
> Would it be possible to put the language code in the key
> (language:=default) or is it better to stick to the value?

I am not quite sure what your suggestion is.  You would need to 
formulate a specific suggestion for me to determine if this would work.  
In general in a format string you need a way to distinguish between 
literal characters and characters indicating a symbol/variable.  The 
most common way to do that is to prefix symbols with a special 
character.  An alternative would be to enclose symbols in special 
characters (like braces, e.g. language_format={de} - {fr}).

> > * the core of my proposal is not using the plain "name" tag any
> > more for anything other than legacy fallback if other data is
> > missing.  Any proposal to separately tag the language of the name
> > tag ... is a very different idea.
>
> Functionally both ideas work the same, right?

No, most of the advantages of my tagging concept depend on not having an 
aggregate name tag but tagging the individual names in different 
languages (like name:en, name:fr) separately and defining the locally 
preferred formatting independent of that.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 108, Issue 71, languages & borders

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 4:23 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

>
>
> 2018-09-15 16:49 GMT+02:00 Joseph Eisenberg :
>
>> If the language of Schiermonnikoog is used to name the hills, streams,
>> streets and shops on the island, then it could be the default language for
>> that place.
>>
>
>
> the local language obviously will be used to name the surroundings, but it
> might not always have a script we can enter in our database. The
> information about spoken languages is valuable independent from determining
> the language used in the name tag.
>


If we're going to do this (for now I don't have a firm opinion either way)
then I suggest we give some thought as to
how we tag languages (and possibly scripts).  People have been implicitly
referring to the ISO 639-1 two-letter
language codes when they propose tags of the form language:xx=yes.  They're
not really adequate, which is why
ISO 639-2 three-letter languages codes where introduced.

But those were found to be inadequate in some applications, which is why
Internet RFCs have built on that.
Initially, to code for dialects: British and US English differ, and OSM
prefers en-GB as opposed to en-US.
Portuguese has two dialects: the one on Portugal and the one in Brazil.
Welsh has two (three, if you count the
small enclave of Welsh speakers in a village in Patagonia) and written
Welsh differs from the spoken dialects
in some ways.

The latest RFC to try and make sense of all this and provide a sensible
scheme is RFC 5646 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646  If you're not a
programmer, it's hard work trying to figure it all out, so first look at
the examples in
Appendix A https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5646#appendix-A to see what can
be done.

I'm not saying this proposal should adopt RFC 5646 (or even speaking in
favour of the proposal), just saying that
if it goes ahead we ought to at least take a look at what others have found
necessary when tagging languages.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Colin Smale]

Joseph, I have to admit I am getting a bit lost as to what you are
trying to define with this proposal. Whatever tagging we end up with,
who is the target audience? What are the use cases? Is it an aid to
interpreting and pronouncing the contents of the "name" tag? Is it a
(strong) hint to mappers about how to synthesize multilingual labels? Is
it documenting the official languages, or the popular spoken languages,
or what? 

Take Brussels for example. Officially bilingual for political reasons,
in practice large parts are essentially French-only. Composite street
names can be nl - fr or fr - nl. Can I suggest we work through Belgium
as a case study, and when there is a proposal to suit Belgium, we then
cross-check with e.g. Switzerland, Morocco, Spain or whatever?

On 2018-09-15 17:15, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> Re: "How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there, 
> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you define 
> the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new 
> concept to OSM." 
> 
> In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two languages 
> neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a display order 
> specification is necessary. That information is already in the default 
> "name=*" tag 
> 
> "Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=* 
> might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a name 
> need to fit in with this?" 
> 
> Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues 
> 
> On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale  wrote: 
> 
> On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: 
> 
> Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value to 
> be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need multiple 
> defaults, see my comment above about different contexts." 
> 
> The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed 
> together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out the 
> Multilingual Names wiki page [1], there are places where people choose to 
> standardize the default name=* be a combination of two languages or two 
> encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is 
> going to be adopted by the folks in Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the 
> choice of specifying two (or 3) languages, to fit with their current 
> preference.  
> 
> How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there, whereas 
> "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you define the list 
> of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a new concept to 
> OSM. 
> 
> I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just trying 
> to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being used in the 
> value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more communities that will 
> choose this option, to encourage displaying names both in the local langauge 
> and in the official or national language. 
> 
> So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste. Combine 
> this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in Flanders, 
> "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels? 
> 
> Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=* 
> might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a name 
> need to fit in with this? 
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[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names___
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

* the choice of suggesting tagging the language information on either
> the administrative boundary relations or the individual features but
> not on any other feature with a meaning beyond the feature itself was
> not arbitrary.
>

Are you objecting to the idea of tagging places as well as boundaries?
What about the protected area / aboriginal lands boundaries?

I was trying to avoid tagging individual POIs and features with
language:default=xxx, to reduce the workload on mappers.

Is it not yet feasible to associate nodes with the nearest place?


> * the choice of syntax for the language string is something that can be
> discussed obviously.  You can essentially use any characters that are
> unlikely to occur in an actual format as structuring elements.  The
> dollar sign is a common symbol prefix here.
>

OK, but is this necessary for it to work? Is a 3-letter ISO code
sufficient?
Would it be possible to put the language code in the key
(language:=default) or is it better to stick to the value?


> * the core of my proposal is not using the plain "name" tag any more for
> anything other than legacy fallback if other data is missing.  Any
> proposal to separately tag the language of the name tag ... is a very
> different idea.
>

Functionally both ideas work the same, right? In particular, tagging
specific POIs with language_format= or language_default= is
tagging the language of the default name, unless the two tags were added by
different mappers with opposing ideas.

I didn't want to bring up anything about deprecating the defaul name=* tags
or stopping rendering them.
That can be discussed sometime in the future if this proposal catches on.

TL:DR:
1) Do we really need that $ symbol?
2) Language code in value vs key?
3) Tagging settled places?
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 108, Issue 71, languages & borders

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-09-15 16:49 GMT+02:00 Joseph Eisenberg :

> If the language of Schiermonnikoog is used to name the hills, streams,
> streets and shops on the island, then it could be the default language for
> that place.
>


the local language obviously will be used to name the surroundings, but it
might not always have a script we can enter in our database. The
information about spoken languages is valuable independent from determining
the language used in the name tag.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: "How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
new concept to OSM."

In Brussels they would actually like to be able to display the two
languages neutrally, without a set display order. I don't think a display
order specification is necessary. That information is already in the
default "name=*" tag

"Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=*
might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a
name need to fit in with this?"

Not only streets. Everything with a name=* tag has the same issues

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:02 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value
> to be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need
> multiple defaults, see my comment above about different contexts."
>
> The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed
> together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out
> the Multilingual Names wiki page
> , there are
> places where people choose to standardize the default name=* be a
> combination of two languages or two encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or
> Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in
> Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the choice of specifying two (or 3)
> languages, to fit with their current preference.
>
>
> How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
> whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
> define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be a
> new concept to OSM.
>
>
> I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just
> trying to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being
> used in the value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more
> communities that will choose this option, to encourage displaying names
> both in the local langauge and in the official or national language.
>
> So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
> Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in
> Flanders, "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and "name:language=fr;nl"
> in Brussels?
>
> Is it intended to be only for street names? If so, highway:name:language=*
> might be required to make that clear. Or does everything that can have a
> name need to fit in with this?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 108, Issue 71, languages & borders

[Joseph Eisenberg]

The size or type of language is not important, if it can be expressed in
the database with a recognizable reference code

If the language of Schiermonnikoog is used to name the hills, streams,
streets and shops on the island, then it could be the default language for
that place. This decision should be made by the local community. If they
have already made a decision, demonstrated by putting up signs in the local
language, or getting offiicial government recognition, that could also be
verifiable. But if the people on Schiermonnikoog no longer use the local
language name shops, streets etc, then it would not be the default language
for names.

>From what I can tell, Skiermûntseagersk is considered a dialect of (West)
Frisian, which has an ISO code, but of course the folks there could make up
a new code and start using it for their particular dialect. I'd think it
would be more helpful to stick with the langauge code for Frisian, but
that's up to the local mappers to decide.

Re: whistling; I met the guy who first described a whistling mode of a
languague used for communication across fields, in southern Mexico. It
isn't really a complete language, but sort of a code that represents the
tones used in words, with a limited vocabulary. Anyway, that and sign
languages would be the two types of language that cannot be represented in
the OSM database or Unicode, as far as I know, so they could not be
assigned as the default language for a place; probably not an issue. :-)

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 11:31 PM St Niklaas  wrote:

> HI folks,
>
>
>
> What about a local language that is used on a small island
> (Schiermonnikoog) by a minor number (15) people ?
>
> Or a group of whistling guys living in the eastern European borders, that
> has no words just sounds to communicate over long distances ?
>
>
>
> Greetz
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Digest, Vol 108, Issue 71, languages & borders

[St Niklaas]

HI folks,



What about a local language that is used on a small island (Schiermonnikoog) by 
a minor number (15) people ?

Or a group of whistling guys living in the eastern European borders, that has 
no words just sounds to communicate over long distances ?



Greetz

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 14 September 2018, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> Christoph (@Imagico) has suggested tagging the official language
> information on administrative boundary relations:
> http://blog.imagico.de/you-name-it-on-representing-geographic-diversi
>ty-in-names/

A few remarks here regarding this:

* the choice of suggesting tagging the language information on either 
the administrative boundary relations or the individual features but 
not on any other feature with a meaning beyond the feature itself was 
not arbitrary.  Limiting this to a well defined data basis and simple 
rules (here:  individual feature tag and administrative unit as 
fallback, priority through admin_level) is a necessary prerequisite for 
any chance of practical use.  And if you look at what systematics are 
used for the name tags at the moment the vast majority of choices 
happens on administrative units with admin_level 2-4.

* the choice of tagging the locally preferred form of showing the names 
and not any culture specific classification into things 
like "official", "primary", "indigenous", "main" or "majority" was also 
deliberate because this seems to be the approach that least imposes a 
specific cultural understanding of languages onto people.

* keep in mind the very idea behind this proposal is that data users 
have the free choice to either use the language format information in 
the data as is or replace or modify it with any other information.  So 
any discussion along the lines of "i want to base the language format 
on some non-verifiably spatial division" is unnecessary because you 
obviously can always do that, you just can't have and maintain such 
data inside of the OSM database.

* the choice of syntax for the language string is something that can be 
discussed obviously.  You can essentially use any characters that are 
unlikely to occur in an actual format as structuring elements.  The 
dollar sign is a common symbol prefix here.

* the core of my proposal is not using the plain "name" tag any more for 
anything other than legacy fallback if other data is missing.  Any 
proposal to separately tag the language of the name tag (several 
initiatives in that direction have been made in the past) is a very 
different idea.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-09-15 15:18, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value to 
> be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need multiple 
> defaults, see my comment above about different contexts." 
> 
> The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed 
> together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out the 
> Multilingual Names wiki page [1], there are places where people choose to 
> standardize the default name=* be a combination of two languages or two 
> encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French in Moroco. If this is 
> going to be adopted by the folks in Belgium, Morocco etc, there should be the 
> choice of specifying two (or 3) languages, to fit with their current 
> preference.

How about "name:language_order=fr;nl"? No confusion possible there,
whereas "name:language=fr;nl" would not specify the order, unless you
define the list of languages to be an ordered list, which AFAIK would be
a new concept to OSM. 

> I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just trying 
> to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being used in the 
> value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more communities that will 
> choose this option, to encourage displaying names both in the local langauge 
> and in the official or national language.

So your idea is only for multilingual areas? Seems a bit of a waste.
Combine this with "name:language=fr" in Wallonia, "name:language=nl" in
Flanders, "name:language=de" in the Ostkantons, and
"name:language=fr;nl" in Brussels? 

Is it intended to be only for street names? If so,
highway:name:language=* might be required to make that clear. Or does
everything that can have a name need to fit in with this? 
  

Links:
--
[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names___
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Re: "A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value
to be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need
multiple defaults, see my comment above about different contexts."

The idea is to allow a community to choose 2 languages to be displayed
together as the default language setting, if so desired. If you check out
the Multilingual Names wiki page
, there are places
where people choose to standardize the default name=* be a combination of
two languages or two encodings; eg  fr + nl in Brussels, or Arabic + French
in Moroco. If this is going to be adopted by the folks in Belgium, Morocco
etc, there should be the choice of specifying two (or 3) languages, to fit
with their current preference.

I'm not trying to change the way the default name=* tag is used, just
trying to make it more useful by tagging what language is actually being
used in the value for the name key. And I suspect there may be more
communities that will choose this option, to encourage displaying names
both in the local langauge and in the official or national language.

Any thoughts about the best order? Should the language code be in the value
or in the key? As a mapper it doesn't make a difference to me, but I think
it matters to database users.

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 7:12 PM Colin Smale  wrote:

> On 2018-09-15 06:33, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> I like the word "default"; it doesn't make a value judgement or have
> positive / negative connotations. And it sounds like it has to do with how
> the database should function, which is the right idea. The most common
> language used for names should be the "default", whether or not it is
> official.
>
>
> As long as it is made explicit what the scope is for this default. We may
> need different default languages for different contexts. Interpreting
> name=* is one thing but it is a different concept to the locally spoken
> language(s), or the official language(s) for example.
>
>
> *language:default=* has the advantage of being searchable with a
> simple query like "language:default=*" in Taginfo, Overpass and JOSM. But
> it requires the use of semicolons to specify multiple default languages.
>
> A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value to be
> used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need multiple
> defaults, see my comment above about different contexts.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-09-15 06:33, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> I like the word "default"; it doesn't make a value judgement or have positive 
> / negative connotations. And it sounds like it has to do with how the 
> database should function, which is the right idea. The most common language 
> used for names should be the "default", whether or not it is official.

As long as it is made explicit what the scope is for this default. We
may need different default languages for different contexts.
Interpreting name=* is one thing but it is a different concept to the
locally spoken language(s), or the official language(s) for example. 

> _language:default=_ has the advantage of being searchable with a simple 
> query like "language:default=*" in Taginfo, Overpass and JOSM. But it 
> requires the use of semicolons to specify multiple default languages.

A default should not require multiple values! It is the single value to
be used in the absence of an explicit value. If you think you need
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Re: [Tagging] Why isn't the amenity=parking object part of the relation ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Sep 2018, at 11:00, OSMDoudou 
> <19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
> 
> Do you mean you use plain polygons, and let data consumer derive relation 
> observing the parking space polygon is situated within the geo boundaries of 
> an amenity parking polygon ?
> 
> Or do you mean you use multi-polygon relations. [1]


there is no difference, polygons or multipolygons are the same with regard to 
the question at hand. I don’t see the need for a grouping relation, neither by 
us nor by downstream data consumers, but you could certainly create them 
automatically from polygons and the things inside.
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15. Sep 2018, at 08:47, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> Graeme,
> Are aboriginal lands already in OSM as boundary relations? I believe there is 
> some debate about whether to use boundary=protected_area or 
> boundary=aboriginal_lands


it doesn’t matter, we don’t need boundaries, we need to agree on the tagging. 
If such boundaries exist in the real world we will have them sooner or later.


> Mapping individual setlements would be more challenging! I would leave 
> that to the local folks to add themselves,



As was stated earlier in this thread, all language related tagging should be 
done by local folks


Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Why isn't the amenity=parking object part of the relation ?

[OSMDoudou]

Do you mean you use plain polygons, and let data consumer derive relation 
observing the parking space polygon is situated within the geo boundaries of an 
amenity parking polygon ?

Or do you mean you use multi-polygon relations. [1]

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multipolygon 



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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Graeme,
Are aboriginal lands already in OSM as boundary relations? I believe there
is some debate about whether to use boundary=protected_area or
boundary=aboriginal_lands?
I know that many Reservations in the USA are still yet to be mapped, though
the data should be available from the government.
If we are primarily mapping defined boundary relations, it should be
feasible. Mapping individual setlements would be more challenging! I would
leave that to the local folks to add themselves, just as each community
decides what default name=* value will be used, and in what language.
Joseph

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 3:35 PM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 08:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I speak with a couple of people on other forums, one who manages the
>> stores in some of these communities in the Northern Territory & Western
>> Australia, & the other was Head Nurse in a local hospital, so I'll bounce
>> the question of them & report back.
>>
>
> The question that I posed:
>
> "What language/s are spoken in all the various communities?
>
> Primarily English / "Pidgin" (not sure if that's the right word for it)
> but their own "nations" language as well, the other way round or what ?
>
> & will this change, community to community "
>
> Responses from the people concerned
>
> "The language does change from locations such as the desert locations and
> here in Arnhem land. Interesting when we were in Peppimenarti, they spoke
> their language but with a mixture of English words and we could understsnd
> it.
>
> Around Arnhem land the lauguage is pretty much the same being Yolngu
> people. I think most indigenous would be able to understand most
> locations though with a few meanings that may be different.
>
> Here at x they will chat in their own language and I normally walk
> past, joke and say what did you call me and they would just laugh."
>
> &
>
> "Most Indigenous Australians learn English at school these days and speak
> their language at home and to each other when they're out and about. Some
> larger cities have ESL classes as well.
>
> The map in the link below was the screensaver on all of the monitors at my
> previous workplace. There's a bit of information in there, too, which you
> may find interesting. :)
>
> They also provided links to
> https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/articles/aiatsis-map-indigenous-australia,
> & https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_languages, which
> shows the sort of task you'd have in front of you! :-)
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Mapping language borders, tagging offical languages?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 15 Sep 2018 at 08:14, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> I speak with a couple of people on other forums, one who manages the
> stores in some of these communities in the Northern Territory & Western
> Australia, & the other was Head Nurse in a local hospital, so I'll bounce
> the question of them & report back.
>

The question that I posed:

"What language/s are spoken in all the various communities?

Primarily English / "Pidgin" (not sure if that's the right word for it) but
their own "nations" language as well, the other way round or what ?

& will this change, community to community "

Responses from the people concerned

"The language does change from locations such as the desert locations and
here in Arnhem land. Interesting when we were in Peppimenarti, they spoke
their language but with a mixture of English words and we could understsnd
it.

Around Arnhem land the lauguage is pretty much the same being Yolngu
people. I think most indigenous would be able to understand most locations
though with a few meanings that may be different.

Here at x they will chat in their own language and I normally walk
past, joke and say what did you call me and they would just laugh."

&

"Most Indigenous Australians learn English at school these days and speak
their language at home and to each other when they're out and about. Some
larger cities have ESL classes as well.

The map in the link below was the screensaver on all of the monitors at my
previous workplace. There's a bit of information in there, too, which you
may find interesting. :)

They also provided links to
https://aiatsis.gov.au/explore/articles/aiatsis-map-indigenous-australia, &
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Aboriginal_languages, which
shows the sort of task you'd have in front of you! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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