Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
That would be for the Australian mapping community to decide, to document and to implement. Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 11 aug. 2019 om 23:08 heeft Graeme Fitzpatrick het > volgende geschreven: > > > >> On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson wrote: >>> On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson wrote: >> >>> I'm sure the hierarchy >>> trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side >>> of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own >>> system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any >>> other country, or to make it the same all over the world. >> >> I largely agree. I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the >> advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki >> work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to >> work with. I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of >> it. > > So how do you go about setting country-specific values? > > In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road > to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them > with the importance that they are to local residents of that area. > > Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & > hoping that people read them? > > Thanks > > Graeme > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
In Spain we have big problems, discussions and arguments with that
question. Last month, a French user complained about the state of a
"Nacional" (Country Main Road) classified in OSM as trunk.
These problems have one main reason. Here in Spain, in some places, there
are six degrees of public administration: European Union, Estado (Country),
Comunidades Autónomas (state), Provincia (province), Comarca (like county),
Municipio (like town)...and fourth of them have competences and decisions
about that.
Also some Comunidades Autónomas make better investments and spend more
money in some zones than Country government (because Country government
prefers to do only motorways all over Spain) . But as for more people
Country government is the most important (or the only important government
for the country) the majority of roads that depends of that government are
"defacto" the most important: trunk.
This is a mess and a disaster because you have some trunk roads
(nacionales) that don't deserve this category: roads with less width than
normal for two lanes,level crossings for all kind of tracks, passing-by
little villages, horrible smoothness and with the same track as they were
created sixty or seventy years ago. Also you have good new 21st century
ways with only interlevel crossing, average speed of 80/100, big widths per
lane, but as they are from the government of the province ("Diputaciones")
or from the government of the "state" they are automatically primary ,
secondary or tertiary roads. This is not fair. Think about it: a government
will not spend its money in a road that is not really important.
Barcelona's Province Government manages about one thousand million euros
budget. So I assure you if Barcelona's Province Government wants to build
a new road in a well-populated area this road would be as good as primary
or trunk.
Some people in OSM Spain want other classification criteria (not
administrative but physical) to make more objective the road classification:
trunk: 4,3,2-lane new roads (newer than twenty years, with new track), with
only interlevel crossings and exits, average speed of 80/100, and wide
lanes. It is possible bikes or agricultural vehicles would be prohibited in
these kind of ways.
primary: 3,2-lane main roads, with crossings at the same level, average
speed of 60/80, and wide lanes. All traffic should be allowed.
secondary: 3,2-lane roads, connecting small territories, crossings at the
same level, always with road marks , average speed of 50/60, acceptable
width per lane.
tertiary : 2-1-lane roads, with reference, it is not necessary to have road
marks, average speed of minus than 50, it is not necessary to have the
width of 2cars.
We want also to use governments data like average speed and average daily
traffic (ADT) . Objective data should be consulted to take these decisions.
We want to take consideration of all "Country government roads" that have
big motorways near to make lower they category. In the reference we will
always have the administrative classification like N- Country C- State
L-Local and others like CV-V for the town. One road can be trunk at first
kilometers with good track, etc. and then when sharing track with the free
motorway can be tertiary.
We also aware Spain is not the same as Australia or Africa , we know
classification criteria cannot be the same due to physical conditions in
other countries. But some of them we want a real and objective ,
non-repetitive classification criteria (using letters of the reference and
the same classification in OSM is the same, talking administratively) for
tagging Spanish Roads in Openstreetmap.
Salut i carreteres (Health and roads)
yopaseopor
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM Paul Allen wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick
> wrote:
>
>>
>> In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!)
>> road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show
>> them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area.
>>
>
> There appear to be two schools of thought on this. One is that if it is
> the only road between A
> and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track.
> The other is to adopt
> a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably
> adhering to official
> classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road
> between A and B is a
> secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road.
>
> I favour the latter approach. If there is only one single-lane track
> between A and B then
> it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to
> be emphasised by
> a different colour. Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead
> some people
> planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way,
> including the
> final part of their trip from A to B.
>
> I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country
> you first check
> if
Re: [Tagging] tag templates in the wiki
On 12/08/19 09:05, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I believe this is incapacitating the wider community and creating a context where it becomes almost impossible for an ordinary mapper to make even a small modification to these parts in the wiki. I don't think making a change is a problem. The problem is tracking the history so you can see the evolution. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] tag templates in the wiki
12 Aug 2019, 01:05 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > Is it now unavoidable that the info box content on tag definition pages in > the wiki comes from the database? > It is avoidable, just specify values in the template. I just reverted edit that for some unexplained reason damaged wiki page. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:man_made%3Dbridge=104321=history ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] tag templates in the wiki
Is it now unavoidable that the info box content on tag definition pages in the wiki comes from the database? Is there consensus that the higher complexity to edit it is less important than the features we gain from it? E.g. here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dbridge I find it unfortunate that the edits to the tag db don’t show up in the page history for the tag definition page, so changes to these are much harder to spot and history becomes much more complex because you have to look at several sources (first of all you would have to be aware that there is a database from where this comes, then you must find it and get the history from there). I believe this is incapacitating the wider community and creating a context where it becomes almost impossible for an ordinary mapper to make even a small modification to these parts in the wiki. Cheers Martin sent from a phone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
On Sun, 11 Aug 2019 at 22:10, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) > road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show > them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area. > There appear to be two schools of thought on this. One is that if it is the only road between A and B then it is a primary road, even if it's a single-lane dirt track. The other is to adopt a consistent country (or state, or region) wide classification, preferably adhering to official classification if there is any, which might mean that the only road between A and B is a secondary, tertiary or even quaternary road. I favour the latter approach. If there is only one single-lane track between A and B then it is obviously of importance to those in the area without it needing to be emphasised by a different colour. Whereas rendering it as a primary road will mislead some people planning a cross-country trip into think it's paved highway all the way, including the final part of their trip from A to B. I suggest that before you decide which approach best suits your country you first check if there is a governmental classification scheme of highways. It appears that, for Australia, things are rather inconsistent across the states and territories and have changed over the years. Nevertheless, alphanumeric designations are now common amongst most states and territories and the meaning of those designations can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highways_in_Australia#Prefix_letters After examining that, then make your decision as to whether or not the OSM map ought to reflect official designations or do its own thing. And then discuss it in whatever forum Australian mappers use and see if you can get a consensus agreeing with you. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
On Mon, 12 Aug 2019 at 05:04, Paul Johnson wrote: > On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson > wrote: > >> I'm sure the hierarchy >> trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side >> of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own >> system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any >> other country, or to make it the same all over the world. >> > > I largely agree. I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the > advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki > work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers > to work with. I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end > of it. > So how do you go about setting country-specific values? In Australia, it's not uncommon for a Primary (& in some cases, Trunk!) road to be a single lane dirt road!, & it would be nice to be able to show them with the importance that they are to local residents of that area. Is it simply a matter of specifying road types under the "Australia" page & hoping that people read them? Thanks Graeme ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
On Sun, Aug 11, 2019 at 1:35 PM Peter Elderson wrote: > I'm sure the hierarchy > trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side > of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own > system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any > other country, or to make it the same all over the world. > I largely agree. I wouldn't mind country-specific values similar to the advantage that the UK has on this as previously stated, then let the wiki work out what counts as largely equivalent in character for the renderers to work with. I feel like that would help a lot on the front and back end of it. If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and to > highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider > mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list > could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to > getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers, > mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it. > Agreed, highway=road is great for "there's something here, but I don't know what it is". Amazon Logistics mappers would be wise to use this value more than trying to make a low quality or incorrect guess (and I hope they're reading this because they're really doing a number on driveways and parking lots in Oklahoma right now at a pace I can't keep up with, particularly with OSMCha having broken RSS feeds). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
I'm sure the hierarchy
trunk/primary/secondary/tertiary//residential with a side
of service types is general enough that all countries can map their own
system to it. I feel no need to force any country's own system upon any
other country, or to make it the same all over the world.
If mapping tools map "dunno" to highway=road and to
highway=unclassified, I would applaud that. If renderers would consider
mapping quaternary same as unclassified, I would applaud that. If this list
could reach consensus for this preferred tagging and some commitment to
getting it straight in a few OSM-significant countries, I'm sure renderers,
mapping tools and checking tools will consider implementing it.
Vr gr Peter Elderson
Op zo 11 aug. 2019 om 19:40 schreef Paul Johnson :
> On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg <
> joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
>> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
>> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
>> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
>> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
>> or another farm.
>>
>
> I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went
> approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country
> nuance than that.
>
> I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so
> that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open
> to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial,
> etc, that map nicely to the US. But, trying to remap the consensus to
> existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Classifying roads from Trunk to Tertiary and Unclassified
On Sat, Aug 10, 2019 at 3:26 AM Joseph Eisenberg
wrote:
> trunk - connects cities to cities ("National Roads")
> primary - connects a town to a city or another town
> secondary - connects a village to a town/city or another village
> tertiary - connects a hamlet to a village/town or another hamlet
> unclassified - connect farms / isolated dwellings to a hamlet/vilage
> or another farm.
>
I'm pretty sure NE2 already tried forcing this once and it went
approximately nowhere because it turns out there's more country-to-country
nuance than that.
I'm all for adding additional and country-specific tags for highway, so
that these British-specific ones can continue to work there and I'd be open
to, say, getting highway= values like freeway, expressway, urban_arterial,
etc, that map nicely to the US. But, trying to remap the consensus to
existing British-specific tag values is going to be a harder battle.
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