Re: [Tagging] theme it is for me then | Re: How to map Irish pubs?
On 10/14/2019 6:07 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
There are in some areas pubs that would merit a brand tag (maybe it is
generally common), they have the beer logo aside their name on the
sign, beer mats, menus, glasses , sunshades, everything can be branded
(it could happen they’re “recycling” material like glasses or beer
mats from a different brand, but usually you would get the beer on the
sign as draft beer). For example in Berlin, there are the infamous
“Schultheis-Eckkneipe”n
https://eckkneipen.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/zur_gemuetlichen_ecke_ansicht.jpg?w=614=410
or Berliner Kindl
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Eckkneipe_in_Berlin-Kreuzberg%2C_2009.jpg
these places do not change brand frequently, and verifiability in
Germany is typically quite good (means the signs are big ;) )
My understanding is that this was the original purpose of the "brewery"
key -- to specify the brewery associated with a particular
establishment. It's drifted from that purpose ("brewery=yes" is the most
popular value by an order of magnitude) but I still feel it's a better
fit for this purpose than "brand".
J
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Re: [Tagging] theme it is for me then | Re: How to map Irish pubs?
sent from a phone > On 14. Oct 2019, at 22:55, Rory McCann wrote: > > >MC: I would expect brand tag to be brand of pub (what AFAIK is rare), not > > list of brands of its inventory. > > I agree. `brand` is for (e.g.) `brand=Weatherspoons`. You could use > `sells:Guinness=yes` to record that something is sold. But that's not > always helpful, because (e.g.) there are many pubs in England that sell > Guinness and aren't “Irish pubs”, and Irish pubs which don't sell > Guinness (there's one in my city like that, but they will sell you a > “Black & Tan” ). There are in some areas pubs that would merit a brand tag (maybe it is generally common), they have the beer logo aside their name on the sign, beer mats, menus, glasses , sunshades, everything can be branded (it could happen they’re “recycling” material like glasses or beer mats from a different brand, but usually you would get the beer on the sign as draft beer). For example in Berlin, there are the infamous “Schultheis-Eckkneipe”n https://eckkneipen.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/zur_gemuetlichen_ecke_ansicht.jpg?w=614=410 or Berliner Kindl https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Eckkneipe_in_Berlin-Kreuzberg%2C_2009.jpg these places do not change brand frequently, and verifiability in Germany is typically quite good (means the signs are big ;) ) That’s part of the pubs, there are also the „modern“ ones that change the beer frequently and sell microbrewery stuff, and others that don’t put big beer brand signs for one or the other reason, but at least for a big part of the German pubs (and some restaurants) it would be easy to populate a brand tag, that’s not a big stretch compared to other uses of brand, and I don’t see a competing interpretation of brand in the pub context. On the other hand, if it were about available draft beer types, the brand approach would not be promising (but these may change, or not, according to the pub). Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
> On Oct 14, 2019, at 4:31 PM, Peter Elderson wrote: > > I imagine mtb maps showing all kinds of mtb-trails except The Big One that > everybody knows. If I were an MTB'ist, I would probably disxcard OSM as > unusable, because it doesn't even give the biggest MTB-route on the planet! To be clear, this is a grey area that the original post was not discussing. If a route is "famous", even if it is unsigned, then I think it deserves being in OSM. That "famous" bit crosses into "local knowledge". The route has a name everyone knows and uses. It isn't a nameless trace someone mapped for their personal use. The routes I map are official routes made up mostly of cycleways, with various crossings and detours where the cycleways cannot be constructed. The official route switches from cycleways on one side of the river to the other to avoid upcoming obstacles - the rider is asked to detour onto roads, sidewalks, pedestrian crossings, and other ways that are not dedicated cycleways - "detours" that are mapped (and usually signed) as the official route. This collection of ways - cycleways, sidewalks, marked ped crosswalks, unmarked cycleway crossings, and roads make up the larger route. I am more forgiving of the idea of marking MTB trails Because MTB routes are often the only trails through an area passable to bicycles. They probably include a lot of double-track "tracks" as well. But Cycling routes through a city or region for commuting/transportation are often chosen because they are designated from the myriad of roads and ways that one *could* cycle on, but this route was selected just for them because of affordances (dedicated ways, cycle Lanes, curb cuts, etc). Mapping every loop route you enjoy cycling for excersize in the mountains is treated as one of these transportation routes - deceiving users into thinking there is a route that is good for cyclists trying to cross the mountains, when it is actually a Narrow two lane trunk road with no shoulder and no sidewalk - and loops Back to where you started. They are not cyclways for transportation. I don't want regular cycle routes used for transportation confused with random routes made by hobbyists for their weekend training. The MTB route discussed sounds like it should at least be be considered in OSM as an MTB route - but that is for route=MTB people to discuss. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] theme it is for me then | Re: How to map Irish pubs?
On 09/10/2019 00:14, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > 8 Oct 2019, 23:43 by t4d...@gmail.com: >> This doesn't directly solve the problem, but you could use the >> brand tag and put in the Guinness and other drinks that are >> traditionally in an Irish pub if you knew their selection. > > I would expect brand tag to be brand of pub (what AFAIK is rare), not > list of brands of its inventory. I agree. `brand` is for (e.g.) `brand=Weatherspoons`. You could use `sells:Guinness=yes` to record that something is sold. But that's not always helpful, because (e.g.) there are many pubs in England that sell Guinness and aren't “Irish pubs”, and Irish pubs which don't sell Guinness (there's one in my city like that, but they will sell you a “Black & Tan” ). On 09.10.19 12:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > (well, unless you care for/can define the distinction between Irish > and British pubs) At a minimum they tend to self identify, having “Irish Pub” in the name. Or just go in and see if they have green white and orange flags (irish pub), or big ben, and queen elizabeth pictures (British). (Though there's a "British" pub in my city with murals of Irish revolutionary Wolfe Tone on the wall, so 路 ) On 09.10.19 00:20, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > Bit of an awkward one, but there are pub's in Northern & Inland > Australia that white people are NOT welcome in (& I'm absolutely > certain that the same thing, & reverse, applies in many places). Is > that something that we could / should list against OSM pubs? “Unwelcoming to $ETHNICY/$RACE” is too subjective for OSM, so doesn't belong in OSM. Plus with structural racism, you'd almost have to tag _every_ establishment as “Unfriendly to $MARGINALIZED_GROUP”. I tried to come up with a clear definition for LGBTQ venues ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:lgbtq ), and I think it's working, and there aren't many venues which are ambiguous. On 09.10.19 00:15, Dave Corley wrote: > My way would be to keep it as simple as possible and as logical aspossible> > in both tagging and structure.> Therefore > > amenity = pub > pub = irish > > or potentially even > > pub:theme = irish On 09.10.19 16:39, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > I asked about cycle cafés a while back (e.g. https://www.cafe-ventoux.cc) and > the consensus was also to use theme Simple is important. I do like `theme=irish`, being an adjective, rather than a subtag of "pub", potentially allowing other themed things (like themed cafe's here). ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Divided highways, and not so divided highways, one way or two
On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 01:43:41PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > Hi > > On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 10:59:53PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: > > > >> > I had a quick 10 Minute Look at Mapillary and i have found 10s of > >> > examples of separate way although no physical barrier. > >> > > >> It can be easily done for any kind of mistake. But this is speculation. These are not simple small side roads, these examples are large, primary traffic arteries and noone is able or willing to fix it for a decade? I wont fix them because i think they are perfect as they are. Isnt that an acceptable way of thinking that there are more mappers happy to map how they see fit? It happens everywhere. As long as there something which is utterly broken by the way we map why not be liberal and accept to not do it exactly by the rules. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de UTF-8 Test: The ran after a , but the ran away signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing
sent from a phone > On 14. Oct 2019, at 20:03, Markus wrote: > > It's a detail, but i think that leisure=sunbathing_area (or > leisure=sunbathing_place) were a more descriptive tag than > leisure=sunbathing. Besides, most leisure=* values are nouns. I agree with sunbathing_area being a better value for leisure, although the word „sunbathing“ can also be used as a noun. I would personally find a property sunbathing=yes/no to be applied to other areas (which can have different purposes) more useful. Ciao Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing
On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 19:21, Dave F via Tagging wrote: > > You'd be better off tagging places where sunbathing is explicitly > banned. Much more quantifiable, Much more likely to be designated with a > sign. > +0.5 Explicit signage or published regulations permitting or prohibiting. Anything else is unverifiable guesswork. -- Paul ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing
Better to drop it. it's too vague/general. All the examples in this list are leisure places (Beach, lido, park) at which sunbathing is just one of many assumed activities. Swimming, kicking a ball about, throwing a frisbee etc.There's no requirement to explicitly tag it. You'd be better off tagging places where sunbathing is explicitly banned. Much more quantifiable, Much more likely to be designated with a sign. DaveF On 14/10/2019 16:49, Vɑdɪm wrote: OK. Any more comments or we better go for a vote? -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing
On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 at 17:51, Vɑdɪm wrote: > > OK. Any more comments or we better go for a vote? It's a detail, but i think that leisure=sunbathing_area (or leisure=sunbathing_place) were a more descriptive tag than leisure=sunbathing. Besides, most leisure=* values are nouns. Regards Markus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - sunbathing
OK. Any more comments or we better go for a vote? -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Utility markers
Le dim. 13 oct. 2019 à 20:45, Markus a écrit :
>
> It was a visual edit that added the tags to the {{vote}}
> template, thus disabling the template. I've fixed it by removing the
> tags.
>
That's right, and I didn't noticed that immediatly.
Thank you for the fix
François
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Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
On 14/10/2019 14:50, Dave F via Tagging wrote: PS Can anyone explain what an " academic member" is? Just found out it was a spell-correct typo. Volker is an ACA member DaveF ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
On 14/10/2019 00:17, Warin wrote: On 14/10/19 07:26, Volker Schmidt wrote: (disclosure: I am academic member, but express my personal view) The Great Divide route is, to my knowledge, not signposted. The source for thr route is most likely either a GPX track from ACA or a map set from ACA, which has their copyright on it. aca sells the GPX track and the map. For these reasons I think the Great Divide should no be in OSM. Say I used a copyright map to travel somewhere. During that trip I generate a GPX track. Should I not then have the right to use that generated GPX track to map things in OSM??? +1 Do it all the time using current UK OS maps. PS Can anyone explain what an " academic member" is? DaveF ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
brad wrote: > There are several variations and gpx tracks available on the net for > the great divide route. There are also many websites which > discuss the route and show maps. It's in the public domain. It is only "public domain" (US usage) if the creators have disclaimed all copyright in it, or if it's not eligible for copyright protection. I'm not aware of the Adventure Cycling Association doing the former, or any US case law for the latter. (But my knowledge of US case law is very imperfect, so if you could point to either, that'd be helpful!) "It's on lots of websites" does not mean something is free of copyright. There are plenty of places where you can download cracked versions of Adobe Photoshop but I'm pretty sure that's still copyrighted. :) Richard -- Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of rendering for waterway=wadi
> Intermittent is being used with the key seasonal=*.
> I think you may find the increase in use of intermittent may be from this
> dual tagging.
> I could say tagging for the render.
That's not likely if Openstreetmap-carto is the renderer in question,
because all common values of seasonal=* are treated the same as
intermittent=yes. The SQL is:
"CASE WHEN tags->'intermittent' IN ('yes')
OR tags->'seasonal' IN ('yes', 'spring', 'summer',
'autumn', 'winter', 'wet_season', 'dry_season')
THEN 'yes' ELSE 'no' END AS int_intermittent,
(See
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/ea73a44105ad1c3a0ebff817d4a8e9ea9233124b/project.mml#L212)
That means that intermittent=yes is currently rendered the same as
seasonal=yes or seasonal=wet_season and so on.
- Joseph
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Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
I compare it with the Via Francigena in Italy. That route is very well signposted, but even if it were not, you would see signs of its existence and importance in road names, milestones, names and signs of dwellings and café's along the way. There are self-registration points on the way, resting places with a pilgrim sign. And yes, all the locals know it and will point you to it. You'll get complete local history lectures with it, which I would not record in OSM though :) . Vr gr Peter Elderson Op ma 14 okt. 2019 om 09:38 schreef Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>: > On 14/10/19 18:28, Peter Elderson wrote: > > brad: > >> There are several variations and gpx tracks available on the net for the >> great divide route. There are also many websites which discuss the route >> and show maps. It's in the public domain. >> >> > I've looked at the info for the Great Divide MTB-trail without any prior > knowledge. > On the one hand I think, if there's nothing on de ground don't map it. > On the other hand, if it's a fixed and well kept trail known to all, I > imagine mtb maps showing all kinds of mtb-trails except The Big One that > everybody knows. If I were an MTB'ist, I would probably disxcard OSM as > unusable, because it doesn't even give the biggest MTB-route on the planet! > > > If you ask local where it is a fair proportion would direct you to it? > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of rendering for waterway=wadi
> If it is a valley, wouldn’t there be water at some time, even if very rarely? Off the top of my head, there are at least 3 types of valleys that never contain running water: 1) Valleys in karst formations, where all surface water disappears into cracks or holes in the limestone and flows underground. There are several moderately large valleys like this near me, where there is no visible surface watercourse, even though my area receives over 200cm of rain a year. 2) Valleys in cold climates where the temperature never is above 0 degrees. There are a number of dry valleys in Antartica like this, as well as in some high-elevation Alpine areas. 3) Valleys in very dry climates, where there is never sufficient rain for surface flow of water. The deserts in southern Peru and northern Chile are like this. Many small valleys there are formed by wind or motion of fault lines or plate tectonics, not by flowing water. (In most dialects of Arabic, the word "wadi" وَادِي means "valley", not necessarily a dry watercourse as in English.) On 10/14/19, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 14. Oct 2019, at 08:58, Joseph Eisenberg >> wrote: >> >> As discussed back in January 2015, the tag waterway=wadi is ambiguous, >> because it is was used both for dry valleys and for intermittent >> waterways > > > can you explain the difference between a dry valley and an intermittent one? > If it is a valley, wouldn’t there be water at some time, even if very > rarely? > > Ciao Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
On 14/10/19 18:28, Peter Elderson wrote: brad: There are several variations and gpx tracks available on the net for the great divide route. There are also many websites which discuss the route and show maps. It's in the public domain. I've looked at the info for the Great Divide MTB-trail without any prior knowledge. On the one hand I think, if there's nothing on de ground don't map it. On the other hand, if it's a fixed and well kept trail known to all, I imagine mtb maps showing all kinds of mtb-trails except The Big One that everybody knows. If I were an MTB'ist, I would probably disxcard OSM as unusable, because it doesn't even give the biggest MTB-route on the planet! If you ask local where it is a fair proportion would direct you to it? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of rendering for waterway=wadi
On 14/10/19 17:58, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: It is proposed to remove the rendering of waterway=wadi from Openstreetmap-carto, the style used in the "Standard" layer on openstreetmap.org - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3931 As discussed back in January 2015, the tag waterway=wadi is ambiguous, because it is was used both for dry valleys and for intermittent waterways. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/thread.html http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi has been listed as deprecated since then.It is recommended to use waterway=river/waterway=stream + intermittent=yes for waterways, natural=valley for valleys. Since that time the usage of waterway=wadi has dropped from 18,000 to 6,000, while intermittent=yes + waterway has increased from less than 800k to over 2 million now. Intermittent is being used with the key seasonal=*. I think you may find the increase in use of intermittent may be from this dual tagging. I could say tagging for the render. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cycling relation misuse
brad: > There are several variations and gpx tracks available on the net for the > great divide route. There are also many websites which discuss the route > and show maps. It's in the public domain. > > I've looked at the info for the Great Divide MTB-trail without any prior knowledge. On the one hand I think, if there's nothing on de ground don't map it. On the other hand, if it's a fixed and well kept trail known to all, I imagine mtb maps showing all kinds of mtb-trails except The Big One that everybody knows. If I were an MTB'ist, I would probably disxcard OSM as unusable, because it doesn't even give the biggest MTB-route on the planet! I would hope that there are some things along the track dedicated to the route. A "start here" sign, parking space for starting a section, arrangement of stones, sticks, adaptations e.g. to make a crossing possible, anything that shows it's a route. I can't imagine there are no visible signs of a trail at all. Then that would be my excuse to map it! > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Removal of rendering for waterway=wadi
sent from a phone > On 14. Oct 2019, at 08:58, Joseph Eisenberg > wrote: > > As discussed back in January 2015, the tag waterway=wadi is ambiguous, > because it is was used both for dry valleys and for intermittent > waterways can you explain the difference between a dry valley and an intermittent one? If it is a valley, wouldn’t there be water at some time, even if very rarely? Ciao Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Removal of rendering for waterway=wadi
It is proposed to remove the rendering of waterway=wadi from Openstreetmap-carto, the style used in the "Standard" layer on openstreetmap.org - see https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3931 As discussed back in January 2015, the tag waterway=wadi is ambiguous, because it is was used both for dry valleys and for intermittent waterways. See https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-January/thread.html http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Dwadi has been listed as deprecated since then.It is recommended to use waterway=river/waterway=stream + intermittent=yes for waterways, natural=valley for valleys. Since that time the usage of waterway=wadi has dropped from 18,000 to 6,000, while intermittent=yes + waterway has increased from less than 800k to over 2 million now. Please comment on https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3931 if there are any problems with dropping this tag. Also consider checking your areas for features that might be more clearly tagged with natural=valley or waterway=stream/river + intermittent (usually this takes local knowledge of the area, so it is not recommended to retag features which you have not visited in person). - Joseph Eisenberg ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
