Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

[Florimond Berthoux]

My point is : don't merge features in the same tag !
That makes thing more difficult to tag and more difficult to consume.
Indonesia is big but world is bigger, and I'm pretty sure we can find
examples where different kind of vehicles shares the same taxi spot.

(You can use any british word for that taxi spot tag I don't mind).


Le ven. 21 févr. 2020 à 08:32, Joseph Eisenberg 
a écrit :

> >  In Paris there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and
> parking shared between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
>
> Unlike parking spaces, a motorcycle taxi stand is never shared between
> motorcycles and cabs or tricycles here in Indonesia, since each type
> of vehicle has different characteristics: speed, capacity, distance
> that can be traveled. The markets and the prices are different.
>
> Often a market or train station will have 3 stands for 3 types of
> hired vehicles (motorcycles, taxicabs, and pedicabs/tricycles), with
> each at a separate corner, or on different sides of the street.
>
> > amenity=taxi
> > taxi:motorcycle=yes
> > taxi:car=yes
> > taxi:tricycle=yes
>
> This is discussed in the proposal page:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi#Why_not_use_amenity.3Dtaxi.3F
>
> While some have proposed using {{tag|amenity|taxi}} plus the
> additional tags {{tag|motorcar|no}} + {{tag|motorcycle|yes}} for
> motorcycle taxi stands, this has several disadvanages:
> 1) It would imply that a taxicab and a hired motorcyle "ojek" are the
> same feature.
> 2) it requires using 3 tags instead of one.
> 3) If only amenity=taxi is tagged, it would now become ambiguous: is
> this actually a taxicab stand, or might it be a motorcycle stand which
> is missing a tag?
> 4) It will confusing for travelers who generally expect a "taxicab" to
> be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying at least 4 passengers and
> their luggage. This is quite different than a motorcycle which can
> only carry one passenger with a small amount of baggage.
> 5) Many database users currently interpret {{tag|amenity|taxi}} as a
> motorcar taxicab via use of a standard "taxi" icon such as
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Taxi_Icon.png - this would be
> broken by such a change.
> 6) Motorcyles have different abilities: In contrast to a family or
> group which needs a 4 to 6 seat taxicab, single travelers may strongly
> prefer to hire motorcycles when available, due to their lower cost and
> ability to fit through smaller spaces in congested cities and rural
> areas with narrow roads and paths. Motorcar taxicabs with 4 wheels in
> 2 tracks cannot access {{tag|highway|path}} features and narrow roads,
> but motorcycles may be permitted and feasible due to their narrow
> width and single track.
>
> So a different tag is proposed to avoid confusion and more precisely
> tag these features.
>
>
>
> On 2/21/20, Florimond Berthoux  wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm always suspicious about tags with underscore in it, because they
> often
> > mix different features together.
> > My examples are parking, bicycle_parking, motorcycle_parking. In Paris
> > there are parking shared between bicycle and motorcycle, and parking
> shared
> > between bicycle and dock less vehicles (scooters).
> > Creating a new key for each combination would be awful.
> >
> > So I prefer to split the amenity "you can pay someone there to have a
> ride"
> > and what kind of vehicles you can find there.
> > That could looks like this:
> > amenity=taxi
> > taxi:motorcycle=yes
> > taxi:car=yes
> > taxi:tricycle=yes
> > ...
> >
> > (or other more British words ;)
> >
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 08:50, Joseph Eisenberg
> > 
> > a écrit :
> >
> >> I would like to formally request comments on the proposal for
> >> amenity=motorcycle_taxi:
> >>
> >> "A place where motorcycle taxis wait for passengers"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dmotorcycle_taxi
> >>
> >> In many countries, motorcycles for hire are much more common than
> >> automobile taxis.
> >>
> >> In these places, motorcycle drivers wait at stands, often with a small
> >> shelter, and they can be hired to take one or more passengers to
> >> various destinations. A fare is paid for a one-way trip. The passenger
> >> usually rides behind the driver. In some countries two or even three
> >> passengers can be carried on one motorcycle "taxi".
> >>
> >> Motorcycle taxis are also known as "motos" or "bike taxi", or by other
> >> local names, such as "ojek" here in Indonesia and in Singapore,
> >> "boda-boda" in Uganda, and "okada" in Nigeria.
> >>
> >> While some have proposed using amenity=taxi plus additional tags for
> >> motorcycle taxi stands, this is quite confusing for travelers who
> >> generally expect a "taxi" to be 4-wheeled motorcar capable of carrying
> >> 4 people and luggage. So a different tag is proposed to avoid
> >> confusion and more precisely tag these features.
> >>
> >> - Joseph Eisenberg
> 

Re: [Tagging] Tagging venues which give away free condoms?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 21. Feb 2020, at 13:32, Florimond Berthoux  
> wrote:
> 
> condom=yes
> condom:fee=no
> 
> (condom is available here)
> (free condom, yeah!)


too few semantics in condom=*

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging venues which give away free condoms?

[marc marc]

or in stead of a full list of =yes
do the same as with vending=product1;product2
with a key like giving=* offering=*

Le 21.02.20 à 13:30, Florimond Berthoux a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> condom=yes
> condom:fee=no
> 
> (condom is available here)
> (free condom, yeah!)
> 
> As I suggested in the free drinking_water thread, fee is already used a
> lot and has its wiki page.
> 
> 
> Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 21:45, Rory McCann  > a écrit :
> 
> Hello fellow tagging fans,
> 
> 
> Some places give away free condoms to fight the spread of STDs (incl.
> HIV/AIDS). Is there a good way to map that in OSM?
> 
> I suggest `free:condoms=yes/no`, since it's descriptive, matches the
> `sells:X=yes/no` scheme. And the `vending:X=yes/no` scheme.
> `vending:condoms=yes/no` has 17 uses, but `vending=condoms` has 1800
> uses. "vending" implies a _machine_. But what I imagine is a place with
> a pile of free condoms ready to take. Either bars, or sexual health
> clinics might have this.
> 
> `free=condoms` doesn't read as obvious as `Free Condoms? Yes!"
> (`free:condoms=yes`). A tagging scheme which data consumers can easy
> "deduce" when a human reads the text is a good tagging scheme IMO.
> 
> There is `medical_service:condom_distribution=yes/no` with 94 uses,
> which reads too medical. A nighclub with a bowl of free condoms doesn't
> seem like a "medical service", and doesn't sound like a "distribution
> centre".
> 
> Clearly if the `free:condoms` tag is missing, you should presume it's
> the same a `free:condoms=no`.
> 
> Any feedback? Thoughts? (Hopes? Fears? Dreams? )
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rory
> 
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> 
> 
> -- 
> Florimond Berthoux
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging venues which give away free condoms?

[Florimond Berthoux]

Hi,

condom=yes
condom:fee=no

(condom is available here)
(free condom, yeah!)

As I suggested in the free drinking_water thread, fee is already used a lot
and has its wiki page.


Le jeu. 20 févr. 2020 à 21:45, Rory McCann  a écrit :

> Hello fellow tagging fans,
>
>
> Some places give away free condoms to fight the spread of STDs (incl.
> HIV/AIDS). Is there a good way to map that in OSM?
>
> I suggest `free:condoms=yes/no`, since it's descriptive, matches the
> `sells:X=yes/no` scheme. And the `vending:X=yes/no` scheme.
> `vending:condoms=yes/no` has 17 uses, but `vending=condoms` has 1800
> uses. "vending" implies a _machine_. But what I imagine is a place with
> a pile of free condoms ready to take. Either bars, or sexual health
> clinics might have this.
>
> `free=condoms` doesn't read as obvious as `Free Condoms? Yes!"
> (`free:condoms=yes`). A tagging scheme which data consumers can easy
> "deduce" when a human reads the text is a good tagging scheme IMO.
>
> There is `medical_service:condom_distribution=yes/no` with 94 uses,
> which reads too medical. A nighclub with a bowl of free condoms doesn't
> seem like a "medical service", and doesn't sound like a "distribution
> centre".
>
> Clearly if the `free:condoms` tag is missing, you should presume it's
> the same a `free:condoms=no`.
>
> Any feedback? Thoughts? (Hopes? Fears? Dreams? )
>
>
> --
> Rory
>
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-- 
Florimond Berthoux
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Re: [Tagging] key:drinking_water for OSM ways

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 21. Feb. 2020 um 07:13 Uhr schrieb European Water Project <
europeanwaterproj...@gmail.com>:

> Hi Martin,
>
> There are a couple of issues I see with drinking_water=yes not having a
> concept of access.
>
> 1. Where is the observability  ? How can I know if a water tank has
> drinking quality water or just agriculture quality water ?
>


indeed, if you cannot access the water it may also not verifiable to know
whether it is drinkable, hence you will not add the tag.
We will not end with all drinking water on earth having this tag. It is
just a property for those places where a mapper identifies drinkable water
and sees a point in adding it to the map.




> 2.   But there is an even bigger issue --- and I will admit that I am
> biased because of the European Water Project's use case.
> For a map feature to be useful, it should have universality. Ie. if one
> maps restaurants with toilets, at least customers should have access ...
>
Someone who goes to the OSM way where there is a water tank, even with a
> wallet full of cash, will die of thirst before getting a drink.
>


I don't know, I would expect going to another person, preferably, and ask
for water. It completely depends on the context. If you are in a remote
area (otherwise you would likely not die of thirst anyway) and risking to
die of thirst you will likely drink any available water, regardless of its
OSM tagging. There is also no guarantee that an object which has
drinking_water=yes in OSM is actually drinking water, and even if it was at
the time of tagging the situation may have changed.



> It's similar to toilet=yes ...   A restaurant with a toilet for employees
> only, probably shouldn't have the tag.
> Yes, there is an access tag, but in most cases access is implied.
>


access is implied for amenity=toilet, like it is implied for
amenity=drinking_water (feature), while it is not implied for descriptive
properties (like drinking_water=yes). It is the main tag (feature tag) that
may have implications about accessibility.



> drinking_water = yes, seems to come with access in 99% of the 61,300 nodes
> and the large majority of the 8,178 ways.
>


yes, because people will usually not map drinking water=* for private
features I guess. A water tank may be an exception. I do not know public
water tanks, and while I guess somewhere they might exist, it would be up
to people knowing this situation to decide on appropriate tagging. As I
also wrote in my comment above: accessibility can be either explicit or
implicit through the providing feature, but it is not implied in the
drinking_water=yes property.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:amenity=motorcycle_taxi

[Joseph Eisenberg]

On 2/21/20, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>  in the Philippines, tricycles/pedicabs are never used for long-distance 
> travel
> and are usually used for the "last-mile" travel typically to get to a
> particular house from a main highway (or to get from the house to the
> highway). These tricycles/pedicabs usually have "service areas" (often a
> gated subdivision, or a village, or a close cluster of hamlets) and they
> only provide transportation within that area and cannot bring you anywhere
> unlike regular taxis.

Ojek (motorcycle taxis) in Indonesia are mostly used for the last
kilometer trips from major highways into neighborhoods, as you
mention, especially in towns and cities where there are minibuses
along major roads. But you may hire them to take you across town, if
you can afford paying a few dollars more than the bus fare and are in
a hurry. (Hopefully it won't rain).

In remote areas, where there are no public buses, it is possible to
hire an ojek for a 10 or 20 kilometer ride up to a village. Sometimes
the road is more of a path, only passable by 2-wheeled vehicles, so a
taxicab would not be possible.

- Joseph Eisenberg

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