Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting, - (Chapel of rest)

[ET Commands]

Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2020 23:25:43 +
From: Paul Allen 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting
- (Chapel of rest)

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 23:20, Peter Elderson  wrote:


place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?


I could live with that.

--
Paul




I would prefer something a little more specific.  There are all kinds of reasons for mourning, 
death is just one.  What we're after is a place for mourning the deceased.  So 
"place_for_mourning_the_deceased" might be more accurate, if somewhat wordy.  BTW, this 
discussion sounds like it's describing what is commonly called in the U. S. a "funeral 
home."


Mark


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a threshing floor

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 5. Nov 2020, at 00:13, António Madeira via Tagging 
>  wrote:
> 
> In Portugal and all Mediterranean countries, there are thousands of thresing 
> floors. Most of them are not used anymore, of course, but they are still 
> preserved and are private spaces used for many purposes. I myself have one.
> I see there's a reference to this feature in this wiki page, but wouldn't it 
> fit better in the man_made tag? After all, this is still an used feature, 
> although not always with the original intent.


I agree that man_made can equally fit, and these could probably still be used 
if you wished.
By the way, wouldn’t it make more sense to have 2 kind of tags for  these, 
inside a building or a platform outside?

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Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 4. Nov 2020, at 23:30, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
>> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative "mourning 
>> room"


seems offensive to people who keep their deads outside? You can always have a 
broader look and ask for more inclusiveness. If we find a less specific term 
which we can agree on and which is sufficiently specific for our needs, even 
better (would be interesting to hear a few voices with  different cultural 
backgrounds than christian, e.g. India, are there “indoor mourning spaces”?).


> Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one room
> for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.


+1


>> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing 
>> /Visitation Service',
> 
> "amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
> "amenity=mourning_room."


and it isn’t referring to a place, it’s referring to a service 


>> 
>> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian 
>> religion.
>> It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for 
>> having 
>> Christianity as a cultural background. 
> 
> 
> Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
> using British English to the language of a country which has no
> religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
> such a country but why should that stop us?


the argument could have been made with less polemics, but I agree with the 
baseline: we could have religion specific “main” tags for these specific 
features where we don’t even know whether they equally exist in different 
religions, and how they are called. At some point we must use the words that we 
have to describe the world that we know. If we can get input from other 
cultures and if it seems there are similar places and “chapel” could be seen as 
unsuitable, we can adjust it, or more likely add a new specific term for their 
places, but the discussion has been going on over a longer period of time and 
nobody from a different background has contributed AFAIR.



> I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.


IMHO the tag should refer to an (enclosed?) space, “mourning” is an activity.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access

[Andrew Harvey]

I wouldn't do that because then logically you have two features, but in
this case they are one in the same, it's a rideshare pickup parking lot, as
opposed to a on-street section designated for rideshare pickup/dropoff.

On Thu, 5 Nov 2020 at 09:38, Simon Poole  wrote:

> While I would try to avoid it, you can naturally simply duplicate the
> geometry (and you don't even need to duplicate the nodes to do that).
> Am 04.11.2020 um 22:26 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:10, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 07:26 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 23:14, Simon Poole  wrote:
>>
>> We don't seem to have a tagging currently for dedicated pickup locations
>> in this kind of context, bus stops etc are naturally taggable), if
>> considered really useful I don't see why we couldn't introduce a
>> amenity=...pickup... tag.
>>
>>
>> But if such a dedicated pickup location is a carpark then it needs
>> amenity=parking, so it can't fit into the amenity key.
>>
>>
>> A pickup point will be a node within a car park area.
>>
>> Its is already common to add amenity=bicycle_parking nodes within
>> amenity=car_park areas.
>>
>
> Why would it be a node within a car park? For example
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/366754575 is the designated airport
> Uber, etc. pickup location, not some point inside the car park, but the
> whole car park itself.
>
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Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 23:20, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?
>

I could live with that.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Brian M. Sperlongano]

Perhaps deceased_viewing then?  If that's the actual amenity that we are
describing?

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 6:20 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?
>
> One could argue that this misses the point, because it's about viewing the
> deceased and you can mourn anywhere. Then again, you can worship anywhere,
> but in these special places the worshipped entity is usually represented
> and highlighted by objects and decorations, and often actually presumed
> present. The deceased may also be just represented.
>
>
> Peter Elderson
>
>
> Op wo 4 nov. 2020 om 23:30 schreef Paul Allen :
>
>> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:50, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
>>
>>> I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the
>>> arguments against it even here in the tagging list discussions.
>>>
>>
>> The proposal itself contains paragraphs indicating it is a work in
>> progress
>> rather than a finished proposal.  I would have commented but the wiki
>> is using a black-hole service that has blocked a large chunk of
>> addresses belonging to my mobile network because some open
>> proxies were detected.  This is not really ideal for a mobile
>> service where IP addresses are very volatile.
>>
>>>
>>> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative
>>> "mourning room"
>>>
>>
>> Not in current use in British English.  And even when it was used, it
>> generally referred to the room in a house that we now call the
>> "living room."  See
>> https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html
>> Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one
>> room
>> for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.
>>
>> * Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for
>>> being religiously connotated"
>>>
>>
>> He was correct.  But it's rare for a proposal to get unanimous approval.
>>
>>>
>>> * Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room,
>>> funeral chapel, funeral room.
>>> Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"
>>>
>>
>> As I understand it, English (British, American or any other variety) is
>> not
>> Peter's first language.
>>
>>>
>>> * Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a
>>> marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.
>>>
>>
>> What something "sounds like" to an individual is not a strong determinant
>> of
>> its propriety.
>>
>>>
>>> * Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK
>>> specific term.
>>
>>
>> It's what they're known as in my part of the UK.  So still contemporary
>> in at least
>> parts of the UK.
>>
>>
>>> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as
>>> 'Viewing /Visitation Service',
>>>
>>
>> "amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
>> "amenity=mourning_room."  It's not a term I've encountered, anyway.
>>
>>
>>> * 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the
>>> goat to the butcher...
>>>
>>
>> That sentence no sense makes.
>>
>>
>>> * 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make
>>> it as easy as possible for non-native English users.
>>>
>>
>> That is why editors have translations of their presets.
>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to
>>> christian religion.
>>
>> It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for
>>> having
>>>
>> Christianity as a cultural background.
>>>
>>
>> Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
>> using British English to the language of a country which has no
>> religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
>> such a country but why should that stop us?
>>
>> "Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology,
>>> butmight be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking
>>> or pilgrim route.
>>
>>
>> Except that the correct name for such a chapel is "chapel of ease" not
>> "chapel of rest."
>>
>>
>>> OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance
>>> when
>>>
>> a bunch of old white males (such as myself) chose a biased term for a
>>> feature
>>>
>> that naturally exists in other cultural/religious contexts as well.
>>
>>
>> Do other religions have such places?  If so, what do they call them?  And
>> can we then abstract a neutral name from that?
>>
>>
>>> To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral
>>> alternative from my perspective, reflecting the process of mourning which I
>>> suppose exists in all cultures.
>>>
>>
>> I object to room being applied to a building which may have many such
>> rooms.
>> I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.
>>
>> --
>> Paul
>>
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Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Peter Elderson]

place_of_mourning then? Just like place_of_worship?

One could argue that this misses the point, because it's about viewing the
deceased and you can mourn anywhere. Then again, you can worship anywhere,
but in these special places the worshipped entity is usually represented
and highlighted by objects and decorations, and often actually presumed
present. The deceased may also be just represented.


Peter Elderson


Op wo 4 nov. 2020 om 23:30 schreef Paul Allen :

> On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:50, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:
>
>> I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the arguments
>> against it even here in the tagging list discussions.
>>
>
> The proposal itself contains paragraphs indicating it is a work in progress
> rather than a finished proposal.  I would have commented but the wiki
> is using a black-hole service that has blocked a large chunk of
> addresses belonging to my mobile network because some open
> proxies were detected.  This is not really ideal for a mobile
> service where IP addresses are very volatile.
>
>>
>> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative
>> "mourning room"
>>
>
> Not in current use in British English.  And even when it was used, it
> generally referred to the room in a house that we now call the
> "living room."  See
> https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html
> Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one
> room
> for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.
>
> * Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for
>> being religiously connotated"
>>
>
> He was correct.  But it's rare for a proposal to get unanimous approval.
>
>>
>> * Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room,
>> funeral chapel, funeral room.
>> Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"
>>
>
> As I understand it, English (British, American or any other variety) is not
> Peter's first language.
>
>>
>> * Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a
>> marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.
>>
>
> What something "sounds like" to an individual is not a strong determinant
> of
> its propriety.
>
>>
>> * Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK
>> specific term.
>
>
> It's what they're known as in my part of the UK.  So still contemporary in
> at least
> parts of the UK.
>
>
>> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as
>> 'Viewing /Visitation Service',
>>
>
> "amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
> "amenity=mourning_room."  It's not a term I've encountered, anyway.
>
>
>> * 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the
>> goat to the butcher...
>>
>
> That sentence no sense makes.
>
>
>> * 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make
>> it as easy as possible for non-native English users.
>>
>
> That is why editors have translations of their presets.
>
>>
>> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian
>> religion.
>
> It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for
>> having
>>
> Christianity as a cultural background.
>>
>
> Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
> using British English to the language of a country which has no
> religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
> such a country but why should that stop us?
>
> "Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology,
>> butmight be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking
>> or pilgrim route.
>
>
> Except that the correct name for such a chapel is "chapel of ease" not
> "chapel of rest."
>
>
>> OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance when
>>
> a bunch of old white males (such as myself) chose a biased term for a
>> feature
>>
> that naturally exists in other cultural/religious contexts as well.
>
>
> Do other religions have such places?  If so, what do they call them?  And
> can we then abstract a neutral name from that?
>
>
>> To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral
>> alternative from my perspective, reflecting the process of mourning which I
>> suppose exists in all cultures.
>>
>
> I object to room being applied to a building which may have many such
> rooms.
> I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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[Tagging] How to tag a threshing floor

[António Madeira via Tagging]

Greetings.

In Portugal and all Mediterranean countries, there are thousands of
thresing floors . Most of
them are not used anymore, of course, but they are still preserved and
are private spaces used for many purposes. I myself have one.
I see there's a reference to this feature in this

wiki page, but wouldn't it fit better in the man_made tag? After all,
this is still an used feature, although not always with the original intent.

Regards.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access

[Simon Poole]

While I would try to avoid it, you can naturally simply duplicate the 
geometry (and you don't even need to duplicate the nodes to do that).


Am 04.11.2020 um 22:26 schrieb Andrew Harvey:


On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:10, Philip Barnes > wrote:


On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 07:26 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote:



On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 23:14, Simon Poole mailto:si...@poole.ch>> wrote:


We don't seem to have a tagging currently for dedicated pickup
locations in this kind of context, bus stops etc are naturally
taggable), if considered really useful I don't see why we
couldn't introduce a amenity=...pickup... tag.




But if such a dedicated pickup location is a carpark then it
needs amenity=parking, so it can't fit into the amenity key.


A pickup point will be a node within a car park area.

Its is already common to add amenity=bicycle_parking nodes within
amenity=car_park areas.


Why would it be a node within a car park? For example 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/366754575 
 is the designated 
airport Uber, etc. pickup location, not some point inside the car 
park, but the whole car park itself.


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Re: [Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:50, Tom Pfeifer  wrote:

> I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the arguments
> against it even here in the tagging list discussions.
>

The proposal itself contains paragraphs indicating it is a work in progress
rather than a finished proposal.  I would have commented but the wiki
is using a black-hole service that has blocked a large chunk of
addresses belonging to my mobile network because some open
proxies were detected.  This is not really ideal for a mobile
service where IP addresses are very volatile.

>
> Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative
> "mourning room"
>

Not in current use in British English.  And even when it was used, it
generally referred to the room in a house that we now call the
"living room."  See
https://www.vintag.es/2018/01/living-room-what-we-call-today-was.html
Also not really suited to a large, dedicated building with more than one
room
for this purpose.  It's that "room" bit that is the problem.

* Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for being
> religiously connotated"
>

He was correct.  But it's rare for a proposal to get unanimous approval.

>
> * Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room,
> funeral chapel, funeral room.
> Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"
>

As I understand it, English (British, American or any other variety) is not
Peter's first language.

>
> * Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a
> marketing term not something we should be using in OSM.
>

What something "sounds like" to an individual is not a strong determinant of
its propriety.

>
> * Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK specific
> term.


It's what they're known as in my part of the UK.  So still contemporary in
at least
parts of the UK.


> ... The euphemistic 'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing
> /Visitation Service',
>

"amenity=visitatation_service" makes even less semantic sense than
"amenity=mourning_room."  It's not a term I've encountered, anyway.


> * 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the
> goat to the butcher...
>

That sentence no sense makes.


> * 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make it
> as easy as possible for non-native English users.
>

That is why editors have translations of their presets.

>
> Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian
> religion.

It might be used in British English, however that is biased itself for
> having
>
Christianity as a cultural background.
>

Congratulations.  You have successfully argued that we must change from
using British English to the language of a country which has no
religious cultural background whatsoever.  Offhand, I can't think of
such a country but why should that stop us?

"Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology,
> butmight be mistaken for a chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking
> or pilgrim route.


Except that the correct name for such a chapel is "chapel of ease" not
"chapel of rest."


> OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance when
>
a bunch of old white males (such as myself) chose a biased term for a
> feature
>
that naturally exists in other cultural/religious contexts as well.


Do other religions have such places?  If so, what do they call them?  And
can we then abstract a neutral name from that?


> To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral
> alternative from my perspective, reflecting the process of mourning which I
> suppose exists in all cultures.
>

I object to room being applied to a building which may have many such rooms.
I'd have less of a problem with amenity=mourning.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access

[Andrew Harvey]

On Wed, 4 Nov 2020 at 20:10, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 07:26 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 23:14, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> We don't seem to have a tagging currently for dedicated pickup locations
> in this kind of context, bus stops etc are naturally taggable), if
> considered really useful I don't see why we couldn't introduce a
> amenity=...pickup... tag.
>
>
> But if such a dedicated pickup location is a carpark then it needs
> amenity=parking, so it can't fit into the amenity key.
>
>
> A pickup point will be a node within a car park area.
>
> Its is already common to add amenity=bicycle_parking nodes within
> amenity=car_park areas.
>

Why would it be a node within a car park? For example
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/366754575 is the designated airport Uber,
etc. pickup location, not some point inside the car park, but the whole car
park itself.
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[Tagging] religious bias - Re: Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Tom Pfeifer]

I was surprised that this tag is rushed into voting despite the arguments against it even here in 
the tagging list discussions.


Let's summarize the criticism first, and look into the alternative "mourning 
room"

* Vollis (the proposer) 18 Sep: ""chapel" will be opposed by some for being 
religiously connotated"

* Peter Elderson 21 Sep: "I have heard mourning chapel, mourning room, funeral 
chapel, funeral room.
Chapel of rest does not seem right to me"

* Janko 23 Sep: images of chapel of rest and mourning room are most 
concentrated and on the target

* Clifford Snow 24 Sep: "Chapel of Rest" sounds to me more like a marketing term not something we 
should be using in OSM.


* Michael Patrick 24 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be a dated UK specific term. ... The euphemistic 
'Chapel of Rest' is more generically known as 'Viewing /Visitation Service',

* 27 Sep: 'Chapel of Rest' seems to be one of those terms like 'Take the goat 
to the butcher...
* 28 Sep: since OSM is an international project, my practice is to make it as easy as possible for 
non-native English users.



Indeed, the proposed value contains 'chapel' which is biased to christian religion. It might be used 
in British English, however that is biased itself for having Christianity as a cultural background.


"Chapel of rest" is an euphemism that avoids death-related terminology, but might be mistaken for a 
chapel where somebody could rest along a hiking or pilgrim route. This is a general problem with 
euphemisms that they intentionally don't hit the nail on the head.


OSM so far is successful in choosing tags agnostic of particular religions, such as 
amenity=funeral_hall recently and amenity=place_of_worship long ago. Thus for this feature I'd 
prefer a value that is applicable to any religion as well as secular ones.


Looking deeper in the example of Place of Worship vs. Church:

The British Ordnance Survey did chose "PoW - Place of Worship" in their maps, and OSM apparently 
inherited that term, although probably nobody says in colloquial English that they "go to the Place 
of Worship tonight", if they go to the church or the mosque or whatever holy place.


However both the OS and the OSM maps remain politically correct when using PoW as the technical 
term, preserving neutrality.


OSM is a map for the whole world, and it does not improve acceptance when a bunch of old white males 
(such as myself) chose a biased term for a feature that naturally exists in other cultural/religious 
contexts as well. Thus that part of the world would need a different tag, leading to tag fragmentation.


To close with an alternative, "mourning room" would be a neutral alternative 
from my perspective,
reflecting the process of mourning which I suppose exists in all cultures.

So:
Please go and vote.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest#Voting


On 04.11.2020 11:17, woll...@posteo.de wrote:

Dear all,

As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal, I've set it to voting. Please 
have a look and vote:


Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come and view someone who has died 
before their funeral


Proposal page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest

Discussion page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[Peter Elderson]

woll...@posteo.de:
> 
> Dear all,
> 
> ...someone who has died before their funeral

I should hope so

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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Chapel of rest)

[wolle68]

Dear all,

As there have been no more comments for some time on this proposal, I've 
set it to voting. Please have a look and vote:


Chapel of rest: a room or building where families and friends can come 
and view someone who has died before their funeral


Proposal page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest


Discussion page: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Chapel_of_rest


Thanks!

Vollis

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Rideshare Access

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2020-11-04 at 07:26 +1100, Andrew Harvey wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 at 23:14, Simon Poole  wrote:
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > We don't seem to have a tagging currently for dedicated pickup
> >   locations in this kind of context, bus stops etc are
> > naturally
> >   taggable), if considered really useful I don't see why we
> > couldn't
> >   introduce a amenity=...pickup... tag.
> 
> But if such a dedicated pickup location is a carpark then it needs
> amenity=parking, so it can't fit into the amenity key.  

A pickup point will be a node within a car park area.

Its is already common to add amenity=bicycle_parking nodes within
amenity=car_park areas.

Phil (trigpoint)


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