Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - migration to use belarusian as default language in Belarus for tagging
Voting started, there are detailed instruction for belarusian active users how to vote: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Be:Belarus_language_issues/Migration_proposal#%D0%93%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B5 On Sun, 4 Sept 2022 at 23:06, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote: > > > > On Sun, 4 Sept 2022 at 20:02, Paveł Tyślacki > wrote: > >> Belarusian OR russian should be used as government languages, new created >> toponims used belarusian and then transliterated to russian or other >> languages. >> >> There are few additionals: >> >> On plates for towns and villages commonly used belarusian, on plates for >> river and lakes commonly used belarusian, more difficult question for >> street plates and public transport, but in Minsk (capital of Belarus) for >> streets and public transport commonly used belarusian. >> > > Thanks! > > In that case, I personally couldn't see a problem with swapping OSM to > Belarusian. > > Thanks > > Graeme > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 6:12 PM Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > here is an example for a mountain situation where you should probably have > the right shoes, and someone in sneakers of flip flops, or pushing (well, > carrying at this point) a baby stroller would have a hard time, but it > wouldn’t qualify for scramble or via ferrata: > yeah, looks like a YDS class 2, or `sac_scale=hiking`. Maybe `mountain_hiking` if that talus is unstable, because then you start to need some technique. I know some runners who would do that barefoot, but I think they're nuts. Do we need `sac_scale=no` for `paved path in a city park`? -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
here is an example for a mountain situation where you should probably have the right shoes, and someone in sneakers of flip flops, or pushing (well, carrying at this point) a baby stroller would have a hard time, but it wouldn’t qualify for scramble or via ferrata: https://bergseensucht.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/file2726.jpg Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
sent from a phone > On 15 Sep 2022, at 19:57, Peter Elderson wrote: > > To map a specific type of path, say, a scramble, none of the sac_scale values > specifically indicates that it is in fact there. > If you try rendering hand-and-foot climbs for hikers, comparable to how you > would render steps, or a busway, you cannot be sure that a specific > combination of sac_scale tags and maybe other tags indicates the presence, > length, course and location of the scramble. The same goes for any data user > who wants to do anything with scrambles. you could indicate the sac_scale every tens or hundreds of meters if you wanted to, having coarse mapping sometimes will happen with highway=scramble as well, just look at how highway=steps is sometimes used to understand Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:30 Uhr schrieb martianfreeloader : > > Imo, scramble would not only include via ferrata. Unlike what I wrote yesterday, there is indeed some overlap of scramble and via ferrata. There are via ferratas, that can be hiked/scrambled without gear: Where the tourism office decided to jump on the trend and invested in iron to make well-known hiking routes more attractive, which of course does not make a trail more difficult, rather the opposite, if you allow yourselves to use the iron for support. Still, there are lots of via ferratas, that truly warrant to be based in their own tag. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Wouldn't scramble=yes with highway=path do the trick? Hurts nobody, and carries the exact information you want. Peter Elderson > Op 15 sep. 2022 om 23:26 heeft Asa Hundert het > volgende geschreven: > > Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:09 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson > : >> >> I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to the actual >> scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to the >> scramble part. Renderers can then show the actual scramble sections. > > Well, that way, 5m path, 5m scramble, … you could achieve the > dotted/dashed rendering on OSM Carto, that some of the "path" > aficionados crave so much for, if only OSM Carto would follow their > advise. > > In earnest: Usage of the highway key originates from discussion on the > forum, and I rather not take this lightly, it is indeed a new kind of > highway, not another attribute of "path" that I propose. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 00:09 Uhr schrieb Peter Elderson : > > I like this proposed highway value. I would probably apply it to the actual > scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to the > scramble part. Renderers can then show the actual scramble sections. Well, that way, 5m path, 5m scramble, … you could achieve the dotted/dashed rendering on OSM Carto, that some of the "path" aficionados crave so much for, if only OSM Carto would follow their advise. In earnest: Usage of the highway key originates from discussion on the forum, and I rather not take this lightly, it is indeed a new kind of highway, not another attribute of "path" that I propose. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Am Do., 15. Sept. 2022 um 21:15 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny : > I don't usually bother breaking up a way by scale if there are no > intersections or PoI's along it. There may be flat spots in among the > scrambles, and I generally don't bother trying to distinguish them. In my opinion, this is the only sane way to deal with this. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 2:53 PM Janko Mihelić wrote: > čet, 15. ruj 2022. 19:57 Peter Elderson je napisao: > >> I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, >> just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. >> > > That isn't true. If you tag a relation with sac_scale, then it is as you > say. But if you tag a way with sac_scale, then this says "this sac_scale is > exactly here, along this whole way". > Or at least "you can't hike this section if you're not up to handling this sac_scale." I don't usually bother breaking up a way by scale if there are no intersections or PoI's along it. There may be flat spots in among the scrambles, and I generally don't bother trying to distinguish them. -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
A sacscale isn't a thing, it's an assigned category. The same category includes different situations, none of which is necessarily actually present, you only know that at least one is there but not which one. So, if a path has a sac_scale which may or may not include a scramble section somewhere, sac_scale simply does not indicate scramble, let alone where it is, how long it is and other niceties. If you split the way from just before the scramble section to just after, and tag only this section with appropriate sac_scale value and other attributes fitting for a scramble, that is a better indication, but it still does not say it's a scramble. Peter Elderson > Op 15 sep. 2022 om 20:53 heeft Janko Mihelić het volgende > geschreven: > > > čet, 15. ruj 2022. 19:57 Peter Elderson je napisao: >> I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, just >> that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. > > > That isn't true. If you tag a relation with sac_scale, then it is as you say. > But if you tag a way with sac_scale, then this says "this sac_scale is > exactly here, along this whole way". > > Janko > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
čet, 15. ruj 2022. 19:57 Peter Elderson je napisao: > I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, > just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. > That isn't true. If you tag a relation with sac_scale, then it is as you say. But if you tag a way with sac_scale, then this says "this sac_scale is exactly here, along this whole way". Janko > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 12:10 PM Sarah Hoffmann via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote: > To get this mess sorted out we should probably start with the discussion > 'what is a hishway=path'. The current definition in the wiki is > not helpful in any way. It basically says that anything can be a path, > i.e. a way with only highway=path carries no information at all. > There's a saying in some hiking communities in the US: "They call this thing a trail." The trouble with all the classifications is that they are subject to over- and under-grading, and I'm afraid I don't have a good way to work around that. I think of one trail that I've been on multiple times that I've had arguments about the grading of. Some sample garden spots on that trail are here. They're probably not the most difficult since they were places where my daughter or I felt secure enough in our footing to pull out a camera. https://flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/51335515628 - note the tall-ish man (me) standing at upper right. You can see that the rock slab is totally covered in tool marks! https://flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/51334609512 - another treacherous slab - covered with black ice in mid-October https://flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/51336071749 - not horribly difficult, but a slip could very well be fatal (and hikers have indeed died falling on that trail) https://flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/52336974320 - because the stuff just keeps right on coming at you https://flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/52360038196 - every bit as vertical as it looks. You can see the red trail marker on the tree. That trail has a very poor safety record - it's been called the most dangerous hiking trail in the US - partly because of its reputation for difficulty and danger. It draws people from New York City, with relatively little hiking experience, who are looking to prove something. It's a point of pride among some hikers to have done the whole 40 km (with about 2800 m of elevation gained and lost again) in under 24 hours. I've never tried. I'm an old man and know my limits. For what it's worth, I'd carry technical ice gear on that trail pretty much at any time between mid-October and mid-May. It's a totally different game in winter, and up in the hills winter comes early and stays late. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oOi7vvpUt0Q/VJnktGwmMDI/BoY/xYpcKlxPPqI/s1600/DSC_3880.JPG is a typical scene - that was the ledge where we were switching from snowshoes and ski poles to crampons and ice axes. (Oops, wait, that's a different trail. Same mountain range, though.) Again, for what it's worth, my daughter and I encountered one party speaking Hoch-Alemannisch among themselves. (Or Schyzertütsch? I find that general set of accents pretty incomprehensible, my German isn't very good.) The one with the best English said to me, "These mountains aren't very high, but they're _demanding!_" (I figure that if someone from the actual Alps is saying that, they're probably demanding.) One guidebook says of one section: "The rock is sound, holds are plentiful, and route-finding is easy. Nevertheless, exposures are dramatic, and less confident parties may wish to use a rope." What SAC scale? I've had arguments about that before. I've had people solemnly assure me that the trail is mere 'hiking' - and others tell me that it has definitely crossed over beyond 'demanding mountain hiking' into 'alpine hiking'. I'd put it into class 4 on the Yosemite scale (which, being an American, is what I know best). But a great many climbers believe that class four is a myth: https://www.summitpost.org/class-four-is-a-myth-problems-in-yds/891794. The hardest moves are probably in the 5.3 or 5.4 range (again on the Yosemite scale), but they're not exposed. My guess is that The Powers That Be are willing to blaze it as a hiking trail because the hard moves aren't exposed and the exposed moves aren't hard. It's a hard problem. Experienced climbers think nothing of this stuff, and put it all in the "not interesting" bucket. But they're the only ones with enough experience to grade the trail accurately. What you need is grading from an experienced _guide_, well versed in assessing trail difficulty with respect to the ability and experience of clients. But you don't get a lot of those people mapping. Instead, you have trails graded by folks like https://youtu.be/k8XmjebwoQw?t=110 "You all right?" and https://youtu.be/k8XmjebwoQw?t=134 "Holy sh*t!" who run on rock that I climb - or by duffers (by comparison with those guys, at least!) like me. Whose definition of 'scramble' should prevail? Disclaimer. I'm terrible at climbing. I decided a long time ago that I was going to stay terrible at climbing because the folks who get good at climbing seem to have an unfortunate habit of winding up dead. I have a good time Out There limiting myself to 'technical hiking' as opposed to 'real climbing.' -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
I know, but the scale does not indicate specific things you encounter, just that somewhere along the way you will be challenged. To map a specific type of path, say, a scramble, none of the sac_scale values specifically indicates that it is in fact there. If you try rendering hand-and-foot climbs for hikers, comparable to how you would render steps, or a busway, you cannot be sure that a specific combination of sac_scale tags and maybe other tags indicates the presence, length, course and location of the scramble. The same goes for any data user who wants to do anything with scrambles. You could argue a scramble is not a thing, or it is not important enough to warrant special mapping, but complex categories and side attributes do not a scramble make. Peter Elderson Op do 15 sep. 2022 om 18:53 schreef Yves via Tagging < tagging@openstreetmap.org>: > Peter, the sac_scale definition on the wiki is quite thorough. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Peter, the sac_scale definition on the wiki is quite thorough. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Then you still cannot indicate "this is a scramble section", only that it may be a scramble section OR something else making the section fall into that sac category. So I think highway=scramble does add information, enabling data users to search, select, deselect, process and present the feature as they see fit. Same as e.g. highway=steps. Is it worth the effort? Don't know. Will it render? Don't know, that's up to the renderer. Can people use it for their own map style or application? Yes, if it's clearly and uniquely mapped they can, but will they? Don't know, that's up to them. Peter Elderson Op do 15 sep. 2022 om 17:43 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer < dieterdre...@gmail.com>: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 15 Sep 2022, at 17:34, Peter Elderson wrote: > > > > If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the > sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct? > > > it depends how fine grained you tag sac_scale, on a hiking route it only > tells you the most difficult level you will encounter, but not where and > for how long, but on single way segments you can tag the difficulty in an > atomic way > > Cheers Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
On Thu, Sep 15, 2022 at 08:16:08AM -0700, Tod Fitch wrote: > Interpreting OSM tags to decide if a way is a hiking trail is a hot mess. In > my hiking map rendering I look at over a dozen tags, individually and in > combination, to decide if a way is a hiking trail or not. Obviously this is > not ideal and we should consider a better way of dealing with this. > > Even though I think improvements in hiking trail tagging are good to be > considered, this highway=scramble strikes me as being a first cut at best and > its entire purpose is to remove some specific items from the rendering as > displayed at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ In other words, its intent is > “tagging for the renderer” which is against the general philosophy of tagging > in OSM. This is the wrong way around. The root problem is that we have a lot of OSM ways tagged highway=path just for the simple reason that they get rendered on the main map. Moving some of the "paths" that really stretch the limits of the definition out of the highway=path tag space will correct this mistake and lead to less tagging for the renderer. To get this mess sorted out we should probably start with the discussion 'what is a hishway=path'. The current definition in the wiki is not helpful in any way. It basically says that anything can be a path, i.e. a way with only highway=path carries no information at all. Sarah ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
sent from a phone > On 15 Sep 2022, at 17:34, Peter Elderson wrote: > > If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the > sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct? it depends how fine grained you tag sac_scale, on a hiking route it only tells you the most difficult level you will encounter, but not where and for how long, but on single way segments you can tag the difficulty in an atomic way Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
So, a selection of sac_scale values may or may not include scramble sections, beside other posible obstacles/hazards/challenges. If you specifically want to know where the scramble sections are, the sac_scale doesn't tell you, correct? Op do 15 sep. 2022 om 15:23 schreef Janko Mihelić > čet, 15. ruj 2022. u 14:52 Peter Elderson napisao > je: > >> Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard >> values would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. >> going up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, >> average hiker without climbing skills and without special gear other then a >> cane, hiking shoes and gloves? >> > > Any of the three combinations: > > highway=path + sac_scale=alpine_hiking > highway=path + sac_scale=demanding_alpine_hiking > highway=path + sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking > > Janko > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > -- Vr gr Peter Elderson ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Le 15 septembre 2022 15:19:58 GMT+02:00, "Janko Mihelić" a écrit : >čet, 15. ruj 2022. u 14:52 Peter Elderson napisao je: > >> Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values >> would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going >> up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, >> average hiker without climbing skills and without special gear other then a >> cane, hiking shoes and gloves? >> > >Any of the three combinations: > >highway=path + sac_scale=alpine_hiking >highway=path + sac_scale=demanding_alpine_hiking >highway=path + sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking > >Janko I'll add to the list the trail_visibility= you like. Yves ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
čet, 15. ruj 2022. u 14:52 Peter Elderson napisao je: > Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values > would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going > up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, > average hiker without climbing skills and without special gear other then a > cane, hiking shoes and gloves? > Any of the three combinations: highway=path + sac_scale=alpine_hiking highway=path + sac_scale=demanding_alpine_hiking highway=path + sac_scale=difficult_alpine_hiking Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Which combination(s) of highway values, sac scale values and hazard values would exclusively represent a scramble (Dutch verb: klauteren, i.e. going up or down there using hands and feet) to a grown-up, non-challenged, average hiker without climbing skills and without special gear other then a cane, hiking shoes and gloves? Peter Elderson > Op 15 sep. 2022 om 14:07 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer > het volgende geschreven: > > > We are having this discussion despite we already have the necessary tags to > describe all relevant aspects, only because some map data consumers do not > take them into account. And these tag are not only used, they are completely > established (sac scale, trail visibility, hazard, etc.). There will always be > people acting irresponsibly, people driving their cars into subway entrances > because it looked as if it was possible on their satnav. The best map will > not prevent this, and they will probably take these paths even if they are > not on their map. If some map publishers do not distinguish more difficult > paths from simpler ones, and people get into problems because of this, it > should be raised with them, in OSM the information is already available. > > Otherwise, where will it stop, are we going to remove places from the map > where people are robbed or shot much more often than in others? In the past, > people wanted to tag perceived (or actually statiscally proven) dangers in > some urban areas in places with big social and economical heterogenity. > > Cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
We are having this discussion despite we already have the necessary tags to describe all relevant aspects, only because some map data consumers do not take them into account. And these tag are not only used, they are completely established (sac scale, trail visibility, hazard, etc.). There will always be people acting irresponsibly, people driving their cars into subway entrances because it looked as if it was possible on their satnav. The best map will not prevent this, and they will probably take these paths even if they are not on their map. If some map publishers do not distinguish more difficult paths from simpler ones, and people get into problems because of this, it should be raised with them, in OSM the information is already available. Otherwise, where will it stop, are we going to remove places from the map where people are robbed or shot much more often than in others? In the past, people wanted to tag perceived (or actually statiscally proven) dangers in some urban areas in places with big social and economical heterogenity. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Hello, Le 15.09.22 à 00:27, martianfreeloader a écrit : don't want to die On the basis of which criteria will you set the limit? for some people, put your shoe on a rock or touch it seems the limit and you seem to be saying that it is no longer a highway=path for you in these cases all sac_scale > demanding_mountain_hiking [1] should therefore have a tag other than highway=path for others going close to the void is a danger, so sac_scale=mountain_hiking should also have a value other than highway=path for others, the impossibility of walking with a child's stroller makes it no longer a path so what, do we have to change all the highway=paths to make sure osmand doesn't suggest they take a path that doesn't suit them ? or is a path that requires you to touch a rock with your hands still a highway=path ? it might make sense to rework what constitutes climbing. but last month I was walking with a 4 year old on a path that required the use of hands (the flat path was 1m with bits of rock and a rope to help climb on). The proposal is that it is no longer a highway=path but highway=scramble it was no problem for a 4 year old child. for me the proposed criterion is not good [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key%3Asac_scale Regards, Marc ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble
Including path sections leading up to the scramble part appears to me as the only information which highway=scramble would add to the sections mapped with highway=path + sac_scale = demanding_mountain_hiking or an upper value of sac_scale. But it's a kind of information which routers can compute without the need to explicitly map it. Alberto -Original Message- From: Peter Elderson Sent: 15 September 2022 00:04 To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - highway=scramble I would probably apply it to the actual scramble sections, though, not including path sections leading up to the scramble part. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
