Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
Vào lúc 03:04 2022-10-05, Warin đã viết: On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote: Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết: I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term. What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain? To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking fountain" or "water fountain". [1] No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the world. Sure, I was just clarifying that "bubbler" isn't _the_ American English term for these devices. Sorry for distracting from the more substantive concern about "fountain", unqualified. It does feel a bit like economizing on keystrokes. (For what it's worth, I think standardizing on English vocabulary and one English dialect's spelling pattern has benefited the project in terms of predictability. But expecting consistent use of British English vocabulary is already kind of a lost cause, considering the existing subset of approved tags and the reality that no one dialect of English has a word for everything.) -- m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
sent from a phone > On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn wrote: > > When it should be, as a suggestion, drinking_water:type=bubbler, or > drinking_water:type=bottle_refill. these tags are misleading, you are not describing drinking water, hence it is not a suitable approach IMHO. amenity=drinking_water is not only used for fountains, some may be springs or water taps, it is a very generic tag which has the essential information for thirsty people, the fountain key can be added to some of them to further specify the feature. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
sent from a phone > On 5 Oct 2022, at 15:26, Jass Kurn wrote: > > The tag amenity=fountain was created to map the entity/object known in > English as fountains, and is documented in the OSM wiki with several pictures > of fountains. eg > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fountain_at_Milan_citadel.JPG what about structures like these, how would you call them? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ATÜ-Markt-2.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AFontana_delle_Anfore,_Roma,_Italia_Feb_25,_2021_10-54-44_AM.jpeg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3AWall_fountain,_Roma,_Italia_Sep_01,_2020_12-33-55_PM.jpeg the picture you posted is very clear for a specific type, but there are many other types as well. Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
sent from a phone > On 5 Oct 2022, at 13:48, ael via Tagging wrote: > > As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler". > As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian. > I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then > I haven't followed this thread closely. But some pictures of alleged > "drinking fountains" elsewhere in the world, don't seem to conform to > the British terminology. fountain=drinking is indeed the generic tag for a drinking fountain, fountain=bubbler is more specific Cheers Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Better term for unisex
gender=any? Thanks Graeme On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 21:21, martianfreeloader wrote: > In the discussion of the Gender proposal, I noted that I find it strange > to use the term "unisex" for "gender-neutral" or "all-gender" (as sex > and gender are different properties). > > Proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gender > > My suggestion was to use gender=mixed instead of gender=unisex. However, > the question was raised whether the meaning of gender=mixed is still > easily understood if the feature can only be used by one person at the > time. I think the answer is yes. But if people disagree, it would be > great if they raise their concerns before voting starts. > > Any comments? > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Tag capacity on benches without separation or not?
Hi Volker, Thanks for your comments. On 05/10/2022 23:01, Volker Schmidt wrote: Can we not finish this useless discussion? 1) That's what the proposal is trying to do. 2) You're free to abstain from any discussion you consider useless; but since you haven't: The amenity=bench tag was created just for that purpose, benches. Some time later someone created the key seats to indicate how many people can sit on a bench, adding explicitly that the key capacity should not be used in that case. The addition that key seats should be used only for benches that have separate seats by an author who obviously had not looked at the actual usage of the two tags. (this has been reverted in the wiki) Recent contributions to this mailing list gave me the impression that not all mappers share your opinion -- hence the proposal(s). The proposal to replace seats with capacity, keeping exactly the same meaning does not make any sense to me. This is off topic. The proposal you're talking about has been cancelled. As clearly stated in the new proposal, the question of how the name the key is left open. A different argument is if we need a separate tag for benches with separated single-person seats (I guess we are talking about waiting chairs or multiseat chairs). Correct, that is a different discussion and should be discussed in a different thread. Not part of this one. This could amenity=chair (used 800 times only) with a new default of seats=1, and an optional seats=x BTW. It is not clear if seats is a noun or a verb. Irrelevant. As said, the name of the key is not subject of the proposal. (but I think it reads nicely both as a verb and a noun) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Tag capacity on benches without separation or not?
Can we not finish this useless discussion? The amenity=bench tag was created just for that purpose, benches. Some time later someone created the key seats to indicate how many people can sit on a bench, adding explicitly that the key capacity should not be used in that case. The addition that key seats should be used only for benches that have separate seats by an author who obviously had not looked at the actual usage of the two tags. (this has been reverted in the wiki) The proposal to replace seats with capacity, keeping exactly the same meaning does not make any sense to me. A different argument is if we need a separate tag for benches with separated single-person seats (I guess we are talking about waiting chairs or multiseat chairs). This could amenity=chair (used 800 times only) with a new default of seats=1, and an optional seats=x BTW. It is not clear if seats is a noun or a verb. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Tag capacity on benches without separation or not?
Le 05.10.22 à 18:57, martianfreeloader a écrit : I've drafted two opposing proposals on whether capacity/seats should be tagged on benches without a functional separation into seats or not. I admire your energy, but I don't think a proposal is made to say what people are allowed or not allowed to do. The proposals are about tags, seat exist, capacity exist, so what ? if i want to estimate the number of places on a bench, i estimate the number of places on a bench :) otherwise you might want to specify that it is forbidden to estimate the height of a tree if you don't climb to the top of it with a measuring device having the precision you require? more seriously, I thought it was going to come out with a proposal for a tag to describe if it's separate seats or if it's continuous (even if I personally don't find this info useful, but it's up to each one to inform it) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - Tag capacity on benches without separation or not?
Hi, after recollecting some courage, here a second attempt. I've drafted two opposing proposals on whether capacity/seats should be tagged on benches without a functional separation into seats or not. The purpose is to find out if there is a community consensus on this question. "Sure, it's fine to tag capacity, even if there is now functional separation": https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bench:_Tag_capacity,_even_if_no_separation "No way! -- This is not objective": https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bench:_Do_not_tag_capacity_if_no_separation *NOTE:* Please discuss *both* proposals on the discussion page with the positive statement: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Bench:_Do_not_tag_capacity_if_no_separation ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
Le 05.10.22 à 15:21, Jass Kurn a écrit : it should be, as a suggestion, drinking_water:type=bubbler, or drinking_water:type=bottle_refill. :type is a meaningless suffix type of what ? big/small ? private/public ? nice/ugly ? so our suggestion could be drinking_water=bubbler, or drinking_water=bottle_refill. bbut as bubbler isn't a BE term, another value is necessary (without forgetting that there is a way to fill a bottle with a "bubbler" even if it is more practical when the jet goes down) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
On Wed, 5 Oct 2022 at 12:48, ael via Tagging wrote: > On Wed, Oct 05, 2022 at 10:46:39AM +, martianfreeloader wrote: > > As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler". > As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian. > I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then > I brought up the issue with bubbler not being a British term, but I'm not really bothered by the specific word "bubbler" which is reasonably descriptive. Concentrating on the word bubbler is a distraction from what I think is the main issue. The issue is the misuse of key:fountain. The tag amenity=fountain was created to map the entity/object known in English as fountains, and is documented in the OSM wiki with several pictures of fountains. eg https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Fountain_at_Milan_citadel.JPG In English a small structure that spurts out drinking water is commonly referred to as a "drinking fountain". . "Drinking Fountain" contains the word fountain but it is not a fountain. In the same way "car park" contains the word park but is not a "park". OSM has a reasonable tag of amenity=drinking_water to map drinking water sources. At some point a contributor decided to create a key to primarily document types of amenity_water and "specific types of drinking water fountains". They made, in my opinion, a huge mistake by naming it key:fountain. The tag guidance is then added to the fountain wiki page. The result is the existence of tags such as fountain=bubbler, and fountain=bottle_refill. When it should be, as a suggestion, drinking_water:type=bubbler, or drinking_water:type=bottle_refill. Jass ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Bench: replace seats by capacity
This revert makes sense to me. BTW, one may count both seats and capacity on benches, why not Oct 2, 2022, 22:15 by dafadl...@gmail.com: > Until very recently, the wiki said that seats=* means seats, not capacity: > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dbench=2357111=2347958 > > In my opinion, this should be reverted. > > Besides, i'm not very enthusiastic about using capacity=* because this > is quite subjective - people have different figures (and feelings at > which minimum distance to the neighbour they are still comfortable). > It seems much better to tag the length of benches. > > Best regards > Raphael > > > On Thu, 29 Sept 2022 at 19:44, Peter Elderson wrote: > >> >> I have stopped tagging seats, because most benches do not have seats. >> Capacity is ok with me, I will start using that, but still I don't think I >> will tag that very often, unless it's a huge bench for 20 (I have seen one!) >> or a very small one for 1 person. I don't mind if others tag seats or >> estimate the capacity different, as long as they don't remove my capacity >> tag. >> >> Peter Elderson >> >> >> Op do 29 sep. 2022 om 14:10 schreef martianfreeloader >> : >> >>> >>> Facing heavy objections and no support, I have come to the conclusion >>> that my proposal is not considered useful by the community. >>> >>> I thus decided to retract it. >>> >>> ___ >>> Tagging mailing list >>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >>> >> >> ___ >> Tagging mailing list >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging >> > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
On Wed, Oct 05, 2022 at 10:46:39AM +, martianfreeloader wrote: > There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British > English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia while > a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa, Portuguese or > Korean word, just because it exists. As a native British English speaker I had never heard of a "bubbler". As others have said, I would have called that a drinking_fountian. I really don't understand why some people object to that term, but then I haven't followed this thread closely. But some pictures of alleged "drinking fountains" elsewhere in the world, don't seem to conform to the British terminology. ael ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
Alternative to the sport=soccer is sport=british_football because "football" is context specific, and "American football", "Australian football", "Canadian football", "Gaelic football" exists. ср, 5 окт. 2022 г., 13:52 martianfreeloader : > There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British > English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia > while a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa, > Portuguese or Korean word, just because it exists. > > I know there are a few exceptions like sport=soccer, footway=sidewalk > and sidewalk=*, but I think this kind of exceptions shouldn't be made > without a very good reason. > > > > On 05/10/2022 12:04, Warin wrote: > > > > On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote: > >> Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết: > >>> I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which > >>> appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking > >>> fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term. > >>> What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain? > >> > >> To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, > >> Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking > >> fountain" or "water fountain". [1] > > > > > > No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the > > world. > > > > - > > > > In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water > > upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water bottle > > filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from with flow > > rates to suit direct human consumption. > > > > > > Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than > > convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'. > > > > > > The problem? > > > > > > 1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the > > moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary > > tag of drinking_water=yes. > > > > > > 2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature > for; > > > > 2a) humans to directly drink from. Consider a small child, the elderly. > > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png > > > > > > 2b) refilling glasses/cup/mugs/bottle from. In most instances there > > would be some form of tap? > > > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png > > > > > > 2c) refiling large vessels from e.g. caravans, boats? A little google > > searching for caravans leads me to believe that they use 'normal' taps, > > probably because they are 'everywhere' and more likely to be 'free'. > > > > > > This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things? > > > > > > Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap, > > bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain? > > > > So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water? > > > > water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary > > sources, and streams and pools - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas > > > > > > It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause > > too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above? > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Better term for unisex
In the discussion of the Gender proposal, I noted that I find it strange to use the term "unisex" for "gender-neutral" or "all-gender" (as sex and gender are different properties). Proposal: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gender My suggestion was to use gender=mixed instead of gender=unisex. However, the question was raised whether the meaning of gender=mixed is still easily understood if the feature can only be used by one person at the time. I think the answer is yes. But if people disagree, it would be great if they raise their concerns before voting starts. Any comments? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
There is a broad consensus that the language for OSM tags is British English. Using a non-BE word for a tag because it is used in Australia while a synonymous BE word exists, would be the same using a Xhosa, Portuguese or Korean word, just because it exists. I know there are a few exceptions like sport=soccer, footway=sidewalk and sidewalk=*, but I think this kind of exceptions shouldn't be made without a very good reason. On 05/10/2022 12:04, Warin wrote: On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote: Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết: I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term. What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain? To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking fountain" or "water fountain". [1] No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the world. - In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water bottle filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from with flow rates to suit direct human consumption. Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'. The problem? 1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary tag of drinking_water=yes. 2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature for; 2a) humans to directly drink from. Consider a small child, the elderly. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png 2b) refilling glasses/cup/mugs/bottle from. In most instances there would be some form of tap? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png 2c) refiling large vessels from e.g. caravans, boats? A little google searching for caravans leads me to believe that they use 'normal' taps, probably because they are 'everywhere' and more likely to be 'free'. This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things? Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap, bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain? So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water? water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary sources, and streams and pools - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Deprecation proposal: man_made=drinking_fountain
On 5/10/22 08:25, Minh Nguyen wrote: Vào lúc 11:54 2022-10-04, Jass Kurn đã viết: I've just noticed there is a bubbler tag being promoted? Which appears to be an American English term for a British English drinking fountain. Why promote another term, and use an American English term. What was wrong with calling a drinking fountain a drinking fountain? To clarify, "bubbler" is a distinctively regional term in Boston, Rhode Island, and Wisconsin. Elsewhere, it's either "drinking fountain" or "water fountain". [1] No. 'Bubbler' is also used in Australia. And possibly elsewhere is the world. - In England it looks like a "Drinker Water Fountain" spurts water upwards. There are some with elevated outlets described as water bottle filler, but are at a height that is convenient to drink from with flow rates to suit direct human consumption. Things that direct water downwards? And have flow rates greater than convenient for human consumption? To me, these are 'taps'. The problem? 1) identify feature that provided drinkable water - fairly basic. At the moment the common amenity=drinking_water does this .. or the secondary tag of drinking_water=yes. 2) identify the physical properties and easy usability of the feature for; 2a) humans to directly drink from. Consider a small child, the elderly. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg/278px-Drinking_Fountain_-_The_Noun_Project.svg.png 2b) refilling glasses/cup/mugs/bottle from. In most instances there would be some form of tap? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/France_road_sign_ID29.svg/337px-France_road_sign_ID29.svg.png 2c) refiling large vessels from e.g. caravans, boats? A little google searching for caravans leads me to believe that they use 'normal' taps, probably because they are 'everywhere' and more likely to be 'free'. This leaves out wells, streams.. and other things? Possibly there is a need to avoid the words presently in use - tap, bubbler, fountain, drinking_fountain? So? A sub tag for amenity=drinking_water? water_direction=upwards/downwards ? Humm should consider stationary sources, and streams and pools - a bowel etc? Humm any ideas It would be nice to indicate the flow rate too .. but that will cause too many arguments .. so lets just work on the above? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
