Re: [Tagging] is tourism a good category for everything cultural?
2010/8/24 Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com: I hope we are flexible enough to allow our tagging to evolve and improve. especially not, if a lot of people actually disagree with that change. Fair enough, but what if many people agree with the change? What if convincing arguments are given for, many people agree with them, and the only major disagreement is “it goes against the status quo”? Or the only disagreement is that it will break the renderers? Well, I will take a change to 'troll' again about it. This discussion comes up again and again because we don't have: a) clear tagging guidelines (*not* rules) b) mechanism to replace tags While I agree that tag by it's nature doesn't matter while renderers and editors treat them right, however, there are lot of things which can be cleaned up - for mappers sake. Because tagging is done by people and less the confusion is, more tagging is correct. Yes, there are some historical screwups. But do they really can't be fixed? It is not like we are trying to rearrange whole amenity or shop space. It doesn't mean that everything can and will be changed. But it does allow room for fixing error so taggers don't get confused. Said all that, I think more work is needed on cleaning up and fixing map features wiki entries. There are lot of bugs and errors. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Permanent open air stage
Hi! I'm tagging my hometown and saw that Map features doesn't have any tag to mark open air stages. I know lot of open air stages are one time effort (for example, festivals), but there are lot of permanent ones (made of stone, wood, etc.), especially in Europe. leisure = openair_stage or leisure=open_air_stage? Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Permanent open air stage
2010/8/23 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2010/8/23 Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com: Hi! I'm tagging my hometown and saw that Map features doesn't have any tag to mark open air stages. I know lot of open air stages are one time effort (for example, festivals), but there are lot of permanent ones (made of stone, wood, etc.), especially in Europe. leisure = openair_stage or leisure=open_air_stage? I can point you to 2 examples in Berlin, which I haven't checked for actual tagging but might be an example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.515502lon=13.229589zoom=18layers=M http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.46212lon=13.545709zoom=18layers=M It uses building=yes, which isn't wrong, but not explict. I think it is worth to introduce new tag. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Permanent open air stage
2010/8/23 Liz ed...@billiau.net: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I'm tagging my hometown and saw that Map features doesn't have any tag to mark open air stages. I know lot of open air stages are one time effort (for example, festivals), but there are lot of permanent ones (made of stone, wood, etc.), especially in Europe. leisure = openair_stage or leisure=open_air_stage? a similar item from the 19th Century is called a bandstand do they have a tag yet? otherwise I would consider them equivalent and tag them the same Not slipping into details, yes, it's the same. Open_air_stage I think is more generic and more to point. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] is tourism a good category for everything cultural?
2010/8/23 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2010/8/22 Claudius Henrichs claudiu...@gmx.de: tourism=artwork + artwork_type=sculpture because of the quote above I'm raising the question: is tourism a good top-category? I think in many cases it is not. Even hotels are only sometimes related to tourism, while others are related to business. The wiki states: Places and things of specific interest to tourists IMHO neither artwork, nor museums, nor picnic-sites and the least zoos are of specific interest to tourists. I'd very much like to see a toplevel-tag cultural (and probably another one accomodation). But does it matter? After long discussion about emergency I'm not so sure. Yes, things which are can be interesting to tourists are mostly cultural. But they don't exclude each other, so where is problem? It is still matter how map is rendered and which data are selected to be viewed. In fact, culture is so overwhelmingly general word, that it can be anything. I would avoid to use it. It would help to see which old tags you think must be under new cultural toplevel tag. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Permanent open air stage
2010/8/23 David Earl da...@frankieandshadow.com: On 23/08/2010 10:54, Liz wrote: On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: I'm tagging my hometown and saw that Map features doesn't have any tag to mark open air stages. I know lot of open air stages are one time effort (for example, festivals), but there are lot of permanent ones (made of stone, wood, etc.), especially in Europe. leisure = openair_stage or leisure=open_air_stage? a similar item from the 19th Century is called a bandstand do they have a tag yet? otherwise I would consider them equivalent and tag them the same http://osm.org/go/0ERWvVy24-- I tagged building=bandstand, but I know of numerous others so a tag in its own right would be good. I can think of at least four different things like this: - the Victorian bandstand as above, - a stage where theatre is performed (Covent Garden - the performance area, not the Opera) - an orchestra stage (which might be the same thing, or might be exclusive) - I have in mind the one on the banks of the Charles River in Boston. Is this in fact different from a bandstand except in scale? Clearly at a high level no and at a deeper level yes. - a historic amphitheatre still used for contemporary productions - like the one at Orange in France Also, doesn't the Parthenon has a permanent theatrical seating area for the Son et lumiere displays, so there's no stage but there is an auditorium. David Ok, I went with building=bandstand. Anyone for creating proposal feature or edit it stright down in Map features? Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
2010/7/31 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: ... Your proposal doesn't add any value to OSM. Sorry John, but you really haven't thought this through. I think we can stop right here with Dave personal attack to John (it was strange because there is at least three persons in this thread who supports this change) and think why it happens so frequently when anyone dears to suggest change current tag regime even for a little. I think there is some indication of lack of any clear vision for OSM. Sorry, but free map for all doesn't cut it, you need more local and concrete goals too. Current tag scheme is a mess. And mess is still a mess, even if *you* dig it. There is no clear guidelines how to create new tag (even if we stay free to tag platform, instructions are must have to have at least some consistency). There is old mess with almost everything and it's shadow tagged in amenity name space. While we have several relations, lot of proposed ones are not even normally accepted yet. Wiki is a chaotic bunch of links. Useful, but still chaotic. Yes, it started with emergency=fire_hydrant, but John reasonably rose a pitch because lot of things can be in this name space. Discussion was quite reasonable until don't change what doesn't work...ups...works...sort of meme didn't kicked in. I understand amount of work what should be done to change things. However, should it be stoppage power so we do nothing - I really doubt that. Let's be more civil and polite with each other too. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
2010/7/31 Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com: On 31/07/2010 12:25, John Smith wrote: Actually it does, it splits things away from let's dump everything in the amenity key space... There's nothing wrong with that. It doesn't cause a problem. It *does* cause a confusion in lot of OSMers, experienced and new alike. It drives contributions away. Believe me, I see it everyday. License change won't kill OSM, tag inconsistency will. Introducing new name spaces to separate huge amenity crowd logically is definitely way to go. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] emergency=*
2010/7/29 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 6:29 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: amenity=police - emergency=police_station amenity=hospital - emergency=hospital amenity=fire_station - emergency=fire_station I don't see what hospital is doing here. An hospital may or may not have an emergency department/room. If you go to that way, create an health/healthcare category. I second this. Emergency namespace must have definitely essential things, but not all things. emergency=ambulance_station is definitely right, but not emergency=hospital. It rises interesting question though - I would suggest to tag emergency=ambulance_station (as node) separately from hospital, as sometimes hospitals are very huge and it is very important sometimes to *know* where actual ambulance is. Please, let's not flame about someone changing tags already - it is not right thing to do, bet not worth the fight. We are here for mostly for same thing, right? Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Fire_Hydrant
2010/7/27 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 27 July 2010 22:33, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: Using the same tag for both could cost lives, by making delays in finding the necessary equipment (fire hydrant or fire extinguisher) to fight the fire in question. While it may be useful to tag these things on OSM, I don't think anyone could or should be using OSM for life threatening emergency help in any way shape or form. Why not? As any other map, it has to be taken with piece of salt, but if data are collected honestly and firefighters knows it, it can be very valuable. Even more - it would be nice if firefighters would use OSM as reference for themselves (having osm file copy somewhere of course). Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Bridges and layers
2010/7/26 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 11:58 AM, Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com wrote: Good idea, or just a local fix? Richard Personnally, I think the easiest to fix many issues would be to draw a specific polygon for the bridge and link it to the roads, cycleways, railways, etc by a relation. I don't know for renderers but it would make contributors live much easier. You don't split roads anymore. You can align nodes in circle for your roundabout. You don't see gaps between the different ways going over the same bridge, etc... +1 Draw bridge as physical instance and bind ways to it in relation. Anyone up to make a proposal feature? Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
2010/7/1 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 1 July 2010 19:08, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: no, I don't generally disagree with the translations, the thing is: (almost) every tag (at least of the ones in the presets) is documented in the wiki in English, many of these definitions are not translated into other languages. As long as you don't read and understand Not having translations or having poor translations, which seems to be your biggest issue, is very bad especially if we want to actually map most of the world, because most of the world doesn't speak english. In any case this is no longer about football or tagging, any suggestions on where to shift this discussion? On having JOSM Lite version, which can be easily localizable too? I know that current JOSM can be translated now too, but it has enough thousand of strings to make causal translator cry (I'm translating gui stuff every day as GNOME/Ubuntu translator). I really don't think that messing with tags is very good idea. Users shall not see them anyway, unless they do what software can't do automatically. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] indirect id's Re: football or soccer ?
2010/7/1 Bill Ricker bill.n1...@gmail.com: On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:08 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In fact, the technique of having the user select from a list of words, but actually storing the value as an arbitrary ID (generally numeric), is the recommended technique in database design. It is called normalizing the database. Having the linking value be an ID value means that, should you want to change the verbal description of the value, for example from soccer to association_football, you only have to change the value once, in the lookup table, rather than changing it in thousands of places. +1 Not only does this insulate from change and allow alternate terms to map to thzsame code, but also supports internationalization. -1 How current scheme doesn't support internationalization? How would that solve problems we have? In couns, with this proposal you loose readibility, you can't manage tags manually, you have to manage huge database/table of tags and their numbers. It gives you new problems and doesn't solve old ones. If we talking about table normalization, it is about having definite records and then align them with number IDs. Tags never bill be definite (as much I would like to). And lot or real database guys normalization sees as double edged sword, which sometimes are getting in the way to get job done. I really hate direction this conversation is going just because someone can't take a fact that 'soccer' is term of football we all know and love. Get over it - that's life, anyone can take any word and claim it obscene or trash or something he/she doesn't like. Let's better clean up and normalize tags, improving schemas and relations. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
2010/6/28 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com: The only thing missing on the wiki, as far as I could see, was something sensible for American Football. It is not sensible to use football for American Football, since the most likely meaning if someone tags sport=football (in spite of the wiki advice not to) is that they mean Association Football. Well, let's add then sport=american_football then? Propose it and I think most of us will vote for it. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] football or soccer ?
2010/6/28 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 28 June 2010 21:41, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Well, I think no one oppose this. Maybe we can collect list of other football wariants so list would be complete and therefore valid. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Football Nice, thanks. Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A shop selling fish and seafood
2010/5/5 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com: On 5 May 2010 22:10, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2010 21:21, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: what sort of food... ready cooked food or food that still needs cooking/preparing He's talking about this sort of thing: shop=food food:ocean_fish=yes food:shellfish=yes food:river_fish=no shop=food food=sea_food food:ocean_fish=yes Well, this actually makes more sense. Altough it will require lot of retagging and selling idea to real mappers. While discussing this, can we create proposal page for shop=seafood? Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cleaning up
2010/5/5 Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 2:56 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 5 May 2010 22:50, Jonas Minnberg sas...@gmail.com wrote: * Remove cycleways parallel to other ways and add a cycleway=track to that way instead. Is there a good reason you want to reduce information? Yes, as you may guess from my topic. Removing unnecessary stuff is a good thing IMHO. I thought the idea behind cycleway=track and cycleway=lane was to avoid having to draw lots of parallel ways. It avoids clutter on my limited resolution GPS. It makes routing easier faster. And it makes things more consistent. Well, one man's cruft is another man's gold, so objectively you don't know what is useful and what's not, so it is simply better for everyone to remove anything what is not correct. I suggest to filter maps out when exporting them to your GPS instead of removing them from OSM. Like it or not, micromapping is on the rise and I am quite sure that we will see routers inteligent enough to make use of this uncessary stuff. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cleaning up
cleway into the highway). So OK, I can leave sidewalks (even though to be consistent you should then draw sidewalks next to every street in the city that has them). Well, not exactly, I draw only when I survey them on the ground, therefore I know how they are connected with each other. And for consistency - OSM is far from it - but it would be nice to have proper sidewalks everywhere, because it can and will be quite essential for walking routing. But what's the problem with aligning POIs to building edges so they don't look like they been randomly thrown out, or removing things that are wrong? I think no one said it's wrong. If you know that shop is somewhere more inside, move it according to your information. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Cleaning up
A bad compromise would be to leave the park area and retag it as fixme=looked_green_on_satellite or something, but that approach would just leave lots of useless areas... If they aren't parks, then what are they? Wouldn't it be smart to tag it as fixme for surveying on the ground, and by then default on most possible variant? P. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A shop selling fish and seafood
More I read other people arguments, more I want to support shop=seafood. I would say someone create proposal feature wiki page for it and we wote. Cheers, Peter. 2010/5/4 Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net: So, we have some objection to shop=fishmonger, and more support for shop=fish and shop=seafood. Do we vote on it or what? User a href=http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Claudius%20Henrichs;Claudius Henrichs/a even went ahead and changed some existing nodes with shop=seafood to shop=fishmonger. -- Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A shop selling fish and seafood
2010/4/30 Jonathan Bennett openstreet...@jonno.cix.co.uk: On 30/04/2010 09:57, Claudius Henrichs wrote: I'm trying to get some input on how to tag a shop selling fish and seafood from some english speaking users. For the sake of sanity I'd use shop=fishmonger This describes what the shop sells in general, without getting into whether or not it sells any one particular kind of water-borne animal. It's certainly the generic term for such a shop in the UK. I second this - generic and specific enough for this kind of shop. Anyone cares to provide proposed feature in wiki? :) Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging buildings
2010/4/26 Alexander Sidorov alexi...@gmail.com: Hello! I am writing an application that queries OSM buildings. Please tell me what is the common way of tagging buildings. Do they usually have names (I'm talking about usual buildings, not places of interest)? What does usually name contain: addr:housenumber, addr:housename, etc. or some combination? http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features#Addresses I usually add addr:housenumber, addr:street (because otherwise Nominatim and other parsers don't find address properly, you have to connect house to the street). There are another way to use relation, which I haven't started yet to do, but I plan to. If you add addr:*, it is enough so it can be found in openstreetmap.org search. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] New place value for single settlements (below hamlet)
2010/4/5 ℳ∡ℝℸⅈℿ Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: Following recent discussion on talk-de I'm proposing a new place value for single settlements (free standing single building, often farm, outside settlement, max. 2 households). As I am German I'm not sure if I got the right term for this in English. My idea would be that this could be tagged place=single_settlement but feel free to propose better words for this. I fully second this. Standartization of this tag is long overdue, and I think place=single_settlement would be just fine, as there are many different names for it in different countries (so generic common name for it would be very ok). Cheers, Peteris. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposal for more detail on leisure=playground
I think you can either just add information about playground, or do both - add information and point where actual stuff are. It's add a little redundancy for consistency, but I think it's worth it. Peter. 2010/3/26 Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl: On Friday 26 March 2010 02:30:58 Craig Wallace wrote: IMO it would be more useful to map the locations of individual play equipment. Except that most mappers don't have the equipment and/or time to do this accurately. In that case putting the tags on the playground is better. -- m.v.g., Cartinus ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Cafe - Place to buy and consume light snacks and NON-Alcoholic Drinks (Tea, Coffee, Coke etc) on site. Usually Unlicensed. Good luck finding one in Eastern Europe. Can't survive without selling booze. Alcohol is essential for cafe to survive but otherwise it is clearly cafe. Pub - Place to buy and consume Alcoholic Drinks on site, (may also retail Non-Alcoholic Drinks, Snacks and sometimes Food) Mostly food and alcohol, but heavy influence of second one. Food usually not so bad, but very expensive. But mostly I agree with definition. Bar - Place to buy Alcoholic Drinks within a large establishment, maybe with a hotel, or holiday complex, may share its seating with other vendors. Not only. Bars sometimes are single entities, combined with several slot machines. The line is weather it sells Beer, or other Alcoholic Beverages, Line to distuingish what? Peter. Cheers, also Peter :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Dutch cafes (was: What's a power=station?)
Still these places vary from country/culture to culture. IMHO we should continue the way we are going. E.g. I would recommend to tag an Italian bar with amenity=bar but expect something different if I navigate to a Bar in Rome than I would if I went to a Bar in Berlin. Let the mapuser interpret the available information. All Italian Bars call themselves bar. For an Italian (casual) mapper it will be confusing to tag a bar with café (and still café doesn't describe the place well, as an Italian Bar is not a Viennese Café). Seconded. There will be always differences, and we can't cover it all by tagging. Let's do minimum we can. Cheers, Martin P. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] What's a power=station?
2010/1/20 Anthony o...@inbox.org: On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: The Dutch cafe example is parallel to the motel / love_hotel example from Brazil and other countries. Sometimes a term has quite different uses in different cultures, and these are traps for all travellers. The question of whether the same tag has the same meaning wherever it is or whether meaning has to be gained from context, as we do now with traditional paper based maps, remains in discussion. The other question is whether or not OSM wants to be a map or a travel guide. I'm liking more and more the suggestion to tag the cafe/motel with building=yes and addr:*=*, and leave the rest to the travel guides and yellow pages. Perhaps power plants are big and recognizable enough to be an exception to this rule, but when you have to go inside an establishment and read their menu before you can determine how to tag the place, are we really mapping what's on the ground? We map everything we can. And POIs btw is one big reason for lot of people to map. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for cycleways (was Re: bicycle=no)
2010/1/8 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com: 2010/1/8 Richard Mann richard.mann.westoxf...@googlemail.com So the 22,000 highway=cycleway in the UK all need to be changed. Unfortunately, UK mappers don't seem to agree with this. If you are sure that there is zero official cycleways, where is the problem to change all this tagging to special one mentioned by Steve? Automate it and be done, no? well, I'm pretty sure if you'd start today you would have changed them within some weeks, but still mainly designed could be interpreted for some of those 22,000 cycleways as well, couldn't it? On the other hand Germany alone has 4 times the cycleways in OSM and does require distinction between formal cycleways and other ways where cycles might be allowed as well but are not considered cycleways. Haven't looked up the numbers for France, Italy, the Netherlands and so on, but I agree with you: the best will be to find a workaround for yesterdays mistakes. Workarounds might work for temporary, but for future it will be easier to agree to clear and cut part of this feature, and deal with semi-official and seems like with different tags. Yes, it will require going trough and reviewing stuff. But it must be done if you want nice definitive map at some level. Just my imho Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for cycleways (was Re: bicycle=no)
2010/1/7 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Peteris Krisjanis pec...@gmail.com wrote: Tag highway = cycleway for official cycleways and bicycle=yes if it's allowed to have bicycles on footpaths somewhere. End of story. Yes, in Heh, that makes about three people with very simple takes on the matter - and they're all contradictory. The matter is simple to lots of people - with different understandings each time. In bare bones basic, Steve, are you for or against using highway = cycleway for officially marked cycleways only? That's what I would like to understand :) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for cycleways
Just a side note, I think different rules for each country for footways can't be mapped exactly (some countries allow bikes on footways by default, some don't. What happens when country rules changes?). I personally would leave it to parsers/routers. Yes, maybe it's moves OSM just a little bit away to be strightfully useful map, but trying to fit current situation into tags won't help. There should be some basics we can agree on and then move on details. So I agree with colegues from Germany - highway = cycleway for officially marked cycle ways and bicycle=yes for footways with cycle allowance mark. Routers depending on the rules of the country must asume that you can use footway with cycle or not. Cheers, Peter. 2010/1/7 Jukka Rahkonen jukka.rahko...@mmmtike.fi: Hi, I would be happy it I could get an instant yes or no answer to two questions: Can I walk along this thing? Can I cycle along this thing? I would love to see just yes or no alternatives, not anything like yes/no/designated/official. I know there may be a need to have a few hundred additional tags for detailed classification but I am prepared to make more questions to get more information after the first course sorting. Fine, I can cycle here. Is it even designated for it? How is the surface like? I tried once to make an universal query for finding cycleable ways/paths but concluded that it is impossible. I managed to get this far: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Consolidation_footway_cycleway_path#selecting_all_cycleways_.28sql.29 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- mortigi tempo Pēteris Krišjānis ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposed definition for cycleways (was Re: bicycle=no)
2010/1/6 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com: On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: It is an old page because designation and default access is an old topic and there is no black and white answer. In some countries, when you tag a cycleway, it is obviously not allowed for pedestrians and contributors do not want to be forced to add a foot=no because in some other countries it is obviously allowed. It's like asking the whole world to add a bicycle=no with highway=motorway because it is allowed in some US motorways. But isn't the point of the table to allow an Australian to tag highway=cycleway and to mean something different from when a German does it? And the point is that the makers of renderers and routers can use this table? Presumably we should provide it in XML format or something to make this easier. Or is this the dream, but it's actually not used? What am I missing? It would be very helpful to see an Australian entry in this page, of course. Jesus, what this dead horse has done to you? Tag highway = cycleway for official cycleways and bicycle=yes if it's allowed to have bicycles on footpaths somewhere. End of story. Yes, in real life lot of people will use footpaths for cycling, and some footpaths would be suitible for cycling, but will lack official marking. Well, bad luck. We can't have everything as in real life on OSM. We have to draw a line somewhere. In fact, if I see a footpath who looks really supictious as usable for cycling too, I will note this with note=* tag and maybe later I will check it out for sure. If not, someone else propably will do. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Comparison of tag support: Mapnik, Osmarender, Potlatch, JOSM, Kosmos, Map Features (wiki)
By the way, isn't this moment where we should talk how to do seperate maps/layers for osm.org and how to deal with different kind of maps in general? It is clear that road and traffic map won't have all shops rendered (that would be serious overload of information), etc. Yes, we have already examples with public transport and cycling, but shouldn't something be done with concept itself, for people who wants to use openstreetmap.org? How hard would be to do layers with JS and slippy map concept? Also it would be nice to add popular services which uses OSM data to this table - opencyclemap.org, öpnvkarte.de, if it's possible (t.i. if parser data is available publicly). Anyway, great work Steve and I agree, while there are differences in aims, basic tag support at least should be consistent in main renderers. This table would help anyone who would like to start to solve this. Cheers, Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Comparison of tag support: Mapnik, Osmarender, Potlatch, JOSM, Kosmos, Map Features (wiki)
2009/12/14 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, Peteris Krisjanis wrote: By the way, isn't this moment where we should talk how to do seperate maps/layers for osm.org and how to deal with different kind of maps in general? It is clear that road and traffic map won't have all shops rendered (that would be serious overload of information), etc. Yes, we have already examples with public transport and cycling, but shouldn't something be done with concept itself, for people who wants to use openstreetmap.org? No. openstreetmap.org is not intended to become the better Google Maps. openstreetmap.org is a showcase for what you can do with our data. It cannot, and will not, host every map that someone could possibly want made from our data. Our data is there for the taking - you want OpenShopMap, create OpenShopMap. And I am clearly ok with that. I just asking then - what we do render and what not in default OpenStreetMap.org map? It is just demo piece or maybe we can render it as general traffic map (as it is now, but I have lot of suggestions)? I simply haven't seen any clear clarification on this. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Comparison of tag support: Mapnik, Osmarender, Potlatch, JOSM, Kosmos, Map Features (wiki)
2009/12/14 Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org: Hi, Mike N. wrote: No. openstreetmap.org is not intended to become the better Google Maps. openstreetmap.org is a showcase for what you can do with our data. It cannot, and will not, host every map that someone could possibly want made from our data. Our data is there for the taking - you want OpenShopMap, create OpenShopMap. I would be happy to see shop=* added to Mapnik, even if the name takes the lowest priority for available space. I wasn't arguing specifically against shops, I was just saying that we cannot possibly have *everything* on the map, and a decision has to be made. We still want the map to appeal to people visually because (as I said) it is there as a showcase, not as an end product - if the web page gives people the impression OSM maps are cluttered because everyone can put in whatever stuff they want then that's counterproductive. But what then is what we expect from default www.openstreetmap.org map? What is shown and what's not? p.s. I know I repeat myself, but I haven't heard clear and cut answer. Cheers, Peter. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
