Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> With respect to only riding on the shoulder, we're talking about
> freeways, where ramps are almost always on the right side (left in
> some countries).


I won't speak for you, but I was talking about whether or not "bicycles
allowed only on the shoulder" should be tagged as "access=yes" or something
else (such as "access=shoulder_only").  It came up in the context of a
freeway (*), but the access tag should be consistent regardless of whether
or not the road is a freeway.

(*) Actually, I believe it came up in the context of interstates, which are
not all freeways if you count the non-standards-compliant interstates in
Alaska (are there others?).
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[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Nathan Edgars II]

Anthony wrote:
>On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> When you cycle, how do *you* handle a (left) turn? In Florida you have
>> two options - move over to the left like any other driver, or stop on
>> the right and cross the entire roadway. The router will tell you to
>> turn left, and you'll choose how to do that.
>>
>It seems to me that the latter isn't always available, at least not safely
>and legally.  Granted, I don't know of any roads (in Florida or otherwise)
>where bicycles are permitted, but they are only permitted to use the
>shoulder, so I can't think of an example off the top of my head.  But what
>if there's something like this:
>http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&ll=28.058596,-82.503741&spn=0.00152,0.001778&t=k&z=19
>
>If bicycles are only permitted to use the shoulder, that means they can't
>use the left turning lane, and instead have to go to the next traffic light
>and make a U-turn.  If bicycles are allowed to use the roadway, then they
>can get in the left turning lane and make the turn directly.

With respect to only riding on the shoulder, we're talking about
freeways, where ramps are almost always on the right side (left in
some countries). I am curious what happens at the rare left-side
(right) exits and entrances. If bikes are required to stay on the
right (left) shoulder, these ramps should be tagged bicycle=no. Does
anyone know of any relevant cases?

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> Anthony wrote:
> >I wouldn't suggest tagging a road with bicycle=yes if bicycles are only
> >permitted in a bike lane either.  How's a router supposed to know how to
> >handle turns if it thinks the bikes are allowed to use the road?
>
> When you cycle, how do *you* handle a (left) turn? In Florida you have
> two options - move over to the left like any other driver, or stop on
> the right and cross the entire roadway. The router will tell you to
> turn left, and you'll choose how to do that.
>

It seems to me that the latter isn't always available, at least not safely
and legally.  Granted, I don't know of any roads (in Florida or otherwise)
where bicycles are permitted, but they are only permitted to use the
shoulder, so I can't think of an example off the top of my head.  But what
if there's something like this:
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&ll=28.058596,-82.503741&spn=0.00152,0.001778&t=k&z=19

If bicycles are only permitted to use the shoulder, that means they can't
use the left turning lane, and instead have to go to the next traffic light
and make a U-turn.  If bicycles are allowed to use the roadway, then they
can get in the left turning lane and make the turn directly.
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[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Nathan Edgars II]

Anthony wrote:
>I wouldn't suggest tagging a road with bicycle=yes if bicycles are only
>permitted in a bike lane either.  How's a router supposed to know how to
>handle turns if it thinks the bikes are allowed to use the road?

When you cycle, how do *you* handle a (left) turn? In Florida you have
two options - move over to the left like any other driver, or stop on
the right and cross the entire roadway. The router will tell you to
turn left, and you'll choose how to do that.

>On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>>In my area, some freeways allow bicycles, some don't. It would be completely 
>>incorrect to presume that those that don't are "more freeway-like".
>OSM doesn't have a tag of "freeway", so I don't know what you're getting at.

The motorway tag is used for freeways in the US (and presumably
Australia). You may not be aware, but the trunk tag is not used for
trunk roads in the UK; it's for the "primary route network", which
includes many non-trunk roads.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/15 Steve Bennett :

> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.790341,145.039779&z=19&t=k&nmd=20100416
>
> You tell me which of those is a highway=motorway and which is a highway=trunk.


actually there seems quite some traffic, that's why I would consider
it extremely dangerous to use the shoulder by bike, be it forbidden or
not. If a car stops at the shoulder (e.,g.
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.837408,144.801109&z=22&t=h&nmd=20100416
you will have to go on the lane for cars.

and on each exit you would have to cross high speed traffic:
http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.790915,145.033123&z=20&t=k&nmd=20100416

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:21 PM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> For starters, in many places roads
> with bike lanes prohibit cycling outside the bike lane. And since
> there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane, it
> doesn't make sense to distinguish between "bicycle=yes" and
> "bicycle=shoulder_only".
>

I wouldn't suggest tagging a road with bicycle=yes if bicycles are only
permitted in a bike lane either.  How's a router supposed to know how to
handle turns if it thinks the bikes are allowed to use the road?

Secondly...I really can't see how the presence or absence of bicycle
> restrictions changes the status of the road at all.


And I can't see how it doesn't.  A motorway is a road which, among other
things, is restricted to motor vehicle traffic.  A road which allows
bicycles doesn't fit that definition.  Of course, if the bicycles aren't
allowed on the roadway - only on the shoulder...I don't know.  OSM doesn't
have good per-lane tagging yet, so no answer is particularly good.  But any
answer which doesn't at least give the information that bicycles are
permitted only on the shoulder (i.e. bicycle=yes) would be unacceptable.

In my area, some

freeways allow bicycles, some don't. It would be completely incorrect
> to presume that those that don't are "more freeway-like".
>

OSM doesn't have a tag of "freeway", so I don't know what you're getting at.


> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.836649,144.801765&z=19&t=h&nmd=20100416
>
> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.790341,145.039779&z=19&t=k&nmd=20100416
>
> You tell me which of those is a highway=motorway and which is a
> highway=trunk.


I'm not familiar enough with how traffic works there to offer a guess.  The
exit/entrance ramps don't seem to provide for a bicycle lane in either
location.  Are bicycles allowed to travel in the same lanes as motor
vehicles?
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 15 June 2010 18:46, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 2010/6/15 Steve Bennett :
>> And since
>> there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane
>
>
> there is a huge difference IMO. The presence of a bike lane suggests
> that the road was thought (or later adapted) also for bicycle use, it
> will usually be convenient to enter and leave the bike lane, at
> crossings there might be special solutions for cyclists, ... whereas a
> shoulder is intended mainly for broken cars (at least that's the case
> in central Europe), cyclists and pedestrians might have the right to
> go there but they also might encounter big problems at crossings /
> exit-lanes and so on.

Regardless if cyclists are allowed or not, this would be an access
restriction, and wouldn't generally impact if a motorway should be
tagged as trunk or not. In general I would assume most motorways have
a minimum speed and try to keep high speed cars away from bikes, so
the default would be bicycle=no...

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/15 Steve Bennett :
> And since
> there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane


there is a huge difference IMO. The presence of a bike lane suggests
that the road was thought (or later adapted) also for bicycle use, it
will usually be convenient to enter and leave the bike lane, at
crossings there might be special solutions for cyclists, ... whereas a
shoulder is intended mainly for broken cars (at least that's the case
in central Europe), cyclists and pedestrians might have the right to
go there but they also might encounter big problems at crossings /
exit-lanes and so on.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Liz]

On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Steve Bennett wrote:
> Secondly...I really can't see how the presence or absence of bicycle
> restrictions changes the status of the road at all. In my area, some
> freeways allow bicycles, some don't. It would be completely incorrect
> to presume that those that don't are "more freeway-like".
I want to know for bicycle routing
I guess you understand

It doesn't alter the road from the car driver's point of view

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Steve Bennett]

On Mon, Jun 14, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Anthony  wrote:
> In any case, I don't think it should be called a motorway if bicycles are
> allowed.  I suppose if bicycles are restricted to the shoulder it's arguably
> still a motorway, but still, I think I'd rather see them tagged as
> highway=trunk.

This doesn't make much sense to me. For starters, in many places roads
with bike lanes prohibit cycling outside the bike lane. And since
there isn't much difference between a shoulder and a bike lane, it
doesn't make sense to distinguish between "bicycle=yes" and
"bicycle=shoulder_only".

Secondly...I really can't see how the presence or absence of bicycle
restrictions changes the status of the road at all. In my area, some
freeways allow bicycles, some don't. It would be completely incorrect
to presume that those that don't are "more freeway-like".

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.836649,144.801765&z=19&t=h&nmd=20100416

http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-37.790341,145.039779&z=19&t=k&nmd=20100416

You tell me which of those is a highway=motorway and which is a highway=trunk.

Steve

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Thomas Ineichen]

Am Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:59:19 +0200 schrieb Elena of Valhalla:
> Anyway, there are motorway tunnels like the Gotthard one that have
> just one shaft and one lane per direction, but they are few exceptions
> and can be easily tagged oneway=no.

JFTR: The Gotthard-Tunnel is a trunk, not a motorway.

Regards,
Thomas


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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> They should be tagged
> highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated.
>

 Based on that second pdf, wouldn't something like bicycle=shoulder_only be
more accurate?

In any case, I don't think it should be called a motorway if bicycles are
allowed.  I suppose if bicycles are restricted to the shoulder it's arguably
still a motorway, but still, I think I'd rather see them tagged as
highway=trunk.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/12 Nathan Edgars II :
> class than the segments that prohibit bikes. They should be tagged
> highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated.


+1, that's the point: tag the exception, and not bicycle=no on every
other piece of motorway. At least for  motorways this should be
easiely possible, while for the other roads it might be impossible to
define satisfying world wide default standards (thus requiring
explicit tagging, which at least has the advantage that it isn't
complex, it's simple also to newbies, it's unambigous, doesn't require
external information like the wiki, ... - the default standard could
be "yes" for all transport means in the actual medium (boat=yes on a
primary road doesn't make sense and motorcycle=yes on a river
neither)).

cheers,
Martin

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[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Nathan Edgars II]

John F. Eldredge wrote:
>If there are any motorways in the USA that allow bicycles, they would be 
>unusual, and probably be roads under local or state jurisdiction, not federal 
>(national) jurisdiction.

All highways in the US are under state or lower jurisdiction except
for those in the District of Columbia and other federal areas like
parks. The vast majority of Interstates are state-maintained;
city-maintained segments exist in Baltimore and New York City.

>The Interstate highway system, usually cited as the US equivalent of 
>motorways, does not allow bicycles, animal-drawn vehicles, or mopeds (all 
>because of their low speeds), but does allow motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, 
>buses, etc.

Completely incorrect in the Western U.S., where Interstates were often
built right on top of the old surface roads (and even where not,
conditions are such that cycling along the Interstate shoulder is
safe):
http://www.azdot.gov/Highways/Traffic/standards/PGP/TM1030.pdf
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/BIKEPED/docs/freeway_ban.pdf

Nobody who knows these roads would suggest that they're in a lower
class than the segments that prohibit bikes. They should be tagged
highway=motorway bicycle=yes or bicycle=designated.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/12 Roy Wallace :
>>
>> why not just service=motorway?
>
> To me, service=motorway implies that the feature "is a motorway". How
> would you describe the feature? - use that as the value.


+1, that's why it is considered appropriate: the service area is
indeed part of the motorway zone (e.g. there is motorway police and
not regional police).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 12 June 2010 09:07, Roy Wallace  wrote:
> To me, service=motorway implies that the feature "is a motorway". How
> would you describe the feature? - use that as the value.

It's a sub-tag for the service centres off motorway, or at least that
what I thought we were talking about.

highway=service
service=motorway

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Roy Wallace]

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 4:58 PM, John Smith  wrote:
>
> > As service=* tags for highway service seem to be in widespread use
> > these days, I'd rather propose service=motorway_service or
> > service=lay-by for this use. (or another term that is more accurate
> > for this kind of service ways)
>
> why not just service=motorway?

To me, service=motorway implies that the feature "is a motorway". How
would you describe the feature? - use that as the value.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 11 June 2010 15:22, Martin Simon  wrote:
> 2010/6/11 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :
>
>> good point actually. I think it would be better to tag these service
>> areas as motorway_service instead of a simple service. That would make
>> it a lot easier to see them if your on the motorway (-zoom level).
>> (highway=service, service=motorway might be better for consistency).
>
> As service=* tags for highway service seem to be in widespread use
> these days, I'd rather propose service=motorway_service or
> service=lay-by for this use. (or another term that is more accurate
> for this kind of service ways)

why not just service=motorway?

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Martin Simon]

2010/6/11 M∡rtin Koppenhoefer :

> good point actually. I think it would be better to tag these service
> areas as motorway_service instead of a simple service. That would make
> it a lot easier to see them if your on the motorway (-zoom level).
> (highway=service, service=motorway might be better for consistency).

As service=* tags for highway service seem to be in widespread use
these days, I'd rather propose service=motorway_service or
service=lay-by for this use. (or another term that is more accurate
for this kind of service ways)

-Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John F. Eldredge]

I knew that Interstates were patrolled by state police, but was under the 
(possibly mistaken) impression that many of the regulations concerning the use 
of the Interstate highway system were set by the Federal government, since it 
set up the Interstate highway system and provides the majority of the funding 
for it.  I had not heard of any Interstate highways where bicycles were 
allowed; all that I have seen prohibited bicycle use.  Admittedly, it has been 
several decades since I was last on the US West Coast.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: Anthony 
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:05:37 
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Simone Saviolo
wrote:

> IMO, if the law defines motorways to have certain features, these
> should be implied.
>

How about the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic:

[quote]"Motorway" means a road specially designed and built for motor
traffic [plus other stuff]...[/quote]

[quote]
On motorways and, if so provided in domestic legislation, on special
approach roads to and exit roads from motorways:

(a) The use of the road shall be prohibited to pedestrians, animals,
cycles, mopeds unless they are treated as motor cycles, and all vehicles
other
than motor vehicles and their trailers, and to motor vehicles or
motor-vehicle
trailers which are incapable, by virtue of their design, of attaining on a
flat
road a speed specified by domestic legislation
[/quote]


On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 11:23 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> If there are any motorways in the USA that allow bicycles, they would be
> unusual, and probably be roads under local or state jurisdiction, not
> federal (national) jurisdiction.  The Interstate highway system, usually
> cited as the US equivalent of motorways, does not allow bicycles,
> animal-drawn vehicles, or mopeds (all because of their low speeds), but does
> allow motorcycles, automobiles, trucks, buses, etc.
>

That's incorrect.  There are interstates in the US which allow bicycles.
And I'm not sure what you mean about a road being under federal
jurisdiction.  The laws which apply to the vast majority of interstate
highways (i.e. ones which are not within a federal enclave) are state laws.
The police that patrol these highways are state police.

See http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/faq.htm

[quote]Each State establishes the operating rules that determine which
vehicles are allowed on the Interstate highways under their jurisdiction.
Most States do not allow bicyclists on the Interstate shoulders, but bicycle
use is permitted in some States, particularly in the west where there is
less traffic and where good alternative routes may not exist for
bicycles.[/quote]
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Anthony]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Pieren  wrote:

> It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere else.
>

The US does not recognize "motorway" as a designation.  So a motorway is
whatever we define it to be.  I'd say that by definition a motorway does not
allow non-motor vehicles.

Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in US, we have
> to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ?
>

There are lots of highways in the US which allow bicycles.  There are even
interstate highways in the US which allow bicycles.  But I wouldn't call
them motorways.
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/10 Elena of Valhalla :
> On 6/10/10, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_334.svg&filetimestamp=20060506221325
>>
>> everything in between is a motorway.
>
> In Italy e.g. the end of motorway sign (like the one above, but green)
> is placed at the end of the "area di competenza autostradale" and this
> includes motorway_links (and strictly speaking also service areas,
> that are not even tagged as motorway_something)


good point actually. I think it would be better to tag these service
areas as motorway_service instead of a simple service. That would make
it a lot easier to see them if your on the motorway (-zoom level).
(highway=service, service=motorway might be better for consistency).

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Elena of Valhalla]

On 6/10/10, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> in Germany there can be speed limits on the motorway or not, that
> doesn't imply anything. Motorways start at this sign:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_330.svg&filetimestamp=20060307164045
> and end at this sign:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_334.svg&filetimestamp=20060506221325
>
> everything in between is a motorway.

In Italy e.g. the end of motorway sign (like the one above, but green)
is placed at the end of the "area di competenza autostradale" and this
includes motorway_links (and strictly speaking also service areas,
that are not even tagged as motorway_something)

the speed limit is not something that defines whether something is a
motorway or not, just an hint to understand whether the situation is
that of a long motorway_link or not

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: elena.valha...@gmail.com

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/10 Pieren :
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, fly  wrote:
>>
>> yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends
>> of
>> motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some
>> have
>> no physical barrier in between.
>>
>> This situation can sometimes last for years.
>>
>
> Hmm.. But that's an exception which shouldn't influence the tagging of a
> normal motorway. It's like asking to add oneway=no in all residentials or
> unclassified because sometime it can be oneway=true.
>
>>
>> If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only
>> motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes
>
> Oops, I didn't see the implied access=no.
>
>>
>> Maybe we should imply access=motor_vehicle,  mofas=no, moped=no,
>>
>
> Agree. You forgot tractors.


and snow mobiles, boats, electric bicyles, and and and

I don't think it's a good idea to tag in this way.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/10 Elena of Valhalla :
> On 6/10/10, fly  wrote:
>> Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren:
>>>     1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.
>>> not in Europe
>> yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of
>> motorways.
>
> End of motorways that aren't oneway don't look like highway=motorway
> to me, but rather highway=motorway_link. Do they have motorway speed
> limits, or lower ones?


in Germany there can be speed limits on the motorway or not, that
doesn't imply anything. Motorways start at this sign:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_330.svg&filetimestamp=20060307164045
and end at this sign:
http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Datei:Zeichen_334.svg&filetimestamp=20060506221325

everything in between is a motorway.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Pieren]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, fly  wrote:

>
> yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of
> motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some
> have
> no physical barrier in between.
>
> This situation can sometimes last for years.
>
>
Hmm.. But that's an exception which shouldn't influence the tagging of a
normal motorway. It's like asking to add oneway=no in all residentials or
unclassified because sometime it can be oneway=true.


> If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only
> motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes
>

Oops, I didn't see the implied access=no.


>
> Maybe we should imply access=motor_vehicle,  mofas=no, moped=no,
>
>
Agree. You forgot tractors.

Pieren
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 11 June 2010 00:48, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>> from your suggestion lanes=2 should be implied aswell.
>
>
> I'm against implying this. If there is a key lanes=2 I know that
> someone checked this and put it. If there is nothing, it is unknown.
> Simple as that.

Using that logic you wouldn't be able to imply anything from missing tags...

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Simone Saviolo]

In Italy, access to motorways is forbidden to any vehicle not able to
reach 80 km/h on a level floor, and motorbikes and motorcycles under
250cc are excluded too. The motorway must be a dual carriageway (which
implies oneway=yes) with at least two lanes per carriageway. There may
be sections with deviations, closed lanes, etc. because of work in
progress and construction sites, but these are usually temporary.

IMO, if the law defines motorways to have certain features, these
should be implied.

Regards,

Simone

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John F. Eldredge]

If there are any motorways in the USA that allow bicycles, they would be 
unusual, and probably be roads under local or state jurisdiction, not federal 
(national) jurisdiction.  The Interstate highway system, usually cited as the 
US equivalent of motorways, does not allow bicycles, animal-drawn vehicles, or 
mopeds (all because of their low speeds), but does allow motorcycles, 
automobiles, trucks, buses, etc.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

-Original Message-
From: Pieren 
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:23:39 
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Elena of Valhalla]

On 6/10/10, fly  wrote:
> Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren:
>> 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.
>> not in Europe
> yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of
> motorways.

End of motorways that aren't oneway don't look like highway=motorway
to me, but rather highway=motorway_link. Do they have motorway speed
limits, or lower ones?

> They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some
> have
> no physical barrier in between.
>
> This situation can sometimes last for years.

This is a temporary situation, however, so I believe it is better to
tag it with some work-in-progress / under-construction tag, rather
than a single way.

Anyway, there are motorway tunnels like the Gotthard one that have
just one shaft and one lane per direction, but they are few exceptions
and can be easily tagged oneway=no.

-- 
Elena ``of Valhalla''

homepage: http://www.trueelena.org
email: elena.valha...@gmail.com

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2010/6/10 fly :
> If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only
> motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes


where do you get this from? IMHO access=no is not implied.

> from your suggestion lanes=2 should be implied aswell.


I'm against implying this. If there is a key lanes=2 I know that
someone checked this and put it. If there is nothing, it is unknown.
Simple as that.


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 11 June 2010 00:41, fly  wrote:
> yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of
> motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some have
> no physical barrier in between.

I wouldn't consider that section to be motorway while it's under
construction, I'd downgrade it, and I have done that on roads in
Australia that under construction until the construction is finished.

> I am not against implying tags, but you have to be careful, and they have to 
> be
> worked over, sometimes.

This is where the proposal for applying defs to boundaries comes in,
that way you can stipulate implied values on a small scale, rather
than globally.

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[fly]

Am 10.06.2010 15:23, schrieb Pieren:
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:51 PM, fly  > wrote:
> 
> 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.
> 
> 
> not in Europe

yes, in Germany. If the Road is in/under cronstuction and also some ends of
motorways. They are sign as motorways but the only have one lane and some have
no physical barrier in between.

This situation can sometimes last for years.

> 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on
> motorways, as
> long as it is not tagged seperatly !
> 
> 
> why ?

If access=no is implied, you need motorcycle=yes, cause right no only
motorcar=yes is implied. Better would be to imply motor_vehicle=yes

> 
> 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a  motorways by foot or bicycle ?
> 
> 
> It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere
> else. Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in
> US, we have to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ?


I am not against implying tags, but you have to be careful, and they have to be
worked over, sometimes.

Maybe we should imply access=motor_vehicle,  mofas=no, moped=no, instead of
access=no, motorcars=yes, hgv=yes
or just use motorroad=yes

from your suggestion lanes=2 should be implied aswell.


We also need to point out regional differences better than it is down so far !

cu
colliar

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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[Pieren]

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 2:51 PM, fly  wrote:

1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.
>

not in Europe


> 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways,
> as
> long as it is not tagged seperatly !
>

why ?


> 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a  motorways by foot or bicycle ?
>

It was said here that some motorways allow bicycle in US. But nowhere else.
Does it mean that for 3 highways which require a bicycle=yes in US, we have
to add bicycle=no to thousands others worldwide ?

Pieren
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Re: [Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[John Smith]

On 10 June 2010 22:51, fly  wrote:
> Hi
>
> I think it would be better to tag motorway with motorroad and oneway yes and
> stip of all the implied tag.

Anything implied doesn't need to be added, removing it would save
space, similar to the removal of unneeded or unwanted TIGER tags from
nodes etc.

> 1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.

Maybe so, but oneway=yes, lanes=2 should be the default for motorways
in most countries

> 2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as
> long as it is not tagged seperatly !

Why not? I didn't think there were any implied access=* tags?

> 3. Maybe your are allowed to use a  motorways by foot or bicycle ?

This would vary by countries...

> Maybe surface=paved is ok, but there are many different surface=*.

Most motorways in most countries are paved unless they are under construction...

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[Tagging] highway=motorway and motorroad (implies)

[fly]

Hi

I think it would be better to tag motorway with motorroad and oneway yes and
stip of all the implied tag.

1. I know some motorways which are not oneway.
2. Right now your are not allowed to ride with a motorcycle on motorways, as
long as it is not tagged seperatly !
3. Maybe your are allowed to use a  motorways by foot or bicycle ?

Maybe surface=paved is ok, but there are many different surface=*.

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