Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 09, 2009 at 11:52:30AM +1100, Steve Bennett wrote: Second comment: As always, its not that easy. You can't just read osm.xml. At least you have to take the osm2pgsql config into account. Also you probably Sure, can you give me a few pointers? I haven't got Mapnik or running. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osm2pgsql http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/utils/export/osm2pgsql/ People can check it, improve it Well, improve the generation method. Hand tweaking would be the wrong approach. Thats what I meant. and get some experience about its usefulness. Just an idea: If you really want to check what the renderer renders and what not, how about creating a osm test file with all the different tags ins there, send it through the renderer and check whether the bitmap is empty. If it contains something in the right spot, you know the tag is supported. This is totally renderer and style agnostic reasonably easy to automate. Yes...but from what I gather, getting Mapnik installed locally is quite complex. Or maybe I'm confusing it with getting slippymap/tileserver installed. I'm new to all this. Its not that difficult if you have some Linux background. The most difficult part is getting the database setup right, the a little fiddly. But it has to be done only once for this idea. :-) Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
Erik Johansson wrote: Yes but people say don't tag for the renderer which a horrible meme, I say always tag for the renderer. If there is not visual feedbackyou are doing it wrong (except in keepright). Only using a tag because it appears in a renderer style sheet (or conversely not using one just because it doesn't) is a pretty good definition of tagging for the renderer. Now, if that tag isn't an accurate description of the feature you're mapping, then you're doing it wrong, even if it does produce an effect on the map. Note that not all tags *have* a visual representation, so relying on having visual feedback to know whether you've done something right can be misleading. Equally, not all applications of OSM data involve rendering a map (geocoding, routing) so choosing a tag purely based on its visual effect can result in errors in those applications. By all means check the rendered map after you've done some mapping to see if you've made a mistake somewhere, but please, please don't change the tag you use for a feature purely to make it render in a particular way (or at all) on a particular renderer. If the renderer doesn't support your tag, help the person running that renderer to add support for it. Jonathan ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Peter Childs pchi...@bcs.org wrote: By Don't Tag for the renderer we generally mean don't tag for one particular renderer, Its like writing a website for IE that does not work in Firefox; Not a good idea. Nice analogy! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 12:42 AM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote: tag for what the renderer should be, not what the renderer is. +1 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Thu, Dec 10, 2009 at 10:15 AM, Erik Johansson erjo...@gmail.com wrote: leisure=golf_course: bunker: natural=beach water: natural=water start point (tee?): highway=pedestrian Excellent example. I'd tag the water that way (and possibly also golf:water_hazard or whatever), but tagging the bunker as a beach is a stretch. We should recognise that not all renderers will ever support all tags (do we really expect widespread support for golf course holes?), so we should use fall-back tags. natural=water is not as specific, for golfers, as lateral water hazard, but it's going to have very widespread support. So a golf-specific renderer should expect water areas that are tagged as both natural=water and some more specific tag. IMVHO. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:33 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Information about tag support is a *good* thing, not a bad one. I now realise that Mapnik doesn't recognise *any* sport=* tags, but that's not going to stop me using them. But it will make me be careful to always use it with a tag that it *does* support as well. See how this is beneficial? I don't see how this is beneficial. As others have said, it just encourages tagging for the *current implementation of* the renderer, as opposed to tagging with a long-term view. I strongly think taggers should not be influenced by the current implementation of a handful of renderers. This yes/no information may be beneficial, however, to those wanting to improve renderer style files, i.e. to see which features they have yet to consider rendering. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote: On Tuesday 08 December 2009 17:53:33 Anthony wrote: Information about tag support is a *good* thing, not a bad one. I now realise that Mapnik doesn't recognise *any* sport=* tags, but that's not going to stop me using them. But it will make me be careful to always use it with a tag that it *does* support as well. See how this is beneficial? Actually, I think that's a good example of the harmfulness in tagging for a renderer. We shouldn't have redundant data in the database, at least when this is at all feasible. Wow, so now it is already harmfull to osm to know you have to map leisure=sports_centre|pitch|track|etc in addition to sport=* to have it show up with renderer X, but with renderer Y there would be no need for that. No, sorry for the confusion. The wiki is clear about sport=*: Since this is a non-physical tag it should be combined with one of these (physical) tags It has nothing to do with the renderer, though. In fact, the wiki specifically cautions you not to worry about the renderer: Though most of these tags are rendered when used stand-alone, a combination with a physical tag is strongly encouraged to avoid misunderstandings. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 4:32 AM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote: First comment though: Please, please start making a distinction between the rendering software (Mapnik) and the style file is uses and the map it creates, respectively. This is already problematic. It should not be called Mapnik-support, but something like Default OSM Map-support. We should come up with nice name for the default map. Sorry, you're absolutely right. The confusion arises from the fact that the Default OSM Mapnik layer on the main openstreetmap.org view is called Mapnik. It probably shouldn't be. Second comment: As always, its not that easy. You can't just read osm.xml. At least you have to take the osm2pgsql config into account. Also you probably Sure, can you give me a few pointers? I haven't got Mapnik or running. People can check it, improve it Well, improve the generation method. Hand tweaking would be the wrong approach. and get some experience about its usefulness. Just an idea: If you really want to check what the renderer renders and what not, how about creating a osm test file with all the different tags ins there, send it through the renderer and check whether the bitmap is empty. If it contains something in the right spot, you know the tag is supported. This is totally renderer and style agnostic reasonably easy to automate. Yes...but from what I gather, getting Mapnik installed locally is quite complex. Or maybe I'm confusing it with getting slippymap/tileserver installed. I'm new to all this. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see how this is beneficial. As others have said, it just encourages tagging for the *current implementation of* the renderer, as opposed to tagging with a long-term view. Ok, can someone point me to the policy that says don't tag for the renderer? I can't find it. It keeps being quoted like a fundamental axiom. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On 09/12/2009 01:27, Steve Bennett wrote: On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 9:09 AM, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com mailto:waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I don't see how this is beneficial. As others have said, it just encourages tagging for the *current implementation of* the renderer, as opposed to tagging with a long-term view. Ok, can someone point me to the policy that says don't tag for the renderer? I can't find it. It keeps being quoted like a fundamental axiom. See these pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer As that page says, its probably more acurrate to say Don't deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer. Craig ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 2:02 PM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: See these pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer As that page says, its probably more acurrate to say Don't deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer. Whew, that's a relief. I would never suggest tagging doing that. Nor would listing the tags currently recognised by any renderer encourage anyone to do that. Incidentally: The following pages link to *Tagging for the rendererhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer *: - Good practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice (← linkshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHeretarget=Good_practice ) - Talk:Interstate Highways Relationshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Interstate_Highways_Relations (← linkshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHeretarget=Talk:Interstate_Highways_Relations ) - RU:Good practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RU:Good_practice (← linkshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHeretarget=RU:Good_practice ) - Talk:Proposed features/orchardhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/orchard (← linkshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHeretarget=Talk:Proposed_features/orchard ) - Ja:Good practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ja:Good_practice (← linkshttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHeretarget=Ja:Good_practice ) Could I politely suggest that more wiki linking is required? :) Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] A first step towards bringing the wiki and tool support closer together
On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Craig Wallace craig...@fastmail.fm wrote: See these pages: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Good_practice http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tagging_for_the_renderer As that page says, its probably more acurrate to say Don't deliberately tag incorrectly for the renderer. Yup, but to tag *correctly* for the renderer is simply to tag correctly. :P ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
