Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Kevin Broderick]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 9:22 AM Colin Smale  wrote:

> Despite the minimal difference the website does indicate that one side is
> the "top station" and the other side is the "bottom station", but that's
> probably not a valid source. Anyway, suppose they were both at exactly the
> same altitude. What's the intrinsic difference between top station and
> bottom station? The location of the drive motors perhaps? That would be an
> objective attribute that we could put into OSM (motor=yes/no?)
>

IMO, I think that tagging drive and return terminals is appropriate, but
the presence or lack of a drive is completely irrelevant to top vs
bottom—some aerialways are top-drive, others are bottom-drive.

If the British English (and thus OSM standard) word used for the facility
at either end is "station", I'd suggest
aerialway:station=drive
aerialway:station=mid
aerialway:station=return
would be appropriate.

-- 
Kevin Broderick
k...@kevinbroderick.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-13 14:49, dktue wrote:

> I think it's easy for a mapper to determine if a station is a bottom_station 
> or a upper_station even if he doesn't know the exact elevation.

I would advise against such generalisations - it depends so much on the
circumstances and the mapper in question. OSM prefers objective data. 

This one has a difference of only 40m. Optically/subjectively it's
pretty much dead level. I have done it many times. 

http://www.ski-aravis.com/component/content/article/53-remonteeslcl/165-clusaz-telepherique-transval-057.html


Despite the minimal difference the website does indicate that one side
is the "top station" and the other side is the "bottom station", but
that's probably not a valid source. Anyway, suppose they were both at
exactly the same altitude. What's the intrinsic difference between top
station and bottom station? The location of the drive motors perhaps?
That would be an objective attribute that we could put into OSM
(motor=yes/no?)___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

I think it's easy for a mapper to determine if a station is a 
bottom_station or a upper_station even if he doesn't know the exact 
elevation.


Am 13.08.2020 um 14:28 schrieb Colin Smale:


On 2020-08-13 14:07, dktue wrote:

I think that it's quite hard for data consumers (again: think of an 
overpass-query to find all mid-stations) to determine which role a 
station has. Like Martin said: Why not just solve the (huge!) special 
case of mountain aerialways where we really have one bottom_station, 
zero or more mid_station and one upper_station?


Because cases that don't obviously fit that model will remain 
untagged, or get subjectively/wrongly tagged with this model or some 
other tags. There are many cases of arialways that start and finish at 
roughly the same level. Do they have two bottom stations, or two top 
stations, or do you force someone to make a judgement call as to which 
is slightly higher than the other?


If you want to find all mid-stations, do you want to find ALL 
mid-stations or are you happy with MOST or MANY or SOME?




Modelling reality is all about what to leave out. If top-stations, 
mid-stations and bottom-stations can be reliably derived from 
elevation and topology then there is no need to add a more explicit tag.



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Colin Smale]

On 2020-08-13 14:07, dktue wrote:

> I think that it's quite hard for data consumers (again: think of an 
> overpass-query to find all mid-stations) to determine which role a station 
> has. Like Martin said: Why not just solve the (huge!) special case of 
> mountain aerialways where we really have one bottom_station, zero or more 
> mid_station and one upper_station?

Because cases that don't obviously fit that model will remain untagged,
or get subjectively/wrongly tagged with this model or some other tags.
There are many cases of arialways that start and finish at roughly the
same level. Do they have two bottom stations, or two top stations, or do
you force someone to make a judgement call as to which is slightly
higher than the other? 

If you want to find all mid-stations, do you want to find ALL
mid-stations or are you happy with MOST or MANY or SOME? 

Modelling reality is all about what to leave out. If top-stations,
mid-stations and bottom-stations can be reliably derived from elevation
and topology then there is no need to add a more explicit tag.___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

I think that it's quite hard for data consumers (again: think of an 
overpass-query to find all mid-stations) to determine which role a 
station has. Like Martin said: Why not just solve the (huge!) special 
case of mountain aerialways where we really have one bottom_station, 
zero or more mid_station and one upper_station?


Am 12.08.2020 um 22:58 schrieb Colin Smale:


So what is wrong with ele=* on the stations and the topography of the 
line? Completely (for OSM purposes) objective and uncontroversial. The 
data consumer/renderer can make their own mind up about nomenclature. 
Many of these lifts go up to go down, or go down to go up, as they 
cross ridges and valleys. One man's incline on a segment of the route 
is another man's decline based on the station altitudes. Let's tag the 
facts, and not subjective naming.


On 2020-08-12 22:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 12. Aug 2020, at 21:39, Yves > wrote:


Alexey, you're right, anyway physical properties like incline are 
better tagged on way than on relations.



and horizontal aerialways aren't completely unheard of either. The 
incline solution works only for a subset of aerialways. Generally, 
for horizontal aerialways top and bottom / valley do not apply, i.e. 
the original question is directly related to a specific (frequent) 
configuration: an aerialway which surmounts a significant height 
difference. We do not have to find a universal solution if the 
question relates only to this special case.


Cheers Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Colin Smale]

So what is wrong with ele=* on the stations and the topography of the
line? Completely (for OSM purposes) objective and uncontroversial. The
data consumer/renderer can make their own mind up about nomenclature.
Many of these lifts go up to go down, or go down to go up, as they cross
ridges and valleys. One man's incline on a segment of the route is
another man's decline based on the station altitudes. Let's tag the
facts, and not subjective naming. 

On 2020-08-12 22:47, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> sent from a phone
> 
>> On 12. Aug 2020, at 21:39, Yves  wrote:
>> 
>> Alexey, you're right, anyway physical properties like incline are better 
>> tagged on way than on relations.
> 
> and horizontal aerialways aren't completely unheard of either. The incline 
> solution works only for a subset of aerialways. Generally, for horizontal 
> aerialways top and bottom / valley do not apply, i.e. the original question 
> is directly related to a specific (frequent) configuration: an aerialway 
> which surmounts a significant height difference. We do not have to find a 
> universal solution if the question relates only to this special case.
> 
> Cheers Martin 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 12. Aug 2020, at 21:39, Yves  wrote:
> 
> Alexey, you're right, anyway physical properties like incline are better 
> tagged on way than on relations.


and horizontal aerialways aren’t completely unheard of either. The incline 
solution works only for a subset of aerialways. Generally, for horizontal 
aerialways top and bottom / valley do not apply, i.e. the original question is 
directly related to a specific (frequent) configuration: an aerialway which 
surmounts a significant height difference. We do not have to find a universal 
solution if the question relates only to this special case.

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Yves]

Alexey, you're right, anyway physical properties like incline are better tagged 
on way than on relations.
Yves ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Alexey Zakharenkov]

My imagination draws an aerialway that goes over a hill, with or without a mid-station at the top. So, potentially incline is not even a property of a route=aerialway relation, but of an aerialway way segment. 12.08.2020, 18:57, "Kevin Broderick" :In the case of Gaislachkoglbahn, it appears to be two separate tramways (and tagged as such), with adjacent terminals. If the carriers (gondola cabins, tram cars, chairs, etc) don't continue through the station, I think it would be a drive or return terminal, not a mid-station; that particular case would be two terminals (for two different tramways) housed in the same building. Bearing in mind subway mapping practice, this would rather be mapped as one station and two stop_area relationscombined into a transfer (stop_area_group), the two station objects being stop_positions instead. Best regards,Alexey Zakharenkov ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Joseph Eisenberg]

There are 2 lines of the Metrocable gondola system in Medellín, Colombia
which have 4 stations each (one has 5 stations, but that actually appears
to be 2 different cable loops)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrocable_(Medell%C3%ADn)

The variety of different types of "aerialway" is quite large, since there
are urban systems and tourist systems in flat regions (theme parks) as well
as mountain areas.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 8:04 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> 1) is bottom station always in valley?
> (This should be fixable)
>
> 2) is there case of 2 and more middle
> stations?
>
> 3) is there case of one station being both
> top and bottom station at once?
>
> Also, it uses single known tag, not
> new discussion purpose ones.
>
> Though, yes processing would be
> much more complicated.
>
> I would consider also tagging elevation
> (ele tag from what I remember).
>
>
> 12 Aug 2020, 16:31 by em...@daniel-korn.de:
>
> Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:
>
> dktue:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper
> stations of
> aerialways in OpenStreetMap.
>
> Usually an aerialway consists of
>
>  * one valley station
>  * zero or more mid stations
>  * one upper station (or "mountain station")
>
> What do you think you tagging this information with
>
>
> You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down
>
>  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station
>
> ?
>
> Cheers
> dktue
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station
>
> That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to extract
> this information (think of an overpass-query to find all mid stations).
> Would there be any advantage in following your suggestions instead of
> explicit tagging?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Kevin Broderick]

In the case of Gaislachkoglbahn, it appears to be two separate tramways
(and tagged as such), with adjacent terminals. If the carriers (gondola
cabins, tram cars, chairs, etc) don't continue through the station, I think
it would be a drive or return terminal, not a mid-station; that particular
case would be two terminals (for two different tramways) housed in the same
building.

I'm not aware of any circuit-shaped tramways where the drive/return is
actually the same structure.

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:48 AM dktue  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> 1) maybe "station=lower_station" would be clearer
> 2) I couldn't find any real-world example
> 3) Probably this would be the definition of a mid-station.
>
> Interesting example:
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1613091788
>
> Here within the same building we have "Talstation" ("valley station") and
> "Bergstation" ("mountain station") of the aerialway "Gaislachkoglbahn"
> wheres the arealway itself is separated in to sections name
> "Gaislachkoglbahn I" (lower) and "Gaislachkoglbahn II" (upper). I think
> because people have to get out and change the aerialway to proceed furtuher
> to the top it's correct that this is not a mid-station. I would expect from
> a mid-station that I can get off but I might be able to stay and go further.
>
> Cheers
> dktue
>
> Am 12.08.2020 um 17:02 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:
>
> 1) is bottom station always in valley?
> (This should be fixable)
>
> 2) is there case of 2 and more middle
> stations?
>
> 3) is there case of one station being both
> top and bottom station at once?
>
> Also, it uses single known tag, not
> new discussion purpose ones.
>
> Though, yes processing would be
> much more complicated.
>
> I would consider also tagging elevation
> (ele tag from what I remember).
>
>
> 12 Aug 2020, 16:31 by em...@daniel-korn.de:
>
> Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:
>
> dktue:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper
> stations of
> aerialways in OpenStreetMap.
>
> Usually an aerialway consists of
>
>  * one valley station
>  * zero or more mid stations
>  * one upper station (or "mountain station")
>
> What do you think you tagging this information with
>
>
> You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down
>
>  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station
>
> ?
>
> Cheers
> dktue
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station
>
> That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to extract
> this information (think of an overpass-query to find all mid stations).
> Would there be any advantage in following your suggestions instead of
> explicit tagging?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing 
> listTagging@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Kevin Broderick
k...@kevinbroderick.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

If the concern is for routing, that's a slightly bigger challenge—some 
tramways load only at one end, some load at both (e.g. the gondola 
linked above), others load primarily at one end with limited loading 
at the other in various special conditions, sometimes event-specific, 
and often with different capacities (many, if not most, ski lifts have 
higher uphill than downhill capacities). one_way=* seems to be a 
possible solution, but I don't know how you'd tag "one_way=yes; except 
when hosting a wedding at the top, or for employees to get down at the 
end of the shift"



I think that aspect is perfectly covered with

aerialway:access=entry/exit/both/no

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Kevin Broderick]

>From an 'information about aerial tramways" standpoint, I believe that it
would be preferable to label the drive, midstation, and return terminals as
such. While they are often for vertical-oriented transport, aerialways are
sometimes used for horizontal transport, e.g.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46351339#map=18/44.53063/-72.78456=D
terminal=drive
terminal=return
terminal=mid

It is worth noting that ski lifts are often described as "top-drive" or
"bottom-drive" (i.e. the powered bullwheel is at the top in some cases and
at the bottom in others), but it doesn't take a ton of tramway knowledge to
figure out which is which (drive infrastructure is usually pretty obvious).

If the concern is for routing, that's a slightly bigger challenge—some
tramways load only at one end, some load at both (e.g. the gondola linked
above), others load primarily at one end with limited loading at the other
in various special conditions, sometimes event-specific, and often with
different capacities (many, if not most, ski lifts have higher uphill than
downhill capacities). one_way=* seems to be a possible solution, but I
don't know how you'd tag "one_way=yes; except when hosting a wedding at the
top, or for employees to get down at the end of the shift"

On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 11:04 AM Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> 1) is bottom station always in valley?
> (This should be fixable)
>
> 2) is there case of 2 and more middle
> stations?
>
> 3) is there case of one station being both
> top and bottom station at once?
>
> Also, it uses single known tag, not
> new discussion purpose ones.
>
> Though, yes processing would be
> much more complicated.
>
> I would consider also tagging elevation
> (ele tag from what I remember).
>
>
> 12 Aug 2020, 16:31 by em...@daniel-korn.de:
>
> Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:
>
> dktue:
>
> Hi,
>
> I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper
> stations of
> aerialways in OpenStreetMap.
>
> Usually an aerialway consists of
>
>  * one valley station
>  * zero or more mid stations
>  * one upper station (or "mountain station")
>
> What do you think you tagging this information with
>
>
> You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down
>
>  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station
>
> ?
>
> Cheers
> dktue
>
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station
>
> That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to extract
> this information (think of an overpass-query to find all mid stations).
> Would there be any advantage in following your suggestions instead of
> explicit tagging?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Kevin Broderick
k...@kevinbroderick.com
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

Hi,

1) maybe "station=lower_station" would be clearer
2) I couldn't find any real-world example
3) Probably this would be the definition of a mid-station.

Interesting example:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1613091788

Here within the same building we have "Talstation" ("valley station") 
and "Bergstation" ("mountain station") of the aerialway 
"Gaislachkoglbahn" wheres the arealway itself is separated in to 
sections name "Gaislachkoglbahn I" (lower) and "Gaislachkoglbahn II" 
(upper). I think because people have to get out and change the aerialway 
to proceed furtuher to the top it's correct that this is not a 
mid-station. I would expect from a mid-station that I can get off but I 
might be able to stay and go further.


Cheers
dktue

Am 12.08.2020 um 17:02 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging:

1) is bottom station always in valley?
(This should be fixable)

2) is there case of 2 and more middle
stations?

3) is there case of one station being both
top and bottom station at once?

Also, it uses single known tag, not
new discussion purpose ones.

Though, yes processing would be
much more complicated.

I would consider also tagging elevation
(ele tag from what I remember).


12 Aug 2020, 16:31 by em...@daniel-korn.de:

Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:

dktue:

Hi,

I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley
and upper stations of
aerialways in OpenStreetMap.

Usually an aerialway consists of

 * one valley station
 * zero or more mid stations
 * one upper station (or "mountain station")

What do you think you tagging this information with


You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down

 station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station

?

Cheers
dktue

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station

That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to
extract this information (think of an overpass-query to find all
mid stations). Would there be any advantage in following your
suggestions instead of explicit tagging?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

1) is bottom station always in valley?
(This should be fixable)

2) is there case of 2 and more middle
stations?

3) is there case of one station being both
top and bottom station at once?

Also, it uses single known tag, not
new discussion purpose ones.

Though, yes processing would be
much more complicated.

I would consider also tagging elevation
(ele tag from what I remember).

12 Aug 2020, 16:31 by em...@daniel-korn.de:

> Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:
>
>> dktue:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper stations 
>>> of
>>> aerialways in OpenStreetMap.
>>>
>>> Usually an aerialway consists of
>>>
>>>   * one valley station
>>>   * zero or more mid stations
>>>   * one upper station (or "mountain station")
>>>
>>> What do you think you tagging this information with
>>>
>>
>> You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down
>>
>>>  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station
>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> dktue
>>>
>>> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station
>>>
> That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to extract this 
> information (think of an overpass-query to find all mid stations). Would 
> there be any advantage in following your suggestions instead of explicit 
> tagging?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

Am 12.08.2020 um 16:28 schrieb Niels Elgaard Larsen:

dktue:

Hi,

I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper stations of
aerialways in OpenStreetMap.

Usually an aerialway consists of

  * one valley station
  * zero or more mid stations
  * one upper station (or "mountain station")

What do you think you tagging this information with


You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down


  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station

?

Cheers
dktue

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station

That's true but I think it would be very hard for consumers to extract 
this information (think of an overpass-query to find all mid stations). 
Would there be any advantage in following your suggestions instead of 
explicit tagging?


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Aerialway stations

[Niels Elgaard Larsen]

dktue:
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper stations of
> aerialways in OpenStreetMap.
> 
> Usually an aerialway consists of
> 
>  * one valley station
>  * zero or more mid stations
>  * one upper station (or "mountain station")
> 
> What do you think you tagging this information with


You could tag the aerialway with incline=up/down

>  station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station
> 
> ?
> 
> Cheers
> dktue
> 
> [1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging


-- 
Niels Elgaard Larsen

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Aerialway stations

[dktue]

Hi,

I was wondering why there's no way to distinguish valley and upper 
stations of aerialways in OpenStreetMap.


Usually an aerialway consists of

 * one valley station
 * zero or more mid stations
 * one upper station (or "mountain station")

What do you think you tagging this information with

 station=valley_station/mid_station/upper_station

?

Cheers
dktue

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aerialway=station

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging